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diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002619.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002619.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..c546876af --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002619.html @@ -0,0 +1,154 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20network%20balancing%20by%20default&In-Reply-To=%3C201010250000.46478.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002630.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default</H1> + <B>Maarten Vanraes</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20network%20balancing%20by%20default&In-Reply-To=%3C201010250000.46478.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 00:00:46 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002630.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2619">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2619">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2619">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2619">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Op zondag 24 oktober 2010 22:39:29 schreef Luca Berra: +><i> On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 11:43:28AM +0200, Maarten Vanraes wrote: +</I>><i> >I would propose the following: +</I> +First off, the timing of this proposal is probably too soon, i just wanted to +get it out there, in case i forgot later. + +><i> >A.) by default, add for every interface, a little advanced routing which +</I>><i> >makes packets return from the same way they came. +</I>><i> >This usually is only useful with incoming packets, but can still be useful +</I>><i> >if laptops have for example 2 gateways because the wifi is still on and +</I>><i> >the cable is too. That would mean that from both interfaces it'd be +</I>><i> >possible to use ssh or vnc or whatever. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> this is possible with incoming packets, but, how do you select the +</I>><i> source of a new one? +</I> +this step is only for the replies of incoming packets and never has any effect +on new outgoing packets; this step doesn't change anything for new outgoing +packets. and this can even be used on interfaces that aren't used as default +gateway. + +><i> >B.) if we have multiple gateways (like in that case), have them use both +</I>><i> >balancedly. ie: start a small daemon which checks which of the gateways is +</I>><i> >up or down; and change the default gateway accordingly, or even both in +</I>><i> >some kind of balanced mode. (with advanced routing.) +</I>><i> +</I>><i> This could go wrong in so many ways i would not even try: +</I>><i> i.e. how do you determine if a gateway is up? dont tell me icmp, many +</I>><i> firewall refuse it, and vrrp standard says the backup gateway should not +</I>><i> answer icmp echo. +</I> +there are alot of different aspects to what we consider as a "working" isp +connection. + +this isn't about having perfection; it's about improving what we have now. + + +Consider a laptop user; the user has a network connection and also has his wifi +up. + +You will notice that there are in fact 2 default gateways (possibly with +different metric, but we cannot be sure). + +what i propose is to use both together balanced by default. + +this in itself is an improvement; the parts about detection of "up" or "down" +(except the interface itself) are extras, after all, the same issues can even +happen with one gateway. + + +Balancing is even more usefull if there are ways of automatically detecting +which interfaces are unwanted for routing. + +(TBH you assumed icmp is what would be used; we all know icmp can be blocked +and is never relied on..) + +possible problems: +A) interface down +B) DHCP expired +C) gateway down +D) further routing down +E) DNS down + +A is trivial, so we'll just skip that one. + +B seems easy to do too; however, reusing the last DHCP lease could still be +usefull, it might well be only a dhcp failure; we should try with the current +lease if possible. + +E is a bit of an extra (it's not really routing, but a DNS that's down (does +not answer) could well be eliminated (not sure if this should be done +separately or not)) OTOH, failure of the recursive DNS of the ISP seems to be +somewhat frequent in my experience. + +C+D are tricky: D is even a bit of a grey area; my ISP frequently has a few +routes broken. icmp can definately not be relied on in all cases. and even if +you ping your gateway, you don't know if it goes any further. + +This could be circumvented by putting known servers that actually echo icmp in +a list and ping those. but for that matter, it doesn't have to be icmp; we +could easily have a list of public services that can be connected to. but is +this really what we want? + +We could even just monitor how much packets are unreplied to per interface and +choose that. + +Or we could try to have each retry of unreplied packet go through the next +default route. + +Or we could just not handle that (like it is now). + +remember that right now only A(+B) is used; and having balanced default routes +would probably mean that there is 50% packet loss, instead of 100% in most +cases. + + +also remember that if the metrics are the same for some reason, you will get +much stranger things when both are working perfectly. +</PRE> + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002630.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2619">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2619">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2619">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2619">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002620.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002620.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..7c18f39fa --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002620.html @@ -0,0 +1,89 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20network%20balancing%20by%20default&In-Reply-To=%3C201010250156.33830.p_christ%40hol.gr%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002652.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002632.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default</H1> + <B>P. Christeas</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20network%20balancing%20by%20default&In-Reply-To=%3C201010250156.33830.p_christ%40hol.gr%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default">p_christ at hol.gr + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 00:56:32 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002652.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002632.