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| author | Nicolas Vigier <boklm@mageia.org> | 2013-04-14 13:46:12 +0000 |
|---|---|---|
| committer | Nicolas Vigier <boklm@mageia.org> | 2013-04-14 13:46:12 +0000 |
| commit | 1be510f9529cb082f802408b472a77d074b394c0 (patch) | |
| tree | b175f9d5fcb107576dabc768e7bd04d4a3e491a0 /zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130 | |
| parent | fa5098cf210b23ab4f419913e28af7b1b07dafb2 (diff) | |
| download | archives-master.tar archives-master.tar.gz archives-master.tar.bz2 archives-master.tar.xz archives-master.zip | |
Diffstat (limited to 'zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130')
43 files changed, 5622 insertions, 0 deletions
diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001527.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001527.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..871d6436c --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001527.html @@ -0,0 +1,88 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C1291074731.8266.302.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001528.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Michael Scherer</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C1291074731.8266.302.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">misc at zarb.org + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 00:52:11 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001528.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1527">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1527">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1527">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1527">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Le lundi 29 novembre 2010 à 23:20 +0100, nicolas vigier a écrit : +><i> On Mon, 29 Nov 2010, andre999 wrote: +</I>><i> +</I>><i> > The fact that Mandriva didn't control what went into main is a large part +</I>><i> > of their problem. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Mandriva controled what went into main. +</I> +Not really, or not much. +( or at least, it was not apparent and public for outsiders ). + +Things got in main because something required it for BuildRequires. The +only exception were when someone decide to move it ( subversion, nginx, +django, catalyst ( because someone said "web 2.0 is something we should +support" )) and that no one told "this should be reverted". + +In practice, the divide was done several years ago, and the rest just +got there for mechanical reasons. The only case of a refused package to +go to main was network-manager, refused by fcrozat. And this caused lots +of issue for building kde network-manager extension, and rendered the +package less useful for kde users. Some people didn't like this, and the +decision will likely change soon. + +And some pretty big packages ended in main ( like the whole java stack ) +when no one in mandriva could maintain it ( as the gcj bug I gave +showed ). + +So if Mandriva controlled what went into main, no one gave me directives +when I received the privileges to run rpmctl ( ie to move package to +main ). + +-- +Michael Scherer + +</PRE> + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001528.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1527">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1527">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1527">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1527">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001528.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001528.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..c88095af3 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001528.html @@ -0,0 +1,98 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF44E0B.6040404%40laposte.net%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001527.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001535.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>andre999</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF44E0B.6040404%40laposte.net%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">andr55 at laposte.net + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 02:06:19 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001527.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001535.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1528">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1528">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1528">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1528">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>nicolas vigier a écrit : +><i> On Mon, 29 Nov 2010, andre999 wrote: +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>>><i> The supposed advantages of discarding a set of repositories over having an +</I>>><i> obvious sandbox aren't clear. +</I>>><i> +</I>><i> I think misc already explained it clearly in this mail : +</I>><i> <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/pipermail/mageia-dev/20101129/001503.html">https://www.mageia.org/pipermail/mageia-dev/20101129/001503.html</A> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> If you disagree, you can reply to his email. But don't keep repeating +</I>><i> that there's not clear drawbacks, that the cost of creating new +</I>><i> repositories is almost nil and this kind of thing if you don't have +</I>><i> any real arguments. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>Well you can insist that the mentioned drawbacks are significant, but if +you follow my arguments, you will see that I explain why I don't believe +they are. +And I'm not the only one with this point of view. +It is useful to take a global point of view, with all the factors involved. +What may seem to be an extra cost for additional repositories is often a +cost, whether or not these additional repositories exist, as long as we +try to meet certain goals. +For example, extra repositories for users is a red herring if we propose +to give user the choice to ignore what would be in these extra +repositories. Admittedly, not if we choose to deny the user this choice. + +As well, some supposed costs make assumptions that we will do things the +same way as Mandriva. But I have presented a different way of doing +things, which wouldn't necessarily entail such costs. +So you like to say that I don't have any real arguments. +Well I'd say that much of misc's arguments in that post don't hold if we +do things in a different way. In other posts, misc's arguments conform +with my point of view. + +By the way, I'm *not* proposing creating *new* repositories. I'm +proposing *not removing* some existing repositories, and doing certain +things in a different way. + +And what are your *real* arguments ? +</PRE> + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001527.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001535.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1528">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1528">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1528">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1528">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001529.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001529.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..0ddc39d14 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001529.html @@ -0,0 +1,123 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C1291080095.8266.341.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001535.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001531.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Michael Scherer</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C1291080095.8266.341.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">misc at zarb.org + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 02:21:35 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001535.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001531.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1529">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1529">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1529">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1529">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Le lundi 29 novembre 2010 à 14:28 +0100, Olivier Thauvin a écrit : +><i> * Thomas Backlund (<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">tmb at iki.fi</A>) wrote: +</I>><i> > Olivier Thauvin skrev 29.11.2010 03:06: +</I>><i> >> * Thomas Backlund (<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">tmb at iki.fi</A>) wrote: +</I>><i> >> I can't agree with the "mirrors are free to not mirror this media", +</I>><i> >> three reasons: +</I>><i> >> 1) I don't see an easy and safe way for mirrors to exclude a media (a +</I>><i> >> directory + hdlist in media/media_info) in each distribution, +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > Thats easy, just use --exclude-from +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > On my local mirror I exclude the debug stuff +</I>><i> > so I use --exclude-from=excclude.lst +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > # cat exclude.lst +</I>><i> > i586/media/*debug* +</I>><i> > i586/media/media_info/*debug* +</I>><i> > x86_64/media/*debug* +</I>><i> > x86_64/media/media_info/*debug* +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > And thats all needed. +</I>><i> > We can even provide this exclude file ourselves on the mirrors so we +</I>><i> > know its correct and if we change the mirror layout, we update the file. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Completly not realist on mirror admin side. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> You really have to remember that first mirror admin job is not maintains +</I>><i> mirrors. They have often hundred of users on their back waiting for +</I>><i> fixes. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> When such will go wrong, nobody will be able to check and fix. +</I> +The issue is that we have 2 types of mirror admins : + +- there is some of them who are hobbyist/enthusiasts, that use their own +server for that, and that mirror only one or 2 distros, and that may not +do it for their job or as part of their job. I think for example +Wolfgang would be in this category. They want to help us, but they may +have slightly limited ressources. But they can have time to tweak the +mirroring to fit what they can offer to us. + +- on the other end of the spectrum, we have people who manage lots of +mirrors, with more bandwidth and bigger servers, more , but maybe not +more time. Ie people that does it as part of their job, with the +associate increase of ressources and work that come with a job. + +So admins that are more of the type 1 are likely ok with following +lists, giving input, tweaking rsync scripts, etc. They are the one that +could help us by giving stats or stuff like that, because they have the +time. But that's also people who may have more trouble ( because of +lesser ressources ) + +Type 2 would prefer to not have too much to do because they may have +better thing to do. Ideally, they set up and do not touch for the 10 +next year and that's ok. + +So we need to take in account this divide. + +We can't have just one type or the other, but in both case, a simpler +mirroring process will benefit to everybody. + + +-- +Michael Scherer + +</PRE> + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001535.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001531.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1529">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1529">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1529">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1529">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001530.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001530.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..9de7eb12f --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001530.html @@ -0,0 +1,121 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF45973.4060908%40laposte.net%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001531.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001533.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>andre999</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF45973.4060908%40laposte.net%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">andr55 at laposte.net + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 02:54:59 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001531.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001533.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1530">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1530">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1530">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1530">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Yann Ciret a écrit : +><i> Le 29/11/2010 15:44, Dexter Morgan a écrit : +</I>><i> +</I>>><i> On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 3:10 PM, Jerome Quelin<<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">jquelin at gmail.com</A>> wrote: +</I>>><i> +</I>>>><i> On 10/11/28 22:12 +0200, Thomas Backlund wrote: +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>>><i> So the mirror medias accordingly to all comments so far would be a simple: +</I>>>>><i> +</I>>>>><i> * core +</I>>>>><i> - enabled by default +</I>>>>><i> - mirrors must mirror this media to be listed as a mirror +</I>>>>><i> - only GPL stuff +</I>>>>><i> - must be selfcontained +</I>>>>><i> +</I>>><i> I liked the main/contrib separation. +</I>>><i> Main was officially supported + sec updates and with only core this +</I>>><i> means a lot more work/support. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> +</I>><i> I dislike the main/contrib separation in some case. +</I>><i> The first example is with Mozilla Thunderbird packages. Some extension +</I>><i> packages are in contrib. So each time thunderbird received security +</I>><i> update, the update cannot be installed because of non automatically +</I>><i> rebuild of his contrib package. And each time I see a bug report of user +</I>><i> asking a manual rebuilt. With only one core media, this situation will +</I>><i> disapear (I hope). +</I>><i> +</I>Unlikely. This problem is not at all related to separate repositories. + +Rather that one package was updated, and an optional installed module +was not. +The fact that the module is optional is the key point. +The installer should be flexible enough to give a warning in this case, +and ask if you wish to continue the installation. +As well, in the case of Thunderbird, it is almost certain that the +installed module was in fact compatible with newer version of +Thunderbird. (A security problem may directly impact Thunderbird or the +module, but highly unlikely both packages.) +Rpm tags should have been set so that Thunderbird would recognize that +the module was appropriate in the newer version. +So in sum, this was probably only a packaging problem. Whatever the +repository. + +Note that if you install generic (not distro specific) Mozilla products, +extensions can be added directly from within the application. I suspect +that this works the same with Mandriva versions, in which case packaging +of Thunderbird should probably be done without any requirements for +optional modules. + +>><i> the other part ( non free + tainted ) seems OK for me +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> +</I>><i> Me too +</I>><i> +</I> +Agreed. +Except I would use the more neutral "restricted" rather than "tainted". +"tainted" sounds like one should never install such a package, whereas +it is intended for packages more at risk to have legal problems in some +countries. + +</PRE> + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001531.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001533.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1530">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1530">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1530">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1530">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001531.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001531.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..d50c2180e --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001531.html @@ -0,0 +1,124 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF45AF1.7080208%40laposte.net%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001529.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001530.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>andre999</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF45AF1.7080208%40laposte.net%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">andr55 at laposte.net + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 03:01:21 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001529.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001530.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1531">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1531">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1531">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1531">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Michael Scherer a écrit : +><i> Le lundi 29 novembre 2010 à 14:28 +0100, Olivier Thauvin a écrit : +</I>><i> +</I>>><i> * Thomas Backlund (<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">tmb at iki.fi</A>) wrote: +</I>>><i> +</I>>>><i> Olivier Thauvin skrev 29.11.2010 03:06: +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>>><i> * Thomas Backlund (<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">tmb at iki.fi</A>) wrote: +</I>>>>><i> I can't agree with the "mirrors are free to not mirror this media", +</I>>>>><i> three reasons: +</I>>>>><i> 1) I don't see an easy and safe way for mirrors to exclude a media (a +</I>>>>><i> directory + hdlist in media/media_info) in each distribution, +</I>>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> Thats easy, just use --exclude-from +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> On my local mirror I exclude the debug stuff +</I>>>><i> so I use --exclude-from=excclude.lst +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> # cat exclude.lst +</I>>>><i> i586/media/*debug* +</I>>>><i> i586/media/media_info/*debug* +</I>>>><i> x86_64/media/*debug* +</I>>>><i> x86_64/media/media_info/*debug* +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> And thats all needed. +</I>>>><i> We can even provide this exclude file ourselves on the mirrors so we +</I>>>><i> know its correct and if we change the mirror layout, we update the file. +</I>>>><i> +</I>>><i> Completly not realist on mirror admin side. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> You really have to remember that first mirror admin job is not maintains +</I>>><i> mirrors. They have often hundred of users on their back waiting for +</I>>><i> fixes. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> When such will go wrong, nobody will be able to check and fix. +</I>>><i> +</I>><i> The issue is that we have 2 types of mirror admins : +</I>><i> +</I>><i> - there is some of them who are hobbyist/enthusiasts, that use their own +</I>><i> server for that, and that mirror only one or 2 distros, and that may not +</I>><i> do it for their job or as part of their job. I think for example +</I>><i> Wolfgang would be in this category. They want to help us, but they may +</I>><i> have slightly limited ressources. But they can have time to tweak the +</I>><i> mirroring to fit what they can offer to us. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> - on the other end of the spectrum, we have people who manage lots of +</I>><i> mirrors, with more bandwidth and bigger servers, more , but maybe not +</I>><i> more time. Ie people that does it as part of their job, with the +</I>><i> associate increase of ressources and work that come with a job. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> So admins that are more of the type 1 are likely ok with following +</I>><i> lists, giving input, tweaking rsync scripts, etc. They are the one that +</I>><i> could help us by giving stats or stuff like that, because they have the +</I>><i> time. But that's also people who may have more trouble ( because of +</I>><i> lesser ressources ) +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Type 2 would prefer to not have too much to do because they may have +</I>><i> better thing to do. Ideally, they set up and do not touch for the 10 +</I>><i> next year and that's ok. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> So we need to take in account this divide. +</I>><i> +</I>Good points. +><i> We can't have just one type or the other, but in both case, a simpler +</I>><i> mirroring process will benefit to everybody. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>- André +</PRE> + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001529.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001530.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1531">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1531">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1531">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1531">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001532.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001532.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..abb225261 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001532.html @@ -0,0 +1,306 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C1291085436.8266.368.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001539.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001548.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Michael Scherer</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C1291085436.8266.368.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">misc at zarb.org + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 03:50:36 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001539.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001548.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1532">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1532">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1532">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1532">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Le lundi 29 novembre 2010 à 18:29 +0100, Samuel Verschelde a écrit : +><i> Le lundi 29 novembre 2010 17:08:25, Michael Scherer a écrit : +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > So either the package is supported, and we keep, or it is not, and then +</I>><i> > why should we keep it ? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Because it works, at least partially. +</I> +Having it work 'partially" is not sufficient. There is lots of things +that would work "partially", but if we want to have people to feel +confident in the distribution, we shouldn't have "partially working +packages", some with "security flaw" and hope that users will understand +the difference. Some of them will not, and shouldn't have to. + +Partially working packages take time from packagers, space on mirrors, +space in hdlist size on everybody. They give bad reputation to our work. + +><i> Because it has users. +</I> +If no one care to even try to update it ( not even a prospective +packager ), then it is likely not much popular. I cannot really think +that a package can have lots of users, and yet none of them being +technical enough to step and become a packager, or to convince someone +from taking it. +That would just be statistically improbable. + +><i> It may have flaws, +</I>><i> it may not have the latest security fixes, it may just be supported but only updated +</I>><i> once a year... That's not a reason for dropping it. +</I> +Being insecure is a reason to drop it. If no one is willing to take time +to simply dig and apply security patchs, and later fix then we should +not let people install it. + +><i> That's why distiction between +</I>><i> officially supported and not officially supported is useful. There are working +</I>><i> packages, seldom updated, which don't deserve to be dropped, but which can't be +</I>><i> advertised as officially supported, and that's understandable. The world is not +</I>><i> either black or white, there are many shades of grey, and that's particularly +</I>><i> true for packages in a linux distribution. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> According to what you said, it looks like there will be only 2 kinds of packages : +</I>><i> - in the distribution (which would be equal to "supported") +</I>><i> - not in the distribution +</I> +You said that you want to have confidence in the distro capacity to +maintain rpms. So there shouldn't be something saying "here is packages +that we cannot support because there isn't enough people to do it". + +If we let people install insecure/buggy packages with just a click, they +will sooner or later. We will just increase the number of those that +complain about unmaintained packages and start to have a reputation of +not having security fixes on everything. + +><i> In Mandriva, you can find many examples of packages in main which are not supported in reality, +</I>><i> or even maybe simply don't work. You can find also many packages in contrib which are +</I>><i> perfectly supported, in cooker as in stable releases. You gave me examples. However I +</I>><i> see very rarely security or bugfix updates for packages in contrib for stable releases +</I>><i> (or sometimes they go to backports), whereas there are many security fixes and bugfixes +</I>><i> for packages in main thanks to Mandriva's security team. There really is a difference +</I>><i> between supported packages and other, although it's far from perfect. +</I> +The difference is mainly that Mandriva has a team of 2 people full time +doing the bugfixes and security updates. We do not have them. + +So that's not because there is contribs that main got more bugfixes and +updates. That's because people are paid to do the work. + +And so there is no correlation between "there is updates in main" and +"there is a split". + +><i> If there's no difference in term of security updates between php and a random maintained +</I>><i> game, then I won't be very confident in the distribution's quality. +</I> +In fact, I fail to see or understand what you mean, even after trying +very hard. + +Seeing that everything is equally supported is a sign of a lack of +quality ? + +In this case, you would likely have problem with gentoo, debian or +fedora security policy :/ + +><i> Let's say I want to install php on the stable Mageia 2011, will it be supported for +</I>><i> security fixes and bugfixes ? For how long ? Are security fixes applied as soon as possible ? +</I>><i> [ snip ] +</I> +If you really want to discuss of support policy, then a new thread +should be started. Or this thread will be more messy. The goal is to +speak about mirror layout, as written in the subject. + +><i> > > and the decision to merge core and extras must be taken together +</I>><i> > > with decisions on QA and support processes, +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > Well, everything should be supported or dropped, that's all. Easy, done +</I>><i> > by every other distros out there except those that place a artificial +</I>><i> > separation. If there is a security bug opened and no one act on it after +</I>><i> > a time, let's drop the package. If there is a severe bug and no one act, +</I>><i> > the same, let's drop it. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > If people want to resurrect a rpm, they can, there is a svn for that. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> This is the most terrible thing I read so far. +</I>><i> I already tried to answer it earlier in this message, +</I>><i> however here's a last example : +</I>><i> - Someone checks if postgresql is supported because if not he'll use another distribution +</I>><i> where it is +</I>><i> - It is (because every package is supported, or it's dropped), but the poor user doesn't +</I>><i> know that Nanar went away doing his own fork, no one stepped in to maintain it ! +</I>><i> +</I>><i> - One year later, postgresql has still security bugs opened, no one takes care => package is dropped +</I> +So you prefer : +package has security problem, we do not drop it, despite no one stepping +to take care, still offer it and users get rooted ? + +><i> Now if there were a list of supported packages, either it would not be officially supported and +</I>><i> the user would know he could use it but maybe won't have security and bugfix updates, +</I>><i> or it is officially supported. Now take the example above : +</I>><i> - Someone checks if postgresql is supported because if not he'll use another distribution where it is +</I>><i> - It is ! +</I>><i> - However the maintainer went away doing his own fork, so he dropped maintainership. +</I>><i> - Someone in QA Team rings a bell : "this supported package isn't supported anymore, +</I>><i> but we promised we would support it for Mageia 2011 for 2 years from now ! We have +</I>><i> to do something !" +</I>><i> - The package team leader, or someone else, relays the warning and finds someone +</I>><i> else to maintain the package, at least for Mageia 2011, for security and bugfix +</I>><i> updates. +</I> +Please, I would appreciate that you do not arrange facts just to support +your point, or I will seriously have to reconsider answering in the +futur. + +In the first case : +package is not supported, no one step to maintain, we drop -> that's +bad. + +second case : +package is not supported, someone step, we don't drop -> that's good + +Why do you make the assumption that someone will step to maintain in 2nd +case and not in the first one ? + +Just saying "it should be supported because it is on some official list" +is not really something that worked that well at Mandriva for the +community. + +See for example the java issue ( no one in the community stepped to +maintain it ), kde 3 ( no one stepped to maintain it despite users +asking for it ). Or the unmaintained packages in main. + +The only reason why there was not more is because they could pay people +to do the work, something we can't and do not plan to do in the +association. + +So I do not see why you think that having a list will magically make +people maintain software while there is easy to find examples of the +contrary. And why would packagers maintain anything ( and therefor do +more work ) if they can simply not care and move it to extra ? + +><i> - (another scenario : there is a maintainer, but the package has pending issues +</I>><i> for a long time, so we have to contact the maintainer about it, and maybe find another maintainer) +</I> +another solution : "we do no promises of supporting anything". + +So far, there is no BS, no packagers team and so no security team, +nothing. Basically, we have no ressources, just promises of ressources. +The experience showed us that there is a vast difference between people +who start to do some work and people who have put their name on the +wiki. We cannot guess anything for the moment. + +Once we have started and done the first release of a alpha version, and +once we have a working team to package, then we can see what we can +support. For the moment, any discussion based on ressources is just +premature and likely not based on real data. + +><i> > We _already_ do not know what is supported or not at Mandriva. People +</I>><i> > push update to contribs ( I do push them for tor or puppet ), while some +</I>><i> > packages in main are not updated or buggy or simply unrebuildable ( see +</I>><i> > all mdk rpm still in the distro for long forgotten reasons ). See this +</I>><i> > old long standing pdftk bug caused by a issue in the java stack in +</I>><i> > main : <A HREF="https://qa.mandriva.com/show_bug.cgi?id=44372">https://qa.mandriva.com/show_bug.cgi?id=44372</A> . In main, and no +</I>><i> > one did anything. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Having packages which ought to be supported and are not in practice doesn't +</I>><i> mean that there must be no difference between officially supported and not +</I>><i> officially supported. +</I> +The same organisation of packages will likely lead to the same problem +( ie, a mess with the problem that I already highlighted ). Most +experienced packagers ( jq, boklm, tmb, among those that expressed, but +also others I have discussed with like nanar, etc ) seems to not want to +repeat again the same mistakes. + +Technically, anybody can follow security lists as they are open, see +securityfocus, or lwn to find what was updated in other distros and os. +Any packager can prepare a security update, there is nothing magic and +there is even documentation on Mandriva wiki. + +Yet almost no one did, and that's mainly because people think "I do not +need to do it, someone will do it for me" and "that's too complex". And +we need to avoid keeping this mentality, because this clearly do not +scale. This work because there is paid people for that. + +If we do say that's ok to not take care of security of a maintained +package by uploading to a unsupported media ( and later move it for +various reasons that we will not be able to avoid ), packagers will +simply tend to not take care of security because that's exactly what we +tel them. And that's exactly what happened at Mandriva. + +So splitting medias based on security support is just that, sending the +wrong sign to packagers. A clear sign that not maintaining package is +ok. But we should send this kind of sign if we really value quality and +if we want to communicate clearly to our users. + +><i> > There is also lots of duplication : +</I>><i> > - apache & nginx, who was moved to main likely because oden like nginx, +</I>><i> > - the various ftp servers, +</I>><i> > - sendmail & postfix, +</I>><i> > - the 4 tls/ssl implementation, +</I>><i> > - the 2 html rendering library ( webkit, gecko ) with more than 1 +</I>><i> > browser. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> What prevents from refining the list if it's too big ? +</I> +Just try, you will see by yourself. +But mainly : +- technical reasons ( different API doing different things ), +- maintainers individual preferences, +- different set of features and no clear vision of what is needed, +- forgotten requirements ( LSB, etc ), +- difficulty of digging the src.rpm requirements graph ( even if smart +or sophie could help on this regard ), + +And in the case of commercial sponsor like Mandriva or Canonical: +- untold requirements ( ie client requirements that cannot be expressed, +or marketing decisions, sometimes overlap with forgotten ones ) + +Nothing impossible. Just nothing that no one done, and that few +attempted. I tried just once. +-- +Michael Scherer + +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001539.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001548.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1532">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1532">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1532">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1532">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001533.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001533.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..649b48388 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001533.html @@ -0,0 +1,107 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C1291086556.8266.384.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001530.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001536.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Michael Scherer</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C1291086556.8266.384.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">misc at zarb.org + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 04:09:16 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001530.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001536.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1533">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1533">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1533">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1533">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Le lundi 29 novembre 2010 à 20:54 -0500, andre999 a écrit : +><i> Yann Ciret a écrit : +</I>><i> +</I>><i> > I dislike the main/contrib separation in some case. +</I>><i> > The first example is with Mozilla Thunderbird packages. Some extension +</I>><i> > packages are in contrib. So each time thunderbird received security +</I>><i> > update, the update cannot be installed because of non automatically +</I>><i> > rebuild of his contrib package. And each time I see a bug report of user +</I>><i> > asking a manual rebuilt. With only one core media, this situation will +</I>><i> > disapear (I hope). +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> Unlikely. This problem is not at all related to separate repositories. +</I> +It is. It is exactly related to the fact that thunderbird is supported, +and that extension are not despites depending on it. + +That precisely because we tell "security and bugfixes occurs only on +main" that contribs got broken, since the security team do not care to +not break contribs packages. + +><i> Rather that one package was updated, and an optional installed module +</I>><i> was not. +</I>><i> The fact that the module is optional is the key point. +</I>><i> The installer should be flexible enough to give a warning in this case, +</I>><i> and ask if you wish to continue the installation. +</I> +So basically, you want a --nodeps ? +If there is a requires, there is usually a good reason. Engineering is +not randomly adding line to a file until it work. + +><i> As well, in the case of Thunderbird, it is almost certain that the +</I>><i> installed module was in fact compatible with newer version of +</I>><i> Thunderbird. (A security problem may directly impact Thunderbird or the +</I>><i> module, but highly unlikely both packages.) +</I>><i> Rpm tags should have been set so that Thunderbird would recognize that +</I>><i> the module was appropriate in the newer version. +</I> +No. If there is stricter dependency, it is precisely because there is no +guarantee of any kind of ABI between thunderbird versions. The same goes +for firefox. + +><i> So in sum, this was probably only a packaging problem. Whatever the +</I>><i> repository. +</I> +No. Not at all. +The problem is linked to the difference of support between main and +contribs. +-- +Michael Scherer + +</PRE> + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001530.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001536.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1533">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1533">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1533">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1533">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001534.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001534.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..1ca434607 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001534.html @@ -0,0 +1,146 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C1291088845.8266.416.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001563.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001540.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Michael Scherer</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C1291088845.8266.416.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">misc at zarb.org + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 04:47:25 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001563.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001540.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1534">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1534">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1534">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1534">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Le lundi 29 novembre 2010 à 15:56 -0500, andre999 a écrit : + +><i> Isn't choice part of +</I>><i> what Linux is supposed to be about ? +</I> +No. + +That's freedom of the source code, not choice. Reread either Gnu +manifesto, or Linus Torvalds biography. + +And so, you are free to use the source code for what you want, period. + +><i> I think that one advantage of using the mirror structure is that it is a +</I>><i> sandbox that makes it clear to everyone (packagers, maintainers, current +</I>><i> and potential users, qa, etc) what is officially supported and what is not. +</I>><i> It has largely worked for Mandriva. +</I> +No. +See the various example I gave. You are not even a packager, how can you +speak for them by telling "it is clear to everyone" when several +packagers have expressed that it is a mess ? + + +><i> What didn't work is +</I>><i> (1) the lack of a well-defined and applied criteria for what is to be +</I>><i> officially supported, and +</I>><i> +</I>><i> (2) the lack of a clear applied policy and strategies of how to deal +</I>><i> with possible dependancies of supported packages on non-supported packages. +</I> +The policy was always clear. Main is self contained. This was enforced +in 2006 with the use of iurt to build rpm. + +Every policy of mixing package from main or contribs would be too +complex from a technical point of view, unsafe from a security point of +view, incomplete from a QA point of view and a blatant lie for people +telling "this software is supported" while it depend on unsupported +components. + +><i> Without this sandbox, packagers are much less likely to do what is +</I>><i> necessary to ensure that supported packages are fully supported, +</I>><i> including dependancies. Including getting the necessary support from +</I>><i> others to achieve this. +</I>><i> Support is much more than an official maintainer. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> The supposed advantages of discarding a set of repositories over having +</I>><i> an obvious sandbox aren't clear. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Another mechanism allowing the end-user to select only supported +</I>><i> packages will be at least as complex. +</I>><i> There will be no difference for mirrors. (Same size, just a few extra +</I>><i> directories.) +</I>><i> Packagers can't help but notice if accessing dependancies outside the +</I>><i> sandbox. +</I> +Are you sure you have a idea on how packages are built at Mandriva or on +various distributions ? +Because right now, what you say doesn't make sense to me, and I can +guarantee that I know how it work. + +><i> > [ stormi's example ] +</I>><i> Excellent example. +</I>><i> This also points to the advantage of a mirror-based categorization. +</I>><i> Support should only change by release, not stop somewhere in between. +</I> +This is distribution made by volunteers. If no one want to do the job, +then the job will not be done. So if no one want to maintain something, +what should be done ? + +And if someone want to do the job, the only thing he has to do is to +become maintainer. + +So no, the example is not "excellent". It is based on a single important +change : "someone will step to maintain it", while in my example, I +precisely pre-supposed the contrary. + +So the comparaison is totally invalid and misleading. + + +-- +Michael Scherer + +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001563.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001540.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1534">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1534">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1534">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1534">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001535.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001535.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..8cf21456e --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001535.html @@ -0,0 +1,128 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C1291089949.8266.432.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001528.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001529.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Michael Scherer</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C1291089949.8266.432.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">misc at zarb.org + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 05:05:49 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001528.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001529.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1535">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1535">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1535">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1535">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Le lundi 29 novembre 2010 à 20:06 -0500, andre999 a écrit : +><i> nicolas vigier a écrit : +</I>><i> > On Mon, 29 Nov 2010, andre999 wrote: +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> >> The supposed advantages of discarding a set of repositories over having an +</I>><i> >> obvious sandbox aren't clear. +</I>><i> >> +</I>><i> > I think misc already explained it clearly in this mail : +</I>><i> > <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/pipermail/mageia-dev/20101129/001503.html">https://www.mageia.org/pipermail/mageia-dev/20101129/001503.html</A> +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > If you disagree, you can reply to his email. But don't keep repeating +</I>><i> > that there's not clear drawbacks, that the cost of creating new +</I>><i> > repositories is almost nil and this kind of thing if you don't have +</I>><i> > any real arguments. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> Well you can insist that the mentioned drawbacks are significant, but if +</I>><i> you follow my arguments, you will see that I explain why I don't believe +</I>><i> they are. +</I> +I would be more inclined to trust boklm's technical judgement, who is in +charge of setting up the Mageia BS, who proposed several improvement on +it ( uid splitting, etc ), who worked since several years as a packager, +build system and cluster admin at Mandriva. + +><i> And I'm not the only one with this point of view. +</I> +Not being alone doesn't mean that's a good idea. For example +all lemmings that think that mass suicide are not alone. + +><i> It is useful to take a global point of view, with all the factors involved. +</I> +Well, yes, and we think we did it. You know, we worked on a distribution +since some time. So we have a global point of view. + +><i> As well, some supposed costs make assumptions that we will do things the +</I>><i> same way as Mandriva. But I have presented a different way of doing +</I>><i> things, which wouldn't necessarily entail such costs. +</I> +You have presented exactly the same system as Mandriva. That's not what +I call "different". + + +><i> So you like to say that I don't have any real arguments. +</I>><i> Well I'd say that much of misc's arguments in that post don't hold if we +</I>><i> do things in a different way. +</I>><i> [..] +</I>><i> In other posts, misc's arguments conform +</I>><i> with my point of view. +</I> +What you achieved is the demonstration about the emptiness of saying +"misc's argument" without refering to the arguments you are speaking of. + +Next time, can you be more precise and say "$FOO do not hold because +of .., while $BAR is in favor of my idea" with $FOO and $BAR being the +actual arguments so we can at least understand ? + +I would also request you to refrain from using my nickname for doing +such name dropping in the future. + +><i> By the way, I'm *not* proposing creating *new* repositories. I'm +</I>><i> proposing *not removing* some existing repositories, and doing certain +</I>><i> things in a different way. +</I> +We propose to remove existing repositories precisely because we know +what problem this create to keep the existing system. And we know +because we faced them. This is based on our experiences as long time +packagers and distribution admins. + +-- +Michael Scherer + +</PRE> + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001528.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001529.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1535">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1535">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1535">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1535">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001536.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001536.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..809c8435b --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001536.html @@ -0,0 +1,171 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF48BAD.1080302%40laposte.net%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001533.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001537.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>andre999</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF48BAD.1080302%40laposte.net%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">andr55 at laposte.net + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 06:29:17 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001533.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001537.