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2620">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2620">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2620">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2620">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>On Sunday 24 October 2010, Maarten Vanraes wrote: +><i> I would propose the following: +</I>><i> +</I>><i> A.) by default, add for every interface, a little advanced routing which +</I>><i> makes packets return from the same way they came. +</I>><i> This usually is only useful with incoming packets, but can still be useful +</I>><i> if laptops have for example 2 gateways because the wifi is still on and +</I>><i> the cable is too. That would mean that from both interfaces it'd be +</I>><i> possible to use ssh or vnc or whatever. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> B.) if we have multiple gateways (like in that case), have them use both +</I>><i> balancedly. ie: start a small daemon which checks which of the gateways is +</I>><i> up or down; and change the default gateway accordingly, or even both in +</I>><i> some kind of balanced mode. (with advanced routing.) +</I>><i> +</I>><i> This would have the benefit, if you have really clueless users with a +</I>><i> laptop; that everything will still work well. and you're still able to +</I>><i> take over his laptop. +</I>><i> +</I> +Will that do ? : +<A HREF="http://git.hellug.gr/?p=xrg/ip-multipath;a=summary">http://git.hellug.gr/?p=xrg/ip-multipath;a=summary</A> + +(note to myself: I have to build a man^Hgeia rpm..) + + +-- +Say NO to spam and viruses. Stop using Microsoft Windows! +</PRE> + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002652.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002632.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2620">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2620">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2620">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2620">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002621.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002621.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..6069cfd45 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002621.html @@ -0,0 +1,108 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Suggestions + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C4CC4CD07.6030905%40WayneSallee.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002650.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002625.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions</H1> + <B>Wayne Sallee</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C4CC4CD07.6030905%40WayneSallee.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions">Wayne at WayneSallee.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 02:19:19 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002650.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002625.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2621">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2621">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2621">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2621">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Michael Scherer wrote on 10/23/2010 08:52 PM: +><i> Le dimanche 24 octobre 2010 à 02:09 +0200, Tux99 a écrit : +</I>><i> +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Come on... the effort of adding a decent description is minimal for a +</I>>><i> packager, the effort for a normal user of making a patch is much +</I>>><i> higher, this is not a very friendly answer towards the users... +</I>>><i> +</I>><i> I think I demonstrated in the past that constant friendliness toward +</I>><i> users is not one of my distinctive characteristics. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> The patch arguent is invalid, because people can also send mail, like +</I>><i> "here is a better description of package $FOO because I didn't +</I>><i> understood the current one and I wanted to help". +</I>><i> +</I>><i> So while sending a email and finding the packager email can be hard for +</I>><i> some people, I doubt that sending a email is hard for everybody. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> If writing a decent description is easy and almost effortless, and if +</I>><i> sending a email is easy, then what is difficult into doing both ? +</I>I agree that it is only logical to contribute by e-mailing the packager +about an improvement need in the package, but some packagers don't want +you e-mailing them about their package. + +As a community distro, we want to try to make it comfortable and easy +for everyone to get involved. + +Knowing that many packagers are not going to want you e-mailing them +about their package, reduces the number of people that will take the +time to e-mail them with such contribution. Of course what makes it +easier for one, makes it harder for another, so there needs to be +balance there. Sometimes our expectations are expecting too much from +the other who is working a lot of thankless hours to keep the distro going. + +It's all about balance and efficiency, and making it easy for people to +start contributing, and realizing that some jobs are more time consuming +than we might think. + +Developing systems and protocols help keep things running efficient, and +moving forward. + +Wayne Sallee +<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">Wayne at WayneSallee.com</A> +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002650.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002625.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2621">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2621">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2621">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2621">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002622.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002622.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..58d5a31dd --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002622.html @@ -0,0 +1,91 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Suggestions + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3Calpine.LMD.2.00.1010242040440.22237%40astro.scholar.athome%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002636.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002623.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions</H1> + <B>Dale Huckeby</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3Calpine.LMD.2.00.1010242040440.22237%40astro.scholar.athome%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions">spock at evansville.net + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 03:46:29 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002636.