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1536">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1536">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1536">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1536">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Michael Scherer a écrit : +><i> Le lundi 29 novembre 2010 à 20:54 -0500, andre999 a écrit : +</I>><i> +</I>>><i> Yann Ciret a écrit : +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> +</I>>>><i> I dislike the main/contrib separation in some case. +</I>>>><i> The first example is with Mozilla Thunderbird packages. Some extension +</I>>>><i> packages are in contrib. So each time thunderbird received security +</I>>>><i> update, the update cannot be installed because of non automatically +</I>>>><i> rebuild of his contrib package. And each time I see a bug report of user +</I>>>><i> asking a manual rebuilt. With only one core media, this situation will +</I>>>><i> disapear (I hope). +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> +</I>>><i> Unlikely. This problem is not at all related to separate repositories. +</I>>><i> +</I>><i> It is. It is exactly related to the fact that thunderbird is supported, +</I>><i> and that extension are not despites depending on it. +</I>><i> +</I>In this case it is evident that you don't understand how extensions work +with mozilla products. Thunderbird will function correctly with no +extensions installed. So why should any extension block the update of +Thunderbird ? +Additionally, modules installed will continue to work as long as the +major version doesn't change. (Actually slightly more complicated.) +In some cases one won't be able to newly install a module because a +config file inside the module - equivalent to the spec file in rpm +packages - hasn't been updated for compatible versions. (In fact, the +versions were probably improperly specified.) But installed modules +will continue to function. +It is possible that the packager did not realise this - or for whatever +reason did not properly set up a spec file - but this issue has nothing +at all to do with separate sets of repositories. + +><i> That precisely because we tell "security and bugfixes occurs only on +</I>><i> main" that contribs got broken, since the security team do not care to +</I>><i> not break contribs packages. +</I>><i> +</I>The crux of this problem is that core (in the general sense) packages +are dependant on packages that are not recognized as core. +That again has nothing to do with repositories as such. + +>><i> Rather that one package was updated, and an optional installed module +</I>>><i> was not. +</I>>><i> The fact that the module is optional is the key point. +</I>>><i> The installer should be flexible enough to give a warning in this case, +</I>>><i> and ask if you wish to continue the installation. +</I>>><i> +</I>><i> So basically, you want a --nodeps ? +</I>><i> If there is a requires, there is usually a good reason. Engineering is +</I>><i> not randomly adding line to a file until it work. +</I>><i> +</I>How about better configured spec files ? +A better definition (in general) of core packages ? +A focus on ensuring that core packages are maintained ? +Basically my idea behind a core sandbox. +But if you have a better idea ... + +Just remember, eliminating a supported core breaks the sandbox. +So removing repositories does have secondary effects. +And they should be seriously considered and discussed by those proposing +to remove the repositories. + +>><i> As well, in the case of Thunderbird, it is almost certain that the +</I>>><i> installed module was in fact compatible with newer version of +</I>>><i> Thunderbird. (A security problem may directly impact Thunderbird or the +</I>>><i> module, but highly unlikely both packages.) +</I>>><i> Rpm tags should have been set so that Thunderbird would recognize that +</I>>><i> the module was appropriate in the newer version. +</I>>><i> +</I>><i> No. If there is stricter dependency, it is precisely because there is no +</I>><i> guarantee of any kind of ABI between thunderbird versions. The same goes +</I>><i> for firefox. +</I>><i> +</I>Overly restrictive compatibility specification is a very a common error +in Mozilla extension packaging. (It's mentioned in their development +guides.) +But the rpm packager should be knowledgable enough to recognize it. +But such errors do happen. +>><i> So in sum, this was probably only a packaging problem. Whatever the +</I>>><i> repository. +</I>>><i> +</I>><i> No. Not at all. +</I>><i> The problem is linked to the difference of support between main and +</I>><i> contribs. +</I>><i> +</I> +In this case, it is inappropriate packaging. +Other cases could be a difference of support. + +There is no reason that extensions should ever block the upgrade of +Thunderbird, unless when one passes from one major version to another. +In that case, the extension will have to be rewritten, a development +function. +(That has only happened a few times since the beginning of Mozilla.) + +The essence of our disagreement seems to be how to ensure that core +packages are properly supported. +My point is that a sandbox will facilitate proper support. Which would +be facilitated by keeping the 2 sets of free repositories. And +restricting what should be considered core. +We both know that Mandriva is moving in that direction. Evidently +recognising that they weren't restrictive enough in the past. + +Your focus is removing 1 of these repository sets, and thus the sandbox. +But I don't see your solution for giving priority to maintaining core +packages ? +These factors are undeniably linked. + +By the way, I'm very willing to be convinced. Just give me the logic. + +regards + +- André +</PRE> + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001533.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001537.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1536">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1536">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1536">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1536">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001537.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001537.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..32008d580 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001537.html @@ -0,0 +1,98 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C20101130075022.GB8311%40mongueurs.net%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001536.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001538.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Jerome Quelin</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C20101130075022.GB8311%40mongueurs.net%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">jquelin at gmail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 08:50:22 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001536.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001538.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1537">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1537">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1537">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1537">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>On 10/11/30 00:29 -0500, andre999 wrote: +><i> My point is that a sandbox will facilitate proper support. Which +</I>><i> would be facilitated by keeping the 2 sets of free repositories. +</I>><i> And restricting what should be considered core. +</I>><i> We both know that Mandriva is moving in that direction. Evidently +</I>><i> recognising that they weren't restrictive enough in the past. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Your focus is removing 1 of these repository sets, and thus the sandbox. +</I>><i> But I don't see your solution for giving priority to maintaining +</I>><i> core packages ? +</I>><i> These factors are undeniably linked. +</I> +no they're not. the problem is the lack of maintainers. + +your answer: "it is in core media, so people will acknowledge it's +important and will step in". + +guess what? they won't. history suggests that. the following too: +<A HREF="https://maint.mandriva.com/listpkgs.php?owner=1&media=1&scount=1000">https://maint.mandriva.com/listpkgs.php?owner=1&media=1&scount=1000</A> + +you will answer that those packages should not be in main, but in extra +since they aren't really "core" (your definition of "core"). but most of +them are in main because of buildrequires dependencies. so what to do? + +and by having 2 medias, you are increasing the work of potential +packagers. and their frustration. trust me on this - been there, done +that. + +now michael's answer: "broken? no one steps in? removed from mageia." +does it suck? yes. as a user, i prefer having lots of packages +available, since it means that i won't have to package it myself if/when +i need the tool. + +but it has a great virtue: it passes reality check. less packages means +less work for the small pool of maintainer. and it may force people to +step in ('cause there's an impacting action that will happen otherwise) +rather than handwaving. which increases the pool of maintainer. + +so i'm in favour of misc's proposal. +jérôme +-- +<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">jquelin at gmail.com</A> +</PRE> + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001536.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001538.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1537">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1537">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1537">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1537">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001538.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001538.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..7a8abf82c --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001538.html @@ -0,0 +1,98 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTin19kZ2wVJ59zjC%2Bge6%3D272Yx7Z5gO5cBPYsvY%3D%40mail.gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001537.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001539.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Wolfgang Bornath</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTin19kZ2wVJ59zjC%2Bge6%3D272Yx7Z5gO5cBPYsvY%3D%40mail.gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">molch.b at googlemail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 09:15:54 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001537.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001539.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1538">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1538">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1538">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1538">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>I think this whole question is not done with an easy answer. It can +also not be ssen in a black/white mode. I see the clear insight of +Michael's suggestion which is a black/white point of view. Not +maintained? Kick it out (well, not "out" but into the ante-room). But +I also see the reality from the user's POV. As for technical skilled +or experienced users (including server admins) the main question is +that those packages which are available should work and be maintained. +Period. +But there is also the vast group of the "unwashed masses" including +those we want to attract to Mageia. Many of those do look at the sheer +number of packages (like, "I'd rather switch to Foo Linux which offers +2 million packages while Mageia only offers 5,000"). Yes, I know, it's +rather dumb and those users are the first to complain about some +missing icon. But they are a large part of the users out there. + +So we have to find a middle way between the pure and the ugly. How to +find that, I don't know, this is far beyond my knowledge. I only +wanted to comment on the "philosophical" side of the problem. For me +as a mostly non-technical guy the best solution would be the "flag" +solution. Forget the main/contrib split and just flag unmaintained +rpms so that the user sees it in the GUI. How to accomplish that on +the CLI with urpmi I don't know. Then people who are security- aware +like server admins can easily avoid unmaintained packages or open a +request in Bugzilla which **may** inspire somebody to pick up the poor +unmaintained package. + +One comment on the mirror maintainer part of the story: +I was mentioned by Michael several times as an example of a certain +kind of mirror maintainers. Yes, ressources are tight but not that +tight. As I understood the "official mirror" as suggested by Olivier +was about to fill up to 700 GB during the next 3 years - given that we +will have 2 releases per year. Most of the official mirrors of +Mandriva do not provide 6 releases, moreso when the life cycle of a +release is less than 2 years. +So, a realistic size woul be more like 450-500 GB at the most which is +easily done with today's hardware. This is not a problem. Time is not +a problem either for such people like me. The only problem I still see +from the mirror maintainer's side is the way to deal with "tainted" +packages wrt the mirrorlist (as already mentioned). + +-- +wobo +</PRE> + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001537.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001539.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1538">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1538">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1538">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1538">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001539.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001539.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..d44993eb3 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001539.html @@ -0,0 +1,244 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTikRx03UuHgXDXv4myba8d6yMMRT%2BpHUcdbWtkeY%40mail.gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001538.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001532.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Ahmad Samir</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTikRx03UuHgXDXv4myba8d6yMMRT%2BpHUcdbWtkeY%40mail.gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">ahmadsamir3891 at gmail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 10:46:00 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001538.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001532.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1539">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1539">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1539">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1539">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>On 30 November 2010 07:29, andre999 <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">andr55 at laposte.net</A>> wrote: +><i> Michael Scherer a écrit : +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Le lundi 29 novembre 2010 à 20:54 -0500, andre999 a écrit : +</I>>><i> +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> Yann Ciret a écrit : +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>>><i> +</I>>>>><i> I dislike the main/contrib separation in some case. +</I>>>>><i> The first example is with Mozilla Thunderbird packages. Some extension +</I>>>>><i> packages are in contrib. So each time thunderbird received security +</I>>>>><i> update, the update cannot be installed because of non automatically +</I>>>>><i> rebuild of his contrib package. And each time I see a bug report of user +</I>>>>><i> asking a manual rebuilt. With only one core media, this situation will +</I>>>>><i> disapear (I hope). +</I>>>>><i> +</I>>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> Unlikely.  This problem is not at all related to separate repositories. +</I>>>><i> +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> It is. It is exactly related to the fact that thunderbird is supported, +</I>>><i> and that extension are not despites depending on it. +</I>>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> In this case it is evident that you don't understand how extensions work +</I>><i> with mozilla products. +</I>><i> Thunderbird will function correctly with no +</I>><i> extensions installed.  So why should any extension block the update of +</I>><i> Thunderbird ? +</I> +So the user can simply uninstall that extension and update to new +thunderbird? the user can do this only if he doesn't need that +extension, only if it doesn't offer features he wants to use. That's +an invalid argument, if he doesn't need that extension why does he +have it on his system?? + +The rationale is/was that mozilla code breaks/broke ABI, so it was +agreed that extensions are rebuilt for both firefox and thunderbird +respective new versions. + +We will look into that with upstream, so that if a rebuild isn't +needed, then all the better for us (packagers). But until that +happens, they will be rebuilt. A 1-2 day delay isn't too much for +users. + +The more pressing issue is, what does this have to do with the topic +at hand "Mirrors layout, round two" ?? this discussion is deviating +too much, to the extent it's becoming bloated... + +><i> Additionally, modules installed will continue to work as long as the major +</I>><i> version doesn't change.  (Actually slightly more complicated.) +</I>><i> In some cases one won't be able to newly install a module because a config +</I>><i> file inside the module - equivalent to the spec file in rpm packages - +</I>><i> hasn't been updated for compatible versions.  (In fact, the versions were +</I>><i> probably improperly specified.)  But installed modules will continue to +</I>><i> function. +</I>><i> It is possible that the packager did not realise this - or for whatever +</I>><i> reason did not properly set up a spec file - but this issue has nothing at +</I>><i> all to do with separate sets of repositories. +</I> +Speaking abstractly without examples in this case is just that, +"speaking". Give us an example of such a case (if any) in a spec file +so that it can be fixed. + +><i> +</I>>><i> That precisely because we tell "security and bugfixes occurs only on +</I>>><i> main" that contribs got broken, since the security team do not care to +</I>>><i> not break contribs packages. +</I>>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> The crux of this problem is that core (in the general sense) packages are +</I>><i> dependant on packages that are not recognized as core. +</I>><i> That again has nothing to do with repositories as such. +</I> +I agree with Michael here, doing sec fixes isn't hard (once one gets +used to it), just time consuming, and it should be done for all +packages in the "official" repos; it's true that GPL gives no +guarantees what so ever, just it's a moral obligation for people +involved in the FOSS world to support users as best they can. + +Users do not differentiate between main/contrib, there's a package +they install it, I don't think they look from which repo it comes +from. + +><i> +</I>>>><i> Rather that one package was updated, and an optional installed module +</I>>>><i> was not. +</I>>>><i> The fact that the module is optional is the key point. +</I>>>><i> The installer should be flexible enough to give a warning in this case, +</I>>>><i> and ask if you wish to continue the installation. +</I>>>><i> +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> So basically, you want a --nodeps ? +</I>>><i> If there is a requires, there is usually a good reason. Engineering is +</I>>><i> not randomly adding line to a file until it work. +</I>>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> How about better configured spec files ? +</I>><i> A better definition (in general) of core packages ? +</I>><i> A focus on ensuring that core packages are maintained ? +</I>><i> Basically my idea behind a core sandbox. +</I>><i> But if you have a better idea ... +</I>><i> +</I> +Again, give us an example of a spec file that needs "better" +configuration, otherwise you're theorising. + +><i> Just remember, eliminating a supported core breaks the sandbox. +</I>><i> So removing repositories does have secondary effects. +</I>><i> And they should be seriously considered and discussed by those proposing to +</I>><i> remove the repositories. +</I>><i> +</I>>>><i> As well, in the case of Thunderbird, it is almost certain that the +</I>>>><i> installed module was in fact compatible with newer version of +</I>>>><i> Thunderbird.  (A security problem may directly impact Thunderbird or the +</I>>>><i> module, but highly unlikely both packages.) +</I>>>><i> Rpm tags should have been set so that Thunderbird would recognize that +</I>>>><i> the module was appropriate in the newer version. +</I>>>><i> +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> No. If there is stricter dependency, it is precisely because there is no +</I>>><i> guarantee of any kind of ABI between thunderbird versions. The same goes +</I>>><i> for firefox. +</I>>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Overly restrictive compatibility specification is a very a common error in +</I>><i> Mozilla extension packaging.  (It's mentioned in their development guides.) +</I>><i> But the rpm packager should be knowledgable enough to recognize it. +</I>><i> But such errors do happen. +</I> +Read above. + +>>><i> +</I>>>><i> So in sum, this was probably only a packaging problem.  Whatever the +</I>>>><i> repository. +</I>>>><i> +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> No. Not at all. +</I>>><i> The problem is linked to the difference of support between main and +</I>>><i> contribs. +</I>>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> In this case, it is inappropriate packaging. +</I>><i> Other cases could be a difference of support. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> There is no reason that extensions should ever block the upgrade of +</I>><i> Thunderbird, unless when one passes from one major version to another. +</I>><i> In that case, the extension will have to be rewritten, a development +</I>><i> function. +</I>><i> (That has only happened a few times since the beginning of Mozilla.) +</I> +See above (again). + +><i> +</I>><i> The essence of our disagreement seems to be how to ensure that core packages +</I>><i> are properly supported. +</I> +Define "core". For KDE users who want to change GTK themes gtk-chtheme +(a very small and really old package) is core (i.e. important). The +point is, a package is offered in the repos it should be as supported +as possible, main/contrib/non-free doesn't/shouldn't matter. + +><i> My point is that a sandbox will facilitate proper support.  Which would be +</I>><i> facilitated by keeping the 2 sets of free repositories.  And restricting +</I>><i> what should be considered core. +</I>><i> We both know that Mandriva is moving in that direction.  Evidently +</I>><i> recognising that they weren't restrictive enough in the past. +</I>><i> +</I> +Contrib _is_not_ a sandbox, unless you're implying packagers are using +users as lab rats.... which isn't true. + +><i> Your focus is removing 1 of these repository sets, and thus the sandbox. +</I>><i> But I don't see your solution for giving priority to maintaining core +</I>><i> packages ? +</I>><i> These factors are undeniably linked. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> By the way, I'm very willing to be convinced.  Just give me the logic. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> regards +</I>><i> +</I>><i> - André +</I>><i> +</I> +-- +Ahmad Samir +</PRE> + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001538.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001532.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1539">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1539">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1539">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1539">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001540.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001540.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..a4aa63e44 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001540.html @@ -0,0 +1,172 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF4D3F6.1080307%40iki.fi%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001534.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001541.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Thomas Backlund</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF4D3F6.1080307%40iki.fi%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">tmb at iki.fi + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 11:37:42 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001534.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001541.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1540">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1540">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1540">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1540">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>So, after reading all different opinions here and discussing with +founders, here is the idea: + +We start of with 3 medias: core, nonfree, tainted and 3 debug medias: +debug_core, debug_nonfree, debug_tainted. In order to avoid confusion, +we wont use the name "restricted" as it was used in MDV commercial products. + +Now all of theese medias will have their 5 submedias: release, updates, +updates_testing, backports, backports_testing. + +That brings us to 30 medias in total :) + +The details of the media layout suggestion is also at the end of this +mail, and at: <A HREF="http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=mirrors_policy">http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=mirrors_policy</A> + + +Now... + +We wont blindly import every package from cooker, instead we'll +start off the import with basesystem (as in bootable system with +shell access), compiler and rpm tools (and of course their buildtime +depencies). When all of that is imported and rebuilt, we have a working +buildsystem / base to build from. + +Then we to go on with and start importing X, the different +DE's and every other package needed to build a full distro. + +By doing it this way, we get a clean start, every package rebuilt, +and no old/unmaintained stuff in the beginning. + +Then as more maintainers join, I guess more packages will be imported +from cooker and other sources. And packages can always be requested. + +As for those that want the core/extra split: +We already tried it with main/contrib split. And I know mdv is now +trying to refine what belongs in main or not, but thats for mdv +to work through the "problem" as it wont be an easy task. + +For us I think the best way for now is to start with this suggested +layout, and see if it works well for us. Remember, as Michael pointed +out, this is a community supported distro, and only time will tell how +well the community actually will support their distro. + +Point is, if we later decide this is not working well, we can always +review the decisions and if decided do the split. + +Can we reach an agreement that this is the way to start the distro? + + + +and for refernece: The suggested layout for is: + +* core + - enabled by default + - mirrors must mirror this media to be listed as a mirror + - only free/libre stuff as described by FSF / OSI + - must be selfcontained + +* nonfree + - disabled by default, installer will ask to enable it if + it detects hw that need driver/fw from here + - mirrors must mirror this media to be listed as a mirror + - contains apps/drivers/firmware that are free to redistribute + but we dont have redistributable source for + - for example: ati/nvidia drivers/firmware, Oracle Java, + Adobe stuff we might get redistribution permission for + +* tainted + - disabled by default + - mirrors are free to not mirror this media ( ? ) + - stuff we think we can redistribute, but that may have some + patent issues or other legal restrictions + - what belongs / is allowed here must still be discussed + +* debug_core + - disabled by default + - debug rpms for core + +* debug_nonfree + - disabled by default + - debug rpms for nonfree + +* debug_tainted + - disabled by default + - debug rpms for tainted + + + +Every media contains the same layout: + +* backports + - disabled by default + +* backports_testing + - disabled by default + +* release + - disabled by default on nonfree, installer will ask to enable + it if it detects hw that need driver/fw from here + - disabled by default on tainted, debug_core, debug_nonfree, + debug_tainted + +* updates + - disabled by default on nonfree, installer will ask to enable + it if it detects hw that need driver/fw from here + - disabled by default on tainted, debug_core, debug_nonfree, + debug_tainted + +* updates_testing + - disabled by default + +-- +Thomas +</PRE> + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001534.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001541.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1540">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1540">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1540">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1540">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001541.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001541.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..856c8d50b --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001541.html @@ -0,0 +1,90 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C20101130104849.GC8311%40mongueurs.net%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001540.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001550.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Jerome Quelin</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C20101130104849.GC8311%40mongueurs.net%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">jquelin at gmail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 11:48:49 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001540.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001550.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1541">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1541">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1541">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1541">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>On 10/11/30 12:37 +0200, Thomas Backlund wrote: +><i> We wont blindly import every package from cooker, instead we'll +</I>><i> start off the import with basesystem (as in bootable system with +</I>><i> shell access), compiler and rpm tools (and of course their buildtime +</I>><i> depencies). When all of that is imported and rebuilt, we have a +</I>><i> working buildsystem / base to build from. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Then we to go on with and start importing X, the different +</I>><i> DE's and every other package needed to build a full distro. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> By doing it this way, we get a clean start, every package rebuilt, +</I>><i> and no old/unmaintained stuff in the beginning. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Then as more maintainers join, I guess more packages will be imported +</I>><i> from cooker and other sources. And packages can always be requested. +</I> +sounds sensible to me. + +questions: +- how will the import be done? +- is it up for the maintainer to request it? or only for non-base system + packages? +- or does the maintainer has a magic command to do? +- will submitting a package for rebuild bork the list of maintainer (mdv + uses the "maintainer = 1st to submit" scheme) +- do we have an estimated planning with the different steps? + +jérôme +-- +<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">jquelin at gmail.com</A> +</PRE> + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001540.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001550.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1541">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1541">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1541">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1541">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001542.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001542.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..408fd0c0a --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001542.html @@ -0,0 +1,97 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C201011300750.11129%40hatmheyt.lan.littleboboy.net%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001550.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001547.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Balcaen John</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C201011300750.11129%40hatmheyt.lan.littleboboy.net%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">balcaen.john at gmail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 11:50:10 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001550.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001547.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1542">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1542">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1542">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1542">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Le mardi 30 novembre 2010 07:37:42, Thomas Backlund a écrit : +><i> So, after reading all different opinions here and discussing with +</I>><i> founders, here is the idea: +</I>><i> +</I>><i> We start of with 3 medias: core, nonfree, tainted and 3 debug medias: +</I>><i> debug_core, debug_nonfree, debug_tainted. In order to avoid confusion, +</I>><i> we wont use the name "restricted" as it was used in MDV commercial +</I>><i> products. +</I>><i> +</I>[...] +><i> +</I>><i> We wont blindly import every package from cooker, instead we'll +</I>><i> start off the import with basesystem (as in bootable system with +</I>><i> shell access), compiler and rpm tools (and of course their buildtime +</I>><i> depencies). When all of that is imported and rebuilt, we have a working +</I>><i> buildsystem / base to build from. +</I>Are you (not specifically you thomas :p) going to check again the basesystem +dependencies/requirements, if i remember correctly the basesystem in mandriva is +not anymore a « real » basesystem ? + +><i> Then we to go on with and start importing X, the different +</I>><i> DE's and every other package needed to build a full distro. +</I>Should not each package imported directly by the maintener here (for the DE), +so he's going to import (hopefully ?) only the real requirements so we'll be +able to drop « more » unused packages maybe? + +[...] +><i> Can we reach an agreement that this is the way to start the distro? +</I>Sure (even if i'm not followed for the 2 points before :p ) + +Regards, + +-- +Balcaen John +IRC: mikala on freenode.org +XMPP: <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">mikala at jabber.littleboboy.net</A> +</PRE> + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001550.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001547.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1542">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1542">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1542">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1542">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001543.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001543.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..5f22cffea --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001543.html @@ -0,0 +1,72 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTinTUTW%3DxTjEixyiWFsH4QYjVx4jKOi2E3pXmuqw%40mail.gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001551.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001544.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Romain d'Alverny</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTinTUTW%3DxTjEixyiWFsH4QYjVx4jKOi2E3pXmuqw%40mail.gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">rdalverny at gmail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 12:02:14 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001551.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001544.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1543">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1543">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1543">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1543">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 11:37, Thomas Backlund <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">tmb at iki.fi</A>> wrote: +><i> So, after reading all different opinions here and discussing with founders, +</I>><i> here is the idea: +</I>><i> [...] +</I>><i> Can we reach an agreement that this is the way to start the distro? +</I> +Looks good, yes. + +Romain +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001551.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001544.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1543">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1543">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1543">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1543">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001544.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001544.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..3e9a27532 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001544.html @@ -0,0 +1,85 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C20101130110425.GM21938%40mars-attacks.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001543.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001545.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>nicolas vigier</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C20101130110425.GM21938%40mars-attacks.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">boklm at mars-attacks.org + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 12:04:25 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001543.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001545.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1544">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1544">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1544">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1544">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>On Tue, 30 Nov 2010, Thomas Backlund wrote: + +><i> So, after reading all different opinions here and discussing with founders, +</I>><i> here is the idea: +</I>><i> +</I>><i> We start of with 3 medias: core, nonfree, tainted and 3 debug medias: +</I>><i> debug_core, debug_nonfree, debug_tainted. In order to avoid confusion, +</I>><i> we wont use the name "restricted" as it was used in MDV commercial products. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Now all of theese medias will have their 5 submedias: release, updates, +</I>><i> updates_testing, backports, backports_testing. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> That brings us to 30 medias in total :) +</I>><i> +</I>><i> The details of the media layout suggestion is also at the end of this +</I>><i> mail, and at: <A HREF="http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=mirrors_policy">http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=mirrors_policy</A> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> [...] +</I>><i> Can we reach an agreement that this is the way to start the distro? +</I> +I agree with this proposal. + +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001543.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001545.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1544">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1544">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1544">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1544">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001545.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001545.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..a240c9480 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001545.html @@ -0,0 +1,124 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C201011301204.49383.stormi%40laposte.net%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001544.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001552.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Samuel Verschelde</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C201011301204.49383.stormi%40laposte.net%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">stormi at laposte.net + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 12:04:49 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001544.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001552.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1545">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1545">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1545">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1545">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE> +Le mardi 30 novembre 2010 11:37:42, Thomas Backlund a écrit : +><i> +</I>><i> So, after reading all different opinions here and discussing with +</I>><i> founders, here is the idea: +</I>><i> +</I>><i> We start of with 3 medias: core, nonfree, tainted and 3 debug medias: +</I>><i> debug_core, debug_nonfree, debug_tainted. In order to avoid confusion, +</I>><i> we wont use the name "restricted" as it was used in MDV commercial products. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Now all of theese medias will have their 5 submedias: release, updates, +</I>><i> updates_testing, backports, backports_testing. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> That brings us to 30 medias in total :) +</I>><i> +</I>><i> The details of the media layout suggestion is also at the end of this +</I>><i> mail, and at: <A HREF="http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=mirrors_policy">http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=mirrors_policy</A> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Now... +</I>><i> +</I>><i> We wont blindly import every package from cooker, instead we'll +</I>><i> start off the import with basesystem (as in bootable system with +</I>><i> shell access), compiler and rpm tools (and of course their buildtime +</I>><i> depencies). When all of that is imported and rebuilt, we have a working +</I>><i> buildsystem / base to build from. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Then we to go on with and start importing X, the different +</I>><i> DE's and every other package needed to build a full distro. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> By doing it this way, we get a clean start, every package rebuilt, +</I>><i> and no old/unmaintained stuff in the beginning. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Then as more maintainers join, I guess more packages will be imported +</I>><i> from cooker and other sources. And packages can always be requested. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> As for those that want the core/extra split: +</I>><i> We already tried it with main/contrib split. And I know mdv is now +</I>><i> trying to refine what belongs in main or not, but thats for mdv +</I>><i> to work through the "problem" as it wont be an easy task. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> For us I think the best way for now is to start with this suggested +</I>><i> layout, and see if it works well for us. Remember, as Michael pointed +</I>><i> out, this is a community supported distro, and only time will tell how +</I>><i> well the community actually will support their distro. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Point is, if we later decide this is not working well, we can always +</I>><i> review the decisions and if decided do the split. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Can we reach an agreement that this is the way to start the distro? +</I>><i> +</I> +OK for me provided support policy matters are not discarded forever but only delayed to allow things to start. + +It would be great to start QA Team's organization as soon as possible. I don't think we need to wait for the BS and the packages to begin thinking about those matters. + +Regards + +Samuel + +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001544.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001552.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1545">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1545">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1545">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1545">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001546.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001546.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..da2aa9bd2 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001546.html @@ -0,0 +1,89 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTimq1o%2BtaE4UJkYZXS%3D8QV7nxhCYm54XfXeLSthz%40mail.gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001552.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001553.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Anne nicolas</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTimq1o%2BtaE4UJkYZXS%3D8QV7nxhCYm54XfXeLSthz%40mail.gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">ennael1 at gmail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 12:15:26 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001552.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001553.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1546">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1546">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1546">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1546">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>2010/11/30 Thomas Backlund <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">tmb at iki.fi</A>>: +><i> So, after reading all different opinions here and discussing with founders, +</I>><i> here is the idea: +</I> +><i> For us I think the best way for now is to start with this suggested +</I>><i> layout, and see if it works well for us. Remember, as Michael pointed +</I>><i> out, this is a community supported distro, and only time will tell how +</I>><i> well the community actually will support their distro. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Point is, if we later decide this is not working well, we can always +</I>><i> review the decisions and if decided do the split. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Can we reach an agreement that this is the way to start the distro? +</I> + +Looks ok for me and the easiest layout we may achieve. Still we will +need to finalize policies about repositories content. + + + + +-- +Anne +<A HREF="http://www.mageia.org">http://www.mageia.org</A> +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001552.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001553.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1546">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1546">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1546">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1546">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001547.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001547.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..4352cc8b8 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001547.html @@ -0,0 +1,107 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C1291119782.8266.445.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001542.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001554.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Michael Scherer</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C1291119782.8266.445.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">misc at zarb.org + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 13:23:02 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001542.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001554.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1547">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1547">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1547">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1547">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Le mardi 30 novembre 2010 à 07:50 -0300, Balcaen John a écrit : +><i> Le mardi 30 novembre 2010 07:37:42, Thomas Backlund a écrit : +</I>><i> > So, after reading all different opinions here and discussing with +</I>><i> > founders, here is the idea: +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > We start of with 3 medias: core, nonfree, tainted and 3 debug medias: +</I>><i> > debug_core, debug_nonfree, debug_tainted. In order to avoid confusion, +</I>><i> > we wont use the name "restricted" as it was used in MDV commercial +</I>><i> > products. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> [...] +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > We wont blindly import every package from cooker, instead we'll +</I>><i> > start off the import with basesystem (as in bootable system with +</I>><i> > shell access), compiler and rpm tools (and of course their buildtime +</I>><i> > depencies). When all of that is imported and rebuilt, we have a working +</I>><i> > buildsystem / base to build from. +</I>><i> Are you (not specifically you thomas :p) going to check again the basesystem +</I>><i> dependencies/requirements, if i remember correctly the basesystem in mandriva is +</I>><i> not anymore a « real » basesystem ? +</I> +The explicit goal is to be able to boot, and start bash. Not bash and be +able to do anything useful with it :) +( ok, maybe a script with /dev/tcp to say "hello" on irc ). + +So if basesystem as a rpm is not enough, we will import what is needed +to complete it. + +><i> > Then we to go on with and start importing X, the different +</I>><i> > DE's and every other package needed to build a full distro. +</I>><i> Should not each package imported directly by the maintener here (for the DE), +</I>><i> so he's going to import (hopefully ?) only the real requirements so we'll be +</I>><i> able to drop « more » unused packages maybe? +</I> +Yes, but we do have some issues, ie, we need to import X and the other +layers upon which kde, gnome, xfce are built upon. And so we need to do +the import in the proper order. + +And we should make sure that someone take care of theses packages before +uploading. But this would likely be a topic for the packaging team ( ie, +comaintainenance, individual maintainance ), that should be started soon +(tm) + +-- +Michael Scherer + +</PRE> + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001542.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001554.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1547">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1547">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1547">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1547">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001548.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001548.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..54e1db1e3 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001548.html @@ -0,0 +1,158 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C201011301329.28967.stormi%40laposte.net%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001532.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001555.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Samuel Verschelde</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C201011301329.28967.stormi%40laposte.net%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">stormi at laposte.net + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 13:29:28 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001532.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001555.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1548">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1548">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1548">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1548">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE> +><i> > In Mandriva, you can find many examples of packages in main which are not supported in reality, +</I>><i> > or even maybe simply don't work. You can find also many packages in contrib which are +</I>><i> > perfectly supported, in cooker as in stable releases. You gave me examples. However I +</I>><i> > see very rarely security or bugfix updates for packages in contrib for stable releases +</I>><i> > (or sometimes they go to backports), whereas there are many security fixes and bugfixes +</I>><i> > for packages in main thanks to Mandriva's security team. There really is a difference +</I>><i> > between supported packages and other, although it's far from perfect. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> The difference is mainly that Mandriva has a team of 2 people full time +</I>><i> doing the bugfixes and security updates. We do not have them. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> So that's not because there is contribs that main got more bugfixes and +</I>><i> updates. That's because people are paid to do the work. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> And so there is no correlation between "there is updates in main" and +</I>><i> "there is a split". +</I> +Yes there is a correlation : there is a team of people working to provide quick support for a set of packages. Without a list of supported packages, they couldn't focus their work. However please remember that I agreed that the split mirror-side is not the only way to achieve such focus. + +Our main disagreement here is you prefer that we have the same level of support for any package in the distribution (which probably means very few packages in the distribution then) while I'd like many packages in the distribution, a subset of which is officially supported. At least, it worked well enough so that we could send more than 450 servers with Mandriva in French hospitals and use Mandriva at work on workstation. + +Why do I prefer a large package list to a list restricted to platinum-supported packages : I can build a system where the critical parts are supported, and if I need to add some less supported stuff, I still can. We should compare the ratio between packages in main and packages in contrib which are actually installed on people's systems. On our servers, that would be around 98% coming from main, and less than 2% coming from contrib. On my workstation, it would be probably 75% vs 25%. Main provides stability and security (regardless of some badly supported packages). Contrib provides choice.. + +><i> Seeing that everything is equally supported is a sign of a lack of +</I>><i> quality ? +</I> +It depends on the amount of available packages and available resources. 10000 packages *equally supported* with 30 packages, yep, that would be a sign of a lack of quality. If there are only 1000 packages, of course, this is different. I still prefer the 1000 supported packages + 9000 use-at-your-own-risk packages. + +><i> > Now if there were a list of supported packages, either it would not be officially supported and +</I>><i> > the user would know he could use it but maybe won't have security and bugfix updates, +</I>><i> > or it is officially supported. Now take the example above : +</I>><i> > - Someone checks if postgresql is supported because if not he'll use another distribution where it is +</I>><i> > - It is ! +</I>><i> > - However the maintainer went away doing his own fork, so he dropped maintainership. +</I>><i> > - Someone in QA Team rings a bell : "this supported package isn't supported anymore, +</I>><i> > but we promised we would support it for Mageia 2011 for 2 years from now ! We have +</I>><i> > to do something !" +</I>><i> > - The package team leader, or someone else, relays the warning and finds someone +</I>><i> > else to maintain the package, at least for Mageia 2011, for security and bugfix +</I>><i> > updates. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Please, I would appreciate that you do not arrange facts just to support +</I>><i> your point, or I will seriously have to reconsider answering in the +</I>><i> futur. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> In the first case : +</I>><i> package is not supported, no one step to maintain, we drop -> that's +</I>><i> bad. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> second case : +</I>><i> package is not supported, someone step, we don't drop -> that's good +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Why do you make the assumption that someone will step to maintain in 2nd +</I>><i> case and not in the first one ? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Just saying "it should be supported because it is on some official list" +</I>><i> is not really something that worked that well at Mandriva for the +</I>><i> community. +</I> +The way you make a caricature of my arguments is rude here. + +What I'm saying is totally different : + +In the first case : +- no one steps in to maintain it. We drop it. + +In the second case : +- no one steps in to maintain it. Because we promised to support it, and because there are people who care about that (the QA Team Leader for example), we would *try very hard* to find a solution. this is a problem, we identify the problem, we try to solve it. Maybe we fail, but at least we try hard, because the package is on the "supported" list. In my example I supposed we find a solution, because I suppose that we find it. If I were that kind of "person who cares", I'm sure I would find someone. Of course, if we flag too much packages as supported, then it may become actually impossible to support them all, but that would be failure due to the way we built the list of supported packages, not a problem in the process. + +><i> another solution : "we do no promises of supporting anything". +</I> +This is a solution. Not mine however. + +><i> Once we have started and done the first release of a alpha version, and +</I>><i> once we have a working team to package, then we can see what we can +</I>><i> support. For the moment, any discussion based on ressources is just +</I>><i> premature and likely not based on real data. +</I> +Well, my proposal (have a list of supported packages) is not that related to ressources. +If we have very few resources, let's begin by supporting just 10 packages, then grow the list progressively. + +><i> So splitting medias based on security support is just that, sending the +</I>><i> wrong sign to packagers. A clear sign that not maintaining package is +</I>><i> ok. But we should send this kind of sign if we really value quality and +</I>><i> if we want to communicate clearly to our users. +</I>><i> +</I> +I already abandoned the media splitting idea in favor of a list of very well supported packages list. + +Let me present the idea differently. There are 2 levels of support : + +- top guaranteed support (a subset of packages) : those are packages your can rely on blindly, they'll be updated in a timely manner. Those are the packages the QA Team puts its limited resources on (doesn't mean the QA Team provides support, but they check that good support is provided). The maintainer is responsible for the package, but the QA Team is vigilant about them. +- supported packages (every other package) : those are maintained packages, however the QA Team doesn't have to check them. It's up to the maintainer. +- unsupported packages are dropped. + +So everything is supported, but there a special level of support for some critical components. + +Regards + +Samuel + +</PRE> + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001532.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001555.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1548">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1548">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1548">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1548">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001549.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001549.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..feac1c01c --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001549.html @@ -0,0 +1,89 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Support policy + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Support%20policy&In-Reply-To=%3C201011301331.08850.stormi%40laposte.net%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001564.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001557.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Support policy</H1> + <B>Samuel Verschelde</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Support%20policy&In-Reply-To=%3C201011301331.08850.stormi%40laposte.net%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Support policy">stormi at laposte.net + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 13:31:08 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001564.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001557.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1549">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1549">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1549">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1549">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE> +Hi, + +I would like to discuss the support policy for Mageia. + +It would be interesting to know (or decide) where Mageia is heading, given our limited resources : +1) focus on stability and security : few very well equally supported packages. Apparently, this is where we're going for now. May be wise as a start, but I hope this is not our final destination, because it means either very limited choice, or progressive diminution of quality of support if the number of packages increases faster than the dedicated resources. +2) focus on choice : many packages, but no support policy. This would be really bad, I think we're not heading there, from what I read. However, this is a danger if we start from option 1) and then open wide the gates for importing packages, without setting a support policy. +3) focus on both (this is my option). There would be 2 levels of support : + - top guaranteed support : those are the (few at start) packages your can rely on almost blindly, they'll be updated in a timely manner, and updates don't break things. Those are the packages the QA Team puts its limited resources on (doesn't mean the QA Team provides the support themselves, this is maintainer work, but they check that good support is provided) : testing, helping the maintainers to watch for security problems... The maintainers are responsible for their package, but the QA Team double-checks updates for stable releases. + - supported packages (every other package) : those are maintained packages, however the QA Team doesn't have to check them. It's up to the maintainer to check the package and updates quality. + - unsupported packages are dropped. + +Are we heading for 1), 2), 3), or any other option ? + +Of course, with unlimited resources, options 1 and 3 would be equivalent, everything would have the "top guaranteed support" :) + +Best regards + +Samuel Verschelde +Packager/QA Team/User + +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001564.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001557.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1549">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1549">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1549">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1549">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001550.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001550.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..45de080da --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001550.html @@ -0,0 +1,109 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF4FF0D.7010404%40iki.fi%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001541.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001542.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Thomas Backlund</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF4FF0D.7010404%40iki.fi%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">tmb at iki.fi + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 14:41:33 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001541.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001542.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1550">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1550">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1550">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1550">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Jerome Quelin skrev 30.11.2010 12:48: +><i> On 10/11/30 12:37 +0200, Thomas Backlund wrote: +</I>>><i> We wont blindly import every package from cooker, instead we'll +</I>>><i> start off the import with basesystem (as in bootable system with +</I>>><i> shell access), compiler and rpm tools (and of course their buildtime +</I>>><i> depencies). When all of that is imported and rebuilt, we have a +</I>>><i> working buildsystem / base to build from. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Then we to go on with and start importing X, the different +</I>>><i> DE's and every other package needed to build a full distro. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> By doing it this way, we get a clean start, every package rebuilt, +</I>>><i> and no old/unmaintained stuff in the beginning. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Then as more maintainers join, I guess more packages will be imported +</I>>><i> from cooker and other sources. And packages can always be requested. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> sounds sensible to me. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> questions: +</I>><i> - how will the import be done? +</I> +It will be done by reviewing every srpm, drop anything mdv +"owned"/trademarked, and then committed to svn. This is to get a clean +svn to start from. + +><i> - is it up for the maintainer to request it? or only for non-base system +</I>><i> packages? +</I>><i> - or does the maintainer has a magic command to do? +</I> +maintainers will be able to import stuff into svn themselves. +More to follow soon regarding packagers / cleanup work. + +We will notify users when we open up the svn so people can start +reviewing/cleaning packages and commit it to svn + +Then a new notification will be sent when we consider BS fully open. + +><i> - will submitting a package for rebuild bork the list of maintainer (mdv +</I>><i> uses the "maintainer = 1st to submit" scheme) +</I> +I guess that will be so atleast for now. +This will be refined for packaging teams/maintainer groups... + +><i> - do we have an estimated planning with the different steps? +</I>><i> +</I> +Not yet, there are still some fixes needed to be done on youri to get it +fully working. + +-- +Thomas +</PRE> + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001541.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001542.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1550">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1550">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1550">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1550">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001551.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001551.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..01406bc0e --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001551.html @@ -0,0 +1,97 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF4FF61.7010706%40iki.fi%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001554.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001543.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Thomas Backlund</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF4FF61.7010706%40iki.fi%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">tmb at iki.fi + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 14:42:57 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001554.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001543.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1551">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1551">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1551">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1551">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Balcaen John skrev 30.11.2010 12:50: +><i> Le mardi 30 novembre 2010 07:37:42, Thomas Backlund a écrit : +</I>>><i> So, after reading all different opinions here and discussing with +</I>>><i> founders, here is the idea: +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> We start of with 3 medias: core, nonfree, tainted and 3 debug medias: +</I>>><i> debug_core, debug_nonfree, debug_tainted. In order to avoid confusion, +</I>>><i> we wont use the name "restricted" as it was used in MDV commercial +</I>>><i> products. +</I>>><i> +</I>><i> [...] +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> We wont blindly import every package from cooker, instead we'll +</I>>><i> start off the import with basesystem (as in bootable system with +</I>>><i> shell access), compiler and rpm tools (and of course their buildtime +</I>>><i> depencies). When all of that is imported and rebuilt, we have a working +</I>>><i> buildsystem / base to build from. +</I>><i> Are you (not specifically you thomas :p) going to check again the basesystem +</I>><i> dependencies/requirements, if i remember correctly the basesystem in mandriva is +</I>><i> not anymore a « real » basesystem ? +</I>><i> +</I> +Well, +technically it's basesystem-minimal that should be just that: minimal. +but it will be reviewed as everythng else. + +>><i> Then we to go on with and start importing X, the different +</I>>><i> DE's and every other package needed to build a full distro. +</I>><i> Should not each package imported directly by the maintener here (for the DE), +</I>><i> so he's going to import (hopefully ?) only the real requirements so we'll be +</I>><i> able to drop « more » unused packages maybe? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> [...] +</I>>><i> Can we reach an agreement that this is the way to start the distro? +</I>><i> Sure (even if i'm not followed for the 2 points before :p ) +</I>><i> +</I> +-- +Thomas +</PRE> + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001554.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001543.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1551">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1551">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1551">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1551">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001552.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001552.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..04be96231 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001552.html @@ -0,0 +1,125 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF50014.2040805%40iki.fi%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001545.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001546.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Thomas Backlund</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF50014.2040805%40iki.fi%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">tmb at iki.fi + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 14:45:56 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001545.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001546.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1552">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1552">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1552">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1552">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Samuel Verschelde skrev 30.11.2010 13:04: +><i> +</I>><i> Le mardi 30 novembre 2010 11:37:42, Thomas Backlund a écrit : +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> So, after reading all different opinions here and discussing with +</I>>><i> founders, here is the idea: +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> We start of with 3 medias: core, nonfree, tainted and 3 debug medias: +</I>>><i> debug_core, debug_nonfree, debug_tainted. In order to avoid confusion, +</I>>><i> we wont use the name "restricted" as it was used in MDV commercial products. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Now all of theese medias will have their 5 submedias: release, updates, +</I>>><i> updates_testing, backports, backports_testing. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> That brings us to 30 medias in total :) +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> The details of the media layout suggestion is also at the end of this +</I>>><i> mail, and at: <A HREF="http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=mirrors_policy">http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=mirrors_policy</A> +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Now... +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> We wont blindly import every package from cooker, instead we'll +</I>>><i> start off the import with basesystem (as in bootable system with +</I>>><i> shell access), compiler and rpm tools (and of course their buildtime +</I>>><i> depencies). When all of that is imported and rebuilt, we have a working +</I>>><i> buildsystem / base to build from. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Then we to go on with and start importing X, the different +</I>>><i> DE's and every other package needed to build a full distro. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> By doing it this way, we get a clean start, every package rebuilt, +</I>>><i> and no old/unmaintained stuff in the beginning. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Then as more maintainers join, I guess more packages will be imported +</I>>><i> from cooker and other sources. And packages can always be requested. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> As for those that want the core/extra split: +</I>>><i> We already tried it with main/contrib split. And I know mdv is now +</I>>><i> trying to refine what belongs in main or not, but thats for mdv +</I>>><i> to work through the "problem" as it wont be an easy task. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> For us I think the best way for now is to start with this suggested +</I>>><i> layout, and see if it works well for us. Remember, as Michael pointed +</I>>><i> out, this is a community supported distro, and only time will tell how +</I>>><i> well the community actually will support their distro. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Point is, if we later decide this is not working well, we can always +</I>>><i> review the decisions and if decided do the split. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Can we reach an agreement that this is the way to start the distro? +</I>>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> OK for me provided support policy matters are not discarded forever but only delayed to allow things to start. +</I>><i> +</I> +It wont be discarded. +We need to list package priority, wich ones must go through QA, and wich +ones that are subject to maintainer qa & testing + +><i> It would be great to start QA Team's organization as soon as possible. I don't think we need to wait for the BS and the packages to begin thinking about those matters. +</I>><i> +</I> +Yes, its time to start defining policies around all this and team creation. + +-- +Thomas +</PRE> + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001545.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001546.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1552">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1552">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1552">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1552">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001553.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001553.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..c9db42eff --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001553.html @@ -0,0 +1,85 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF50054.40503%40iki.fi%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001546.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001556.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Thomas Backlund</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF50054.40503%40iki.fi%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">tmb at iki.fi + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 14:47:00 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001546.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001556.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1553">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1553">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1553">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1553">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Anne nicolas skrev 30.11.2010 13:15: +><i> 2010/11/30 Thomas Backlund<<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">tmb at iki.fi</A>>: +</I>>><i> So, after reading all different opinions here and discussing with founders, +</I>>><i> here is the idea: +</I>><i> +</I>>><i> For us I think the best way for now is to start with this suggested +</I>>><i> layout, and see if it works well for us. Remember, as Michael pointed +</I>>><i> out, this is a community supported distro, and only time will tell how +</I>>><i> well the community actually will support their distro. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Point is, if we later decide this is not working well, we can always +</I>>><i> review the decisions and if decided do the split. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Can we reach an agreement that this is the way to start the distro? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Looks ok for me and the easiest layout we may achieve. Still we will +</I>><i> need to finalize policies about repositories content. +</I>><i> +</I> +True. + +A post on that will follow later today/tomorrow. + +-- +Thomas +</PRE> + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001546.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001556.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1553">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1553">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1553">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1553">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001554.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001554.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..e73ba66b4 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001554.html @@ -0,0 +1,90 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF50098.1080101%40iki.fi%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001547.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001551.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Thomas Backlund</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF50098.1080101%40iki.fi%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">tmb at iki.fi + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 14:48:08 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001547.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001551.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1554">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1554">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1554">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1554">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Michael Scherer skrev 30.11.2010 14:23: +><i> Le mardi 30 novembre 2010 à 07:50 -0300, Balcaen John a écrit : +</I>>><i> Le mardi 30 novembre 2010 07:37:42, Thomas Backlund a écrit : +</I>>>><i> So, after reading all different opinions here and discussing with +</I>>>><i> founders, here is the idea: +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> We start of with 3 medias: core, nonfree, tainted and 3 debug medias: +</I>>>><i> debug_core, debug_nonfree, debug_tainted. In order to avoid confusion, +</I>>>><i> we wont use the name "restricted" as it was used in MDV commercial +</I>>>><i> products. +</I>>>><i> +</I>>><i> [...] +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> We wont blindly import every package from cooker, instead we'll +</I>>>><i> start off the import with basesystem (as in bootable system with +</I>>>><i> shell access), compiler and rpm tools (and of course their buildtime +</I>>>><i> depencies). When all of that is imported and rebuilt, we have a working +</I>>>><i> buildsystem / base to build from. +</I>>><i> Are you (not specifically you thomas :p) going to check again the basesystem +</I>>><i> dependencies/requirements, if i remember correctly the basesystem in mandriva is +</I>>><i> not anymore a « real » basesystem ? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> The explicit goal is to be able to boot, and start bash. Not bash and be +</I>><i> able to do anything useful with it :) +</I>><i> ( ok, maybe a script with /dev/tcp to say "hello" on irc ). +</I>><i> +</I>><i> So if basesystem as a rpm is not enough, we will import what is needed +</I>><i> to complete it. +</I> +or basesystem-minimal :) + +-- +Thomas +</PRE> + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001547.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001551.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1554">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1554">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1554">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1554">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001555.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001555.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..4b7bd48ab --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001555.html @@ -0,0 +1,117 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTik3v7hatsN1zYGVH0%3DOoHmhzb%3D0az%3DSU3MmcQU2%40mail.gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001548.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001563.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Romain d'Alverny</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTik3v7hatsN1zYGVH0%3DOoHmhzb%3D0az%3DSU3MmcQU2%40mail.gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">rdalverny at gmail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 14:48:55 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001548.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001563.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1555">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1555">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1555">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1555">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 13:29, Samuel Verschelde <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">stormi at laposte.net</A>> wrote: +><i> What I'm saying is totally different : +</I>><i> +</I>><i> In the first case : +</I>><i> - no one steps in to maintain it. We drop it. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> In the second case : +</I>><i> - no one steps in to maintain it. Because we promised to support it, and because there are people who care about that (the QA Team Leader for example), we would *try very hard* to find a solution. this is a problem, we identify the problem, we try to solve it. Maybe we fail, but at least we try hard, because the package is on the "supported" list. +</I> +Ok, it's a degree of support management: + - first case, dropping is automatic, + - second case, we turn the red light on and try to organise around +this to find a "best effort" solution. + +But, in the second case, relying exclusively on the community, for the +support promise to work, you have to show that you have either some +separate incentive, either a large enough community to grow the +chances for this to happen. + +>><i> another solution : "we do no promises of supporting anything". +</I>><i> +</I>><i> This is a solution. Not mine however. +</I> +Not promising of something to happen is not a promise of this thing +not to happen. + +Such a promise of support is much more sustainable if you have a +clear, identifiable incentive or reason or experience (for the people +you promise to) to keep it. There are differences between: + * guaranteed, + * trying very hard, + * best effort, + * good will, + * nothing pretended + +support promises. + +><i> Let me present the idea differently. There are 2 levels of support : +</I>><i> +</I>><i> - top guaranteed support (a subset of packages) : those are packages your can rely on blindly, they'll be updated in a timely manner. Those are the packages the QA Team puts its limited resources on (doesn't mean the QA Team provides support, but they check that good support is provided). The maintainer is responsible for the package, but the QA Team is vigilant about them. +</I>><i> - supported packages (every other package) : those are maintained packages, however the QA Team doesn't have to check them. It's up to the maintainer. +</I>><i> - unsupported packages are dropped. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> So everything is supported, but there a special level of support for some critical components. +</I> +Just saying, but as packages support is to be distributed, we may as +well have commercial companies step around and manage this kind of +support: + * within/through Mageia through their employees (so, it matches our +policies, that's the idea), + * because it matches their activity/interest (they build the +software, they consult/sell/build around it). + +To help thinking about that (in the future, because now we have +nothing to track/compare) we need to collect and report relevant data +about packages management experience (supported, not supported, number +of updates, maintainers, time to push an update, etc.) against a first +policy. So we can measure what happens and what can be reasonably +changed/expected in the future. + +Romain +</PRE> + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001548.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001563.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1555">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1555">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1555">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1555">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001556.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001556.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..af74e4abb --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001556.html @@ -0,0 +1,134 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTim_1kyTGs%3Dmuxc1Js22tk0UKVYzP91abZ3xj4s9%40mail.gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001553.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001561.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Daniel Kreuter</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTim_1kyTGs%3Dmuxc1Js22tk0UKVYzP91abZ3xj4s9%40mail.gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">daniel.kreuter85 at googlemail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 12:23:35 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001553.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001561.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1556">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1556">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1556">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1556">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>2010/11/30 Thomas Backlund <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">tmb at iki.fi</A>> + +><i> * core +</I>><i> - enabled by default +</I>><i> - mirrors must mirror this media to be listed as a mirror +</I>><i> - only free/libre stuff as described by FSF / OSI +</I>><i> - must be selfcontained +</I>><i> +</I>><i> * nonfree +</I>><i> - disabled by default, installer will ask to enable it if +</I>><i> it detects hw that need driver/fw from here +</I>><i> - mirrors must mirror this media to be listed as a mirror +</I>><i> - contains apps/drivers/firmware that are free to redistribute +</I>><i> but we dont have redistributable source for +</I>><i> - for example: ati/nvidia drivers/firmware, Oracle Java, +</I>><i> Adobe stuff we might get redistribution permission for +</I>><i> +</I>><i> * tainted +</I>><i> - disabled by default +</I>><i> - mirrors are free to not mirror this media ( ? ) +</I>><i> - stuff we think we can redistribute, but that may have some +</I>><i> patent issues or other legal restrictions +</I>><i> - what belongs / is allowed here must still be discussed +</I>><i> +</I>><i> * debug_core +</I>><i> - disabled by default +</I>><i> - debug rpms for core +</I>><i> +</I>><i> * debug_nonfree +</I>><i> - disabled by default +</I>><i> - debug rpms for nonfree +</I>><i> +</I>><i> * debug_tainted +</I>><i> - disabled by default +</I>><i> - debug rpms for tainted +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Every media contains the same layout: +</I>><i> +</I>><i> * backports +</I>><i> - disabled by default +</I>><i> +</I>><i> * backports_testing +</I>><i> - disabled by default +</I>><i> +</I>><i> * release +</I>><i> - disabled by default on nonfree, installer will ask to enable +</I>><i> it if it detects hw that need driver/fw from here +</I>><i> - disabled by default on tainted, debug_core, debug_nonfree, +</I>><i> debug_tainted +</I>><i> +</I>><i> * updates +</I>><i> - disabled by default on nonfree, installer will ask to enable +</I>><i> it if it detects hw that need driver/fw from here +</I>><i> - disabled by default on tainted, debug_core, debug_nonfree, +</I>><i> debug_tainted +</I>><i> +</I>><i> * updates_testing +</I>><i> - disabled by default +</I>><i> +</I> +The Scheme sounds good. One only suggestion from my side, i would enable the +updates once the repositories are enabled. +For Example if I enable the non-free Repos i would like also to get the +Updates for them. or maybe only security fixes and enable the other updates +manually would be ok. + +-- +Mit freundlichen Grüßen + +Greetings + +Daniel Kreuter +-------------- next part -------------- +An HTML attachment was scrubbed... +URL: </pipermail/mageia-dev/attachments/20101130/3e5a8679/attachment-0001.html> +</PRE> + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001553.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001561.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1556">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1556">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1556">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1556">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001557.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001557.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..3bd7f7155 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001557.html @@ -0,0 +1,156 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Support policy + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Support%20policy&In-Reply-To=%3C1291130005.8266.507.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001549.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001558.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Support policy</H1> + <B>Michael Scherer</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Support%20policy&In-Reply-To=%3C1291130005.8266.507.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Support policy">misc at zarb.org + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 16:13:25 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001549.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001558.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1557">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1557">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1557">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1557">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Le mardi 30 novembre 2010 à 13:31 +0100, Samuel Verschelde a écrit : +><i> Hi, +</I>><i> +</I>><i> I would like to discuss the support policy for Mageia. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> It would be interesting to know (or decide) where Mageia is heading, given our limited resources : +</I> +can you first explain what are our ressources so you can explain how +limited you think they are ? + +><i> 1) focus on stability and security : few very well equally supported packages. Apparently, this is +</I>><i> where we're going for now. May be wise as a start, but I hope this is not our final destination, +</I>><i> because it means either very limited choice, or progressive diminution of quality of support if the +</I>><i> number of packages increases faster than the dedicated resources. +</I> +If we let people upload lots of packages without taking care of them, +yes, this will result in a decrease of quality. + +And if we do not increase ressources, this is what will happen. But I +said in lots of mail that increasing ressources must be our priority. + +And so basically, the question can be summarized as "do people prefer +packages that work or lots of packages" ? + +Quality or quantity ? +Yes, it is a black and white choice, but whatever the way you present, +you will ultimately have to do this choice at some moment. + +Choosing one doesn't mean that we should not have the other, obviously, +but when there is a choice to make, you can't avoid it. + +So let's compare what would they bring : + +Quality focus would bring : +- more confidence for admins to use the distribution +- more confidence for people that rely on it for various reasons +- less unhappy users on forums ( or at least, not unhappy because the +distribution is doing something bad ) + +Quantity focus would bring : +- arguments to convince people to use the distro "we have lots of rpm, +come here" ( as expressed in the previous thread ) +- likely more users ( because this would fullfill more needs ) + +In my opinion, focusing on quality will likely attract more technical +contributors. People that value something that work, that are willing to +devote time in bug reports, sending patchs because they know we also +focus on quality. People that are skilled enough to become packagers, QA +team member, or to give useful advice on forums, etc. + +And I think bringing contributors to fuel the development of the +distribution should be our first concern. First concern because that's +what allow to offer a good system for users, because that's what make it +sustainable in the long run, because the work of everybody will be +easier with a good system backed up by a solid technical community. + +Of course, that doesn't mean that we should not strive to have lots of +packages, and to try to provides choice to everybody. Just that this +need to be done in scalable and sustainable fashion. This usually mean +1) later and 2) slowly. + +Quality and quantity are not incompatible in the end. + +But we can't start to aim both quality and quantity at the same time. +Deciding to import all package or to review them is for example a case +where you can't focus on both at the same time. + +And so I think that to have quantity in the end, we must first choose +quality for the start to make the distribution grow on solid foundations +( and whith growth bring quantity ). + +Starting with quantity over quality doesn't increase quality at all in +the long run. This will bring more unhappy people ( see the various +complaint on Mandriva forums about "there is too many low quality +packages"), will instill a mindset that would be less than ideal for +contribution ("bug reporting is useless, people do not answer" ), and +therefore may not allow us to get enough ressources to grow and survive. + +So to me, the goal should be first to aim for quality, and then add more +packages, as I said, in a sustainable way ( ie no mass import without +being first sure that we can manage them, no rotting rpms because people +no longer care ). + +Which mean option 1. + +Yes, option 1 will likely frustrate people, because their favorite +packages might not be there. + +But we must realize that when we started this fork, we started a long +journey. And that things will be different at least for the start, and +that even when the first stable will be released, we will not have +finish our work, just really started it. + +-- +Michael Scherer + +</PRE> + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001549.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001558.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1557">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1557">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1557">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1557">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001558.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001558.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..a95b19704 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001558.html @@ -0,0 +1,91 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Support policy + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Support%20policy&In-Reply-To=%3C201011301632.33125.stormi%40laposte.net%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001557.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001559.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Support policy</H1> + <B>Samuel Verschelde</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Support%20policy&In-Reply-To=%3C201011301632.33125.stormi%40laposte.net%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Support policy">stormi at laposte.net + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 16:32:33 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001557.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001559.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1558">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1558">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1558">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1558">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE> +Le mardi 30 novembre 2010 16:13:25, Michael Scherer a écrit : +><i> +</I>><i> Le mardi 30 novembre 2010 à 13:31 +0100, Samuel Verschelde a écrit : +</I>><i> > Hi, +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > I would like to discuss the support policy for Mageia. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > It would be interesting to know (or decide) where Mageia is heading, given our limited resources : +</I>><i> +</I>><i> can you first explain what are our ressources so you can explain how +</I>><i> limited you think they are ? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> So to me, the goal should be first to aim for quality, and then add more +</I>><i> packages, as I said, in a sustainable way ( ie no mass import without +</I>><i> being first sure that we can manage them, no rotting rpms because people +</I>><i> no longer care ). +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Which mean option 1. +</I> +I may have mistaken, but from what I understood, you explained us why option 1 is better than option 2, which is what I already said in my post. + +So why not option 3, which in my opinion is even better than option 1, because : +- every package must have a maintainer like in option 1 +- QA Team focuses on a subset to provide even better support for them + +Regards + +Samuel + + +</PRE> + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001557.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001559.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1558">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1558">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1558">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1558">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001559.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001559.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..87900c16c --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001559.html @@ -0,0 +1,78 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Support policy + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Support%20policy&In-Reply-To=%3C201011301636.05739.stormi%40laposte.net%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001558.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001560.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Support policy</H1> + <B>Samuel Verschelde</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Support%20policy&In-Reply-To=%3C201011301636.05739.stormi%40laposte.net%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Support policy">stormi at laposte.net + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 16:36:05 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001558.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001560.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1559">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1559">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1559">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1559">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE> +Le mardi 30 novembre 2010 16:13:25, Michael Scherer a écrit : +><i> +</I>><i> Le mardi 30 novembre 2010 à 13:31 +0100, Samuel Verschelde a écrit : +</I>><i> > Hi, +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > I would like to discuss the support policy for Mageia. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > It would be interesting to know (or decide) where Mageia is heading, given our limited resources : +</I>><i> +</I>><i> can you first explain what are our ressources so you can explain how +</I>><i> limited you think they are ? +</I>><i> +</I> +Well, I can't because as you already told me we don't know what our resources will be. What I can guess is that they are limited because I know no free software project where there's too much resources. + +Samuel + +</PRE> + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001558.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001560.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1559">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1559">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1559">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1559">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001560.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001560.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..987e719d6 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001560.html @@ -0,0 +1,152 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Support policy + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Support%20policy&In-Reply-To=%3C1291136978.8266.561.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001559.html"> + + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Support policy</H1> + <B>Michael Scherer</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Support%20policy&In-Reply-To=%3C1291136978.8266.561.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Support policy">misc at zarb.org + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 18:09:38 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001559.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A></li> + + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1560">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1560">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1560">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1560">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Le mardi 30 novembre 2010 à 16:36 +0100, Samuel Verschelde a écrit : +><i> Le mardi 30 novembre 2010 16:13:25, Michael Scherer a écrit : +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > Le mardi 30 novembre 2010 à 13:31 +0100, Samuel Verschelde a écrit : +</I>><i> > > Hi, +</I>><i> > > +</I>><i> > > I would like to discuss the support policy for Mageia. +</I>><i> > > +</I>><i> > > It would be interesting to know (or decide) where Mageia is heading, given our limited resources : +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > can you first explain what are our ressources so you can explain how +</I>><i> > limited you think they are ? +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Well, I can't because as you already told me we don't know what our resources will be. +</I>><i> What I can guess is that they are limited because I know no free software project +</I>><i> where there's too much resources. +</I> +Well, from a physical point of view, everything is limited, so saying +"limited ressources" didn't indeed told much. + +I think that the ressources at Mandriva could be summarized as "around 1 +to 3 full time people ( maybe more, maybe less, and likely not full time +on the stable free distro )". + +Which is not balanced at all when compared to the ressources that were +placed in packaging. Ie, there was much more people to produce rpm than +people to +1) take care of update ( secteam, 2 people ) +2) take care of testing update ( qateam, 1-3 people ) + +Being unbalanced lead to the main/contribs split with the complexity and +problem that went with it. Of course, the goal is not to have less +packagers, but rather more Qa people, the 2 being not exclusive. + +This then bring to the simple question is "why did we have more +packagers than QA ?" + +My own opinion is that because packaging was opened to external +contribution since almost the start ( since 10 years, packagers number +have growth ), while QA was not, and I suppose that was due to a lack of +time devoted on making QA more open ( ironically likely due to a lack of +ressources at the first place ). + +And so, I think we are now in a totally different situation. QA will be +more open, because it cannot be closed. We can ( and I think we should ) +make the QA ressources grow with the packagers one ( among others ). + +So how can we do ? + +While this may not seems apparent at first sight, I think that Fedora is +actually leading in term of community QA process ( we still had the lead +in term of automated QA ). + +Basically, packages that are updated requires to be noted, with a system +of karma ( <A HREF="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Bodhi_Guide#Karma">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Bodhi_Guide#Karma</A> ). +Positive karma, the update is pushed, negative, it is not. + +Anybody can test anything, even if there is also a proven tester group. + +There is even the concept of critical path packages, aka very important +package that must be deeply tested +( <A HREF="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Critical_Path_Packages">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Critical_Path_Packages</A> ). + +Of course, the system is not perfect and will not solve everything. For +example, last week, openldap update broke server functionality : +( <A HREF="http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2010-November/146097.html">http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2010-November/146097.html</A> ) + +But still, having community enabled QA is a great way to have every grow +properly. +And in fact, that's exactly one of the feature of your project +mageia-app-db. So we could indeed have a better QAteam by easing the +work of community, using mageia-app-db. Ie, take regular user, and turn +them in QA team member. + +And so, doing like this would enable to give us : +- real involvement from some users +- balanced community, not overwhelmed by technical maniac packagers +( like me ) +- having a better Qa, for a better system + +So while nothing is done, while I am not a member of the QA team nor a +leader, while I just speak to voice my opinion, and while this is just a +proposal based on what other have done to solve the same issue than us, +this show that we can have more ressources than what Mandriva had. + +Ie, we need to think with a fresh mind, and I am sure that people can +creatively propose solutions on the problem : + +"how can we have a more balanced QA and packagers team". + + +-- +Michael Scherer + +</PRE> + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001559.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A></li> + + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1560">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1560">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1560">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1560">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001561.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001561.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..6c2681060 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001561.html @@ -0,0 +1,69 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF5414E.3000200%40zamiz.net%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001556.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001562.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Yann Ciret</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF5414E.3000200%40zamiz.net%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">mageia at zamiz.net + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 19:24:14 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001556.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001562.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1561">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1561">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1561">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1561">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Le 30/11/2010 11:37, Thomas Backlund a écrit : +><i> +</I>><i> Can we reach an agreement that this is the way to start the distro? +</I>><i> +</I>I agree with this proposal. + +Regards +Yann + + + + +</PRE> + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001556.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001562.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1561">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1561">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1561">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1561">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001562.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001562.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..5b102f725 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001562.html @@ -0,0 +1,64 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C201011302133.19033.r.h.michel%2Bmageia%40gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001561.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001564.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Renaud MICHEL</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C201011302133.19033.r.h.michel%2Bmageia%40gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">r.h.michel+mageia at gmail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 21:33:19 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001561.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001564.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1562">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1562">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1562">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1562">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>On mardi 30 novembre 2010 at 11:37, Thomas Backlund wrote : +><i> Can we reach an agreement that this is the way to start the distro? +</I> +I agree. + +-- +Renaud Michel +</PRE> + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001561.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001564.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1562">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1562">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1562">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1562">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001563.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001563.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..2024f3621 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/001563.html @@ -0,0 +1,233 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C201011302311.25889.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001555.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001534.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Maarten Vanraes</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C201011302311.25889.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 23:11:25 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001555.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001534.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1563">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1563">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1563">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1563">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Op dinsdag 30 november 2010 13:29:28 schreef Samuel Verschelde: +><i> > > In Mandriva, you can find many examples of packages in main which are +</I>><i> > > not supported in reality, +</I>><i> > > +</I>><i> > > or even maybe simply don't work. You can find also many packages in +</I>><i> > > contrib which are +</I>><i> > > +</I>><i> > > perfectly supported, in cooker as in stable releases. You gave me +</I>><i> > > examples. However I see very rarely security or bugfix updates for +</I>><i> > > packages in contrib for stable releases (or sometimes they go to +</I>><i> > > backports), whereas there are many security fixes and bugfixes for +</I>><i> > > packages in main thanks to Mandriva's security team. There really is a +</I>><i> > > difference between supported packages and other, although it's far +</I>><i> > > from perfect. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > The difference is mainly that Mandriva has a team of 2 people full time +</I>><i> > doing the bugfixes and security updates. We do not have them. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > So that's not because there is contribs that main got more bugfixes and +</I>><i> > updates. That's because people are paid to do the work. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > And so there is no correlation between "there is updates in main" and +</I>><i> > "there is a split". +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Yes there is a correlation : there is a team of people working to provide +</I>><i> quick support for a set of packages. Without a list of supported packages, +</I>><i> they couldn't focus their work. However please remember that I agreed that +</I>><i> the split mirror-side is not the only way to achieve such focus. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Our main disagreement here is you prefer that we have the same level of +</I>><i> support for any package in the distribution (which probably means very few +</I>><i> packages in the distribution then) while I'd like many packages in the +</I>><i> distribution, a subset of which is officially supported. At least, it +</I>><i> worked well enough so that we could send more than 450 servers with +</I>><i> Mandriva in French hospitals and use Mandriva at work on workstation. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Why do I prefer a large package list to a list restricted to +</I>><i> platinum-supported packages : I can build a system where the critical +</I>><i> parts are supported, and if I need to add some less supported stuff, I +</I>><i> still can. We should compare the ratio between packages in main and +</I>><i> packages in contrib which are actually installed on people's systems. On +</I>><i> our servers, that would be around 98% coming from main, and less than 2% +</I>><i> coming from contrib. On my workstation, it would be probably 75% vs 25%. +</I>><i> Main provides stability and security (regardless of some badly supported +</I>><i> packages). Contrib provides choice.. +</I> +I do see a point here. + +><i> > Seeing that everything is equally supported is a sign of a lack of +</I>><i> > quality ? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> It depends on the amount of available packages and available resources. +</I>><i> 10000 packages *equally supported* with 30 packages, yep, that would be a +</I>><i> sign of a lack of quality. If there are only 1000 packages, of course, +</I>><i> this is different. I still prefer the 1000 supported packages + 9000 +</I>><i> use-at-your-own-risk packages. +</I> +It is true that it could be viewed as such by people. + +><i> > > Now if there were a list of supported packages, either it would not be +</I>><i> > > officially supported and the user would know he could use it but maybe +</I>><i> > > won't have security and bugfix updates, or it is officially supported. +</I>><i> > > Now take the example above : +</I>><i> > > - Someone checks if postgresql is supported because if not he'll use +</I>><i> > > another distribution where it is - It is ! +</I>><i> > > - However the maintainer went away doing his own fork, so he dropped +</I>><i> > > maintainership. - Someone in QA Team rings a bell : "this supported +</I>><i> > > package isn't supported anymore, but we promised we would support it +</I>><i> > > for Mageia 2011 for 2 years from now ! We have to do something !" +</I>><i> > > - The package team leader, or someone else, relays the warning and +</I>><i> > > finds someone else to maintain the package, at least for Mageia 2011, +</I>><i> > > for security and bugfix updates. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > Please, I would appreciate that you do not arrange facts just to support +</I>><i> > your point, or I will seriously have to reconsider answering in the +</I>><i> > futur. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > In the first case : +</I>><i> > package is not supported, no one step to maintain, we drop -> that's +</I>><i> > bad. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > second case : +</I>><i> > package is not supported, someone step, we don't drop -> that's good +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > Why do you make the assumption that someone will step to maintain in 2nd +</I>><i> > case and not in the first one ? +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > Just saying "it should be supported because it is on some official list" +</I>><i> > is not really something that worked that well at Mandriva for the +</I>><i> > community. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> The way you make a caricature of my arguments is rude here. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> What I'm saying is totally different : +</I>><i> +</I>><i> In the first case : +</I>><i> - no one steps in to maintain it. We drop it. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> In the second case : +</I>><i> - no one steps in to maintain it. Because we promised to support it, and +</I>><i> because there are people who care about that (the QA Team Leader for +</I>><i> example), we would *try very hard* to find a solution. this is a problem, +</I>><i> we identify the problem, we try to solve it. Maybe we fail, but at least +</I>><i> we try hard, because the package is on the "supported" list. In my example +</I>><i> I supposed we find a solution, because I suppose that we find it. If I +</I>><i> were that kind of "person who cares", I'm sure I would find someone. Of +</I>><i> course, if we flag too much packages as supported, then it may become +</I>><i> actually impossible to support them all, but that would be failure due to +</I>><i> the way we built the list of supported packages, not a problem in the +</I>><i> process. +</I> +a distinction of supportyness would be interesting; however this is a non- +profit organisation, so, unless we have a list of people who will jump in for +essential package takeovers, not easily done. + +><i> > another solution : "we do no promises of supporting anything". +</I>><i> +</I>><i> This is a solution. Not mine however. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> > Once we have started and done the first release of a alpha version, and +</I>><i> > once we have a working team to package, then we can see what we can +</I>><i> > support. For the moment, any discussion based on ressources is just +</I>><i> > premature and likely not based on real data. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Well, my proposal (have a list of supported packages) is not that related +</I>><i> to ressources. If we have very few resources, let's begin by supporting +</I>><i> just 10 packages, then grow the list progressively. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> > So splitting medias based on security support is just that, sending the +</I>><i> > wrong sign to packagers. A clear sign that not maintaining package is +</I>><i> > ok. But we should send this kind of sign if we really value quality and +</I>><i> > if we want to communicate clearly to our users. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> I already abandoned the media splitting idea in favor of a list of very +</I>><i> well supported packages list. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Let me present the idea differently. There are 2 levels of support : +</I>><i> +</I>><i> - top guaranteed support (a subset of packages) : those are packages your +</I>><i> can rely on blindly, they'll be updated in a timely manner. Those are the +</I>><i> packages the QA Team puts its limited resources on (doesn't mean the QA +</I>><i> Team provides support, but they check that good support is provided). The +</I>><i> maintainer is responsible for the package, but the QA Team is vigilant +</I>><i> about them. - supported packages (every other package) : those are +</I>><i> maintained packages, however the QA Team doesn't have to check them. It's +</I>><i> up to the maintainer. - unsupported packages are dropped. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> So everything is supported, but there a special level of support for some +</I>><i> critical components. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Regards +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Samuel +</I> + +I would like to stop this discussion and give a point of view from myself. + +in the optimal world, mirror layout is best to be made for the easyness of the +mirror admins. + +I would propose we do it like misc says, except that we find another solution +to make the supportyness distinction. + +I know this could affect the mirror layout, but in the optimal world, it +shouldn't. I think since we are a non-profit organisation (and therefor +idealists), that we should look at this positively and find another solution +for the distinction, if it is required. + +but that's another discussion, imho. + +Personally, i like this distinction, i would like to limit the packages for my +fathers computer to the most supported ones, for my own ease. + +maybe a well-tested tag or whatever? let's discuss this elsewhere. + + +we don't have time to let every discussion drag into other discussions that +are a little bit related. let's try to separate things as much as possible. +</PRE> + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001555.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001534.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1563">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1563">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1563">[ subject 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</HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1> + <B>Sam Bailey</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C2dd2accaa4446886c6bf5afcc2ba2079%40mail.cyprix%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">cyprix at cyprix.com.au + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Nov 30 23:09:31 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001562.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001549.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1564">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1564">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1564">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1564">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 12:37:42 +0200, Thomas Backlund <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">tmb at iki.fi</A>> wrote: +><i> Can we reach an agreement that this is the way to start the distro? +</I>><i> +</I> +I also agree with this structure. + +-- +Sam Bailey + +Cyprix Enterprises +Web: cyprix.com.au +Em: <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">cyprix at cyprix.com.au</A> +Mb: 0425 796 308 +</PRE> + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001562.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001549.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1564">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1564">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1564">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1564">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/author.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/author.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..5d810faca --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/author.html @@ -0,0 +1,237 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <title>The Mageia-dev 30 November 2010 Archive by author</title> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="noindex,follow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <a name="start"></A> + <h1>30 November 2010 Archives by author</h1> + <ul> + <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b> + <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a> + + <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a> + + <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More info on this list... + </a></b></li> + </ul> + <p><b>Starting:</b> <i>Tue Nov 30 00:52:11 CET 2010</i><br> + <b>Ending:</b> <i>Tue Nov 30 23:11:25 CET 2010</i><br> + <b>Messages:</b> 38<p> + <ul> + +<LI><A HREF="001540.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1540"> </A> +<I>Thomas Backlund +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001550.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1550"> </A> +<I>Thomas Backlund +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001551.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1551"> </A> +<I>Thomas Backlund +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001552.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1552"> </A> +<I>Thomas Backlund +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001553.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1553"> </A> +<I>Thomas Backlund +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001554.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1554"> </A> +<I>Thomas Backlund +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001564.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1564"> </A> +<I>Sam Bailey +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001538.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1538"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001561.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1561"> </A> +<I>Yann Ciret +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001542.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1542"> </A> +<I>Balcaen John +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001556.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1556"> </A> +<I>Daniel Kreuter +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001562.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1562"> </A> +<I>Renaud MICHEL +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001537.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1537"> </A> +<I>Jerome Quelin +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001541.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1541"> </A> +<I>Jerome Quelin +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001539.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1539"> </A> +<I>Ahmad Samir +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001527.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1527"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001529.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1529"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001532.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1532"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001533.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1533"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001534.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1534"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001535.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1535"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001547.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1547"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001557.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A><A NAME="1557"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001560.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A><A NAME="1560"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001563.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1563"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001545.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1545"> </A> +<I>Samuel Verschelde +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001548.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1548"> </A> +<I>Samuel Verschelde +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001549.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A><A NAME="1549"> </A> +<I>Samuel Verschelde +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001558.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A><A NAME="1558"> </A> +<I>Samuel Verschelde +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001559.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A><A NAME="1559"> </A> +<I>Samuel Verschelde +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001528.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1528"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001530.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1530"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001531.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1531"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001536.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1536"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001543.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1543"> </A> +<I>Romain d'Alverny +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001555.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1555"> </A> +<I>Romain d'Alverny +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001546.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1546"> </A> +<I>Anne nicolas +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001544.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1544"> </A> +<I>nicolas vigier +</I> + + </ul> + <p> + <a name="end"><b>Last message date:</b></a> + <i>Tue Nov 30 23:11:25 CET 2010</i><br> + <b>Archived on:</b> <i>Tue Nov 30 23:19:29 CET 2010</i> + <p> + <ul> + <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b> + <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a> + + <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a> + <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More info on this list... + </a></b></li> + </ul> + <p> + <hr> + <i>This archive was generated by + Pipermail 0.09 (Mailman edition).</i> + </BODY> +</HTML> + diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/date.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/date.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..c38c30249 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/date.html @@ -0,0 +1,237 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <title>The Mageia-dev 30 November 2010 Archive by date</title> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="noindex,follow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <a name="start"></A> + <h1>30 November 2010 Archives by date</h1> + <ul> + <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b> + <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a> + + + <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More info on this list... + </a></b></li> + </ul> + <p><b>Starting:</b> <i>Tue Nov 30 00:52:11 CET 2010</i><br> + <b>Ending:</b> <i>Tue Nov 30 23:11:25 CET 2010</i><br> + <b>Messages:</b> 38<p> + <ul> + +<LI><A HREF="001527.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1527"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001528.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1528"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001529.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1529"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001530.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1530"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001531.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1531"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001532.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1532"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001533.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1533"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001534.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1534"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001535.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1535"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001536.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1536"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001537.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1537"> </A> +<I>Jerome Quelin +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001538.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1538"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001539.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1539"> </A> +<I>Ahmad Samir +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001540.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1540"> </A> +<I>Thomas Backlund +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001541.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1541"> </A> +<I>Jerome Quelin +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001542.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1542"> </A> +<I>Balcaen John +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001543.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1543"> </A> +<I>Romain d'Alverny +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001544.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1544"> </A> +<I>nicolas vigier +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001545.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1545"> </A> +<I>Samuel Verschelde +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001546.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1546"> </A> +<I>Anne nicolas +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001556.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1556"> </A> +<I>Daniel Kreuter +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001547.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1547"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001548.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1548"> </A> +<I>Samuel Verschelde +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001549.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A><A NAME="1549"> </A> +<I>Samuel Verschelde +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001550.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1550"> </A> +<I>Thomas Backlund +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001551.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1551"> </A> +<I>Thomas Backlund +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001552.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1552"> </A> +<I>Thomas Backlund +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001553.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1553"> </A> +<I>Thomas Backlund +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001554.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1554"> </A> +<I>Thomas Backlund +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001555.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1555"> </A> +<I>Romain d'Alverny +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001557.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A><A NAME="1557"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001558.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A><A NAME="1558"> </A> +<I>Samuel Verschelde +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001559.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A><A NAME="1559"> </A> +<I>Samuel Verschelde +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001560.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A><A NAME="1560"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001561.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1561"> </A> +<I>Yann Ciret +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001562.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1562"> </A> +<I>Renaud MICHEL +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001564.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1564"> </A> +<I>Sam Bailey +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001563.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1563"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + + </ul> + <p> + <a name="end"><b>Last message date:</b></a> + <i>Tue Nov 30 23:11:25 CET 2010</i><br> + <b>Archived on:</b> <i>Tue Nov 30 23:19:29 CET 2010</i> + <p> + <ul> + <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b> + <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a> + + <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More info on this list... + </a></b></li> + </ul> + <p> + <hr> + <i>This archive was generated by + Pipermail 0.09 (Mailman edition).</i> + </BODY> +</HTML> + diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/index.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/index.html new file mode 120000 index 000000000..db4b46f72 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/index.html @@ -0,0 +1 @@ +thread.html
\ No newline at end of file diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/subject.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/subject.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..1aa1b3da2 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/subject.html @@ -0,0 +1,237 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <title>The Mageia-dev 30 November 2010 Archive by subject</title> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="noindex,follow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <a name="start"></A> + <h1>30 November 2010 Archives by subject</h1> + <ul> + <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b> + <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a> + + <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a> + <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a> + + <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More info on this list... + </a></b></li> + </ul> + <p><b>Starting:</b> <i>Tue Nov 30 00:52:11 CET 2010</i><br> + <b>Ending:</b> <i>Tue Nov 30 23:11:25 CET 2010</i><br> + <b>Messages:</b> 38<p> + <ul> + +<LI><A HREF="001527.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1527"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001528.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1528"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001529.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1529"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001530.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1530"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001531.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1531"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001532.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1532"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001533.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1533"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001534.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1534"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001535.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1535"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001536.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1536"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001537.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1537"> </A> +<I>Jerome Quelin +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001538.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1538"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001539.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1539"> </A> +<I>Ahmad Samir +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001540.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1540"> </A> +<I>Thomas Backlund +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001541.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1541"> </A> +<I>Jerome Quelin +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001542.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1542"> </A> +<I>Balcaen John +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001543.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1543"> </A> +<I>Romain d'Alverny +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001544.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1544"> </A> +<I>nicolas vigier +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001545.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1545"> </A> +<I>Samuel Verschelde +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001546.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1546"> </A> +<I>Anne nicolas +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001556.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1556"> </A> +<I>Daniel Kreuter +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001547.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1547"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001548.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1548"> </A> +<I>Samuel Verschelde +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001550.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1550"> </A> +<I>Thomas Backlund +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001551.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1551"> </A> +<I>Thomas Backlund +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001552.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1552"> </A> +<I>Thomas Backlund +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001553.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1553"> </A> +<I>Thomas Backlund +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001554.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1554"> </A> +<I>Thomas Backlund +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001555.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1555"> </A> +<I>Romain d'Alverny +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001561.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1561"> </A> +<I>Yann Ciret +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001562.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1562"> </A> +<I>Renaud MICHEL +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001564.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1564"> </A> +<I>Sam Bailey +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001563.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1563"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001549.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A><A NAME="1549"> </A> +<I>Samuel Verschelde +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001557.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A><A NAME="1557"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001558.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A><A NAME="1558"> </A> +<I>Samuel Verschelde +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001559.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A><A NAME="1559"> </A> +<I>Samuel Verschelde +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="001560.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A><A NAME="1560"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + + </ul> + <p> + <a name="end"><b>Last message date:</b></a> + <i>Tue Nov 30 23:11:25 CET 2010</i><br> + <b>Archived on:</b> <i>Tue Nov 30 23:19:29 CET 2010</i> + <p> + <ul> + <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b> + <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a> + + <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a> + <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a> + <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More info on this list... + </a></b></li> + </ul> + <p> + <hr> + <i>This archive was generated by + Pipermail 0.09 (Mailman edition).</i> + </BODY> +</HTML> + diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/thread.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/thread.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..a01959a5d --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101130/thread.html @@ -0,0 +1,307 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <title>The Mageia-dev 30 November 2010 Archive by thread</title> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="noindex,follow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <a name="start"></A> + <h1>30 November 2010 Archives by thread</h1> + <ul> + <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b> + + <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a> + <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a> + + <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More info on this list... + </a></b></li> + </ul> + <p><b>Starting:</b> <i>Tue Nov 30 00:52:11 CET 2010</i><br> + <b>Ending:</b> <i>Tue Nov 30 23:11:25 CET 2010</i><br> + <b>Messages:</b> 38<p> + <ul> + +<!--0 01291074731- --> +<LI><A HREF="001527.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1527"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<!--0 01291079179- --> +<LI><A HREF="001528.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1528"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<UL> +<!--1 01291079179-01291089949- --> +<LI><A HREF="001535.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1535"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +</UL> +<!--0 01291080095- --> +<LI><A HREF="001529.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1529"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<UL> +<!--1 01291080095-01291082481- --> +<LI><A HREF="001531.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1531"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +</UL> +<!--0 01291082099- --> +<LI><A HREF="001530.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1530"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<UL> +<!--1 01291082099-01291086556- --> +<LI><A HREF="001533.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1533"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<UL> +<!--2 01291082099-01291086556-01291094957- --> +<LI><A HREF="001536.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1536"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<UL> +<!--3 01291082099-01291086556-01291094957-01291103422- --> +<LI><A HREF="001537.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1537"> </A> +<I>Jerome Quelin +</I> + +<!--3 01291082099-01291086556-01291094957-01291103422-01291104954- --> +<LI><A HREF="001538.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1538"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<!--3 01291082099-01291086556-01291094957-01291110360- --> +<LI><A HREF="001539.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1539"> </A> +<I>Ahmad Samir +</I> + +</UL> +</UL> +</UL> +<!--0 01291085436- --> +<LI><A HREF="001532.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1532"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<UL> +<!--1 01291085436-01291120168- --> +<LI><A HREF="001548.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1548"> </A> +<I>Samuel Verschelde +</I> + +<UL> +<!--2 01291085436-01291120168-01291124935- --> +<LI><A HREF="001555.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1555"> </A> +<I>Romain d'Alverny +</I> + +<!--2 01291085436-01291120168-01291155085- --> +<LI><A HREF="001563.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1563"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + +</UL> +</UL> +<!--0 01291088845- --> +<LI><A HREF="001534.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1534"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<!--0 01291113462- --> +<LI><A HREF="001540.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1540"> </A> +<I>Thomas Backlund +</I> + +<UL> +<!--1 01291113462-01291114129- --> +<LI><A HREF="001541.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1541"> </A> +<I>Jerome Quelin +</I> + +<UL> +<!--2 01291113462-01291114129-01291124493- --> +<LI><A HREF="001550.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1550"> </A> +<I>Thomas Backlund +</I> + +</UL> +<!--1 01291113462-01291114210- --> +<LI><A HREF="001542.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1542"> </A> +<I>Balcaen John +</I> + +<UL> +<!--2 01291113462-01291114210-01291119782- --> +<LI><A HREF="001547.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1547"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<UL> +<!--3 01291113462-01291114210-01291119782-01291124888- --> +<LI><A HREF="001554.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1554"> </A> +<I>Thomas Backlund +</I> + +</UL> +<!--2 01291113462-01291114210-01291124577- --> +<LI><A HREF="001551.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1551"> </A> +<I>Thomas Backlund +</I> + +</UL> +<!--1 01291113462-01291114934- --> +<LI><A HREF="001543.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1543"> </A> +<I>Romain d'Alverny +</I> + +<!--1 01291113462-01291115065- --> +<LI><A HREF="001544.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1544"> </A> +<I>nicolas vigier +</I> + +<!--1 01291113462-01291115089- --> +<LI><A HREF="001545.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1545"> </A> +<I>Samuel Verschelde +</I> + +<UL> +<!--2 01291113462-01291115089-01291124756- --> +<LI><A HREF="001552.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1552"> </A> +<I>Thomas Backlund +</I> + +</UL> +<!--1 01291113462-01291115726- --> +<LI><A HREF="001546.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1546"> </A> +<I>Anne nicolas +</I> + +<UL> +<!--2 01291113462-01291115726-01291124820- --> +<LI><A HREF="001553.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1553"> </A> +<I>Thomas Backlund +</I> + +</UL> +<!--1 01291113462-01291116215- --> +<LI><A HREF="001556.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1556"> </A> +<I>Daniel Kreuter +</I> + +<!--1 01291113462-01291141454- --> +<LI><A HREF="001561.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1561"> </A> +<I>Yann Ciret +</I> + +<!--1 01291113462-01291149199- --> +<LI><A HREF="001562.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1562"> </A> +<I>Renaud MICHEL +</I> + +<!--1 01291113462-01291154971- --> +<LI><A HREF="001564.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two +</A><A NAME="1564"> </A> +<I>Sam Bailey +</I> + +</UL> +<!--0 01291120268- --> +<LI><A HREF="001549.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A><A NAME="1549"> </A> +<I>Samuel Verschelde +</I> + +<UL> +<!--1 01291120268-01291130005- --> +<LI><A HREF="001557.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A><A NAME="1557"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<UL> +<!--2 01291120268-01291130005-01291131153- --> +<LI><A HREF="001558.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A><A NAME="1558"> </A> +<I>Samuel Verschelde +</I> + +<!--2 01291120268-01291130005-01291131365- --> +<LI><A HREF="001559.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A><A NAME="1559"> </A> +<I>Samuel Verschelde +</I> + +<UL> +<!--3 01291120268-01291130005-01291131365-01291136978- --> +<LI><A HREF="001560.html">[Mageia-dev] Support policy +</A><A NAME="1560"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +</UL> +</UL> +</UL> + </ul> + <p> + <a name="end"><b>Last message date:</b></a> + <i>Tue Nov 30 23:11:25 CET 2010</i><br> + <b>Archived on:</b> <i>Tue Nov 30 23:19:29 CET 2010</i> + <p> + <ul> + <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b> + + <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a> + <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a> + <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More info on this list... + </a></b></li> + </ul> + <p> + <hr> + <i>This archive was generated by + Pipermail 0.09 (Mailman edition).</i> + </BODY> +</HTML> + |