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002623.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2622">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2622">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2622">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2622">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>On Sun, 24 Oct 2010, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: + +><i> While at Mandriva most users felt more like customers of a commercial +</I>><i> company than as parts of a community, with Mageia it's totally +</I>><i> different. +</I>><i> While with Mandriva the users always regarded the distribution as a +</I>><i> product of the company, being served to them (no matter whether there +</I>><i> were only employees or more contributors than employees). With Mageia +</I>><i> it is now _their_ product which _they_ serve to themselves and others. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> I think this is the core difference and we have to prove that this +</I>><i> impression is right. +</I> +I think it is right. Mandriva the company and Mageia the community feel +different to me in exactly the way you've described. + +Dale Huckeby +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002636.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002623.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2622">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2622">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2622">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2622">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002623.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002623.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..34bcd1dfb --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002623.html @@ -0,0 +1,105 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Suggestions + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C1287974882.22344.43.camel%40desktop.barefootcomputing.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002622.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002624.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions</H1> + <B>Liam R E Quin</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C1287974882.22344.43.camel%40desktop.barefootcomputing.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions">liam at holoweb.net + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 04:48:02 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002622.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002624.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2623">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2623">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2623">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2623">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>On Sun, 2010-10-24 at 20:46 -0500, Dale Huckeby wrote: + +><i> > While at Mandriva most users felt more like customers of a commercial +</I>><i> > company than as parts of a community, with Mageia it's totally +</I>><i> > different. +</I> +(hmm, the attributions got lost somewhere, sorry) + +The Fedora Project became part of Red Hat in no small part as a +reaction to the way Mandrake (at the time) was making a Linux +distribution with an active developer community, and with active +contributors outside the company, something Red Hat saw was important. + +I think Mandriva continued to do this, if not perfectly, at least +better than some others. + +So there's a spectrum, with e.g. Sun and Solaris at one end (company +in complete control) to Debian at the other, with lots of room in +between. + +The important thing is to attract both developers _and_ people new to +Linux, to listen to their needs, and to keep them as users and as +part of the community. + +Liam + +-- +Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, <A HREF="http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/">http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/</A> +Pictures from old books: <A HREF="http://fromoldbooks.org/">http://fromoldbooks.org/</A> +Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org + +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002622.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002624.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2623">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2623">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2623">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2623">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002624.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002624.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..ffed76539 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002624.html @@ -0,0 +1,102 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Suggestions + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3Cia2usn%24pc8%242%40dough.gmane.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002623.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002634.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions</H1> + <B>Marc Paré</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3Cia2usn%24pc8%242%40dough.gmane.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions">marc at marcpare.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 05:51:51 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002623.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002634.html">[Mageia-discuss] [Mageia-announce] One month later: Mageia’s home is almost habitable! +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2624">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2624">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2624">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2624">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Le 2010-10-24 12:17, Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : +><i> It's not only the packagers. Was it not for the personal contacts I +</I>><i> had at Mandriva and in the community I would not have continued any +</I>><i> contribution after Mandriva terminated my contract. +</I>><i> But in general the difference between Mandriva and Mageia is really +</I>><i> the difference between company and community. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> While at Mandriva most users felt more like customers of a commercial +</I>><i> company than as parts of a community, with Mageia it's totally +</I>><i> different. +</I>><i> While with Mandriva the users always regarded the distribution as a +</I>><i> product of the company, being served to them (no matter whether there +</I>><i> were only employees or more contributors than employees). With Mageia +</I>><i> it is now _their_ product which _they_ serve to themselves and others. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> I think this is the core difference and we have to prove that this +</I>><i> impression is right. +</I>><i> +</I> +Nicely said Wobo. That is exactly how we should all feel. Regardless of +difference of opinions, we should all have a feeling of ownership in +Mageia. It is our distro and like you said, new devs/users should feel +the same way, that Mageia now belongs to them. + +Nice! + +Marc + +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002623.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002634.html">[Mageia-discuss] [Mageia-announce] One month later: Mageia’s home is almost habitable! +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2624">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2624">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2624">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2624">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002625.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002625.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..7754b3830 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002625.html @@ -0,0 +1,128 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Suggestions + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3Cia2vau%24sm3%241%40dough.gmane.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002621.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002626.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions</H1> + <B>Marc Paré</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3Cia2vau%24sm3%241%40dough.gmane.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions">marc at marcpare.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 05:59:25 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002621.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002626.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2625">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2625">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2625">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2625">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Le 2010-10-24 20:19, Wayne Sallee a écrit : +><i> Michael Scherer wrote on 10/23/2010 08:52 PM: +</I>>><i> Le dimanche 24 octobre 2010 à 02:09 +0200, Tux99 a écrit : +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> Come on... the effort of adding a decent description is minimal for a +</I>>>><i> packager, the effort for a normal user of making a patch is much +</I>>>><i> higher, this is not a very friendly answer towards the users... +</I>>><i> I think I demonstrated in the past that constant friendliness toward +</I>>><i> users is not one of my distinctive characteristics. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> The patch arguent is invalid, because people can also send mail, like +</I>>><i> "here is a better description of package $FOO because I didn't +</I>>><i> understood the current one and I wanted to help". +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> So while sending a email and finding the packager email can be hard for +</I>>><i> some people, I doubt that sending a email is hard for everybody. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> If writing a decent description is easy and almost effortless, and if +</I>>><i> sending a email is easy, then what is difficult into doing both ? +</I>><i> I agree that it is only logical to contribute by e-mailing the packager +</I>><i> about an improvement need in the package, but some packagers don't want +</I>><i> you e-mailing them about their package. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> As a community distro, we want to try to make it comfortable and easy +</I>><i> for everyone to get involved. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Knowing that many packagers are not going to want you e-mailing them +</I>><i> about their package, reduces the number of people that will take the +</I>><i> time to e-mail them with such contribution. Of course what makes it +</I>><i> easier for one, makes it harder for another, so there needs to be +</I>><i> balance there. Sometimes our expectations are expecting too much from +</I>><i> the other who is working a lot of thankless hours to keep the distro going. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> It's all about balance and efficiency, and making it easy for people to +</I>><i> start contributing, and realizing that some jobs are more time consuming +</I>><i> than we might think. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Developing systems and protocols help keep things running efficient, and +</I>><i> moving forward. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Wayne Sallee +</I>><i> <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">Wayne at WayneSallee.com</A> +</I>><i> +</I> +All of this talk about descriptions make it sound like there should be +more of a formalized process whereby: + +* the packager gets the package ready + +*when the package is ready (in Cauldron) a message is sent out to a team +of "package description users" who make arrangements for the updated +description and translations to be included with the package + +* when the updated description and package are ready they are then +processed as per usual + +I think that it is pretty clear that packagers don't really want to deal +with updating description, but the users would like to have updated +descriptions. So, what if there was a group of users in charge of +updating the package descriptions/translations where needed? Would this +work? + +Marc + +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002621.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002626.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2625">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2625">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2625">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2625">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002626.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002626.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..7495f1a9d --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002626.html @@ -0,0 +1,105 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Suggestions + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3Cop.vk35zpq4ct0cxl%40kira-notebook%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002625.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002627.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions</H1> + <B>Kira</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3Cop.vk35zpq4ct0cxl%40kira-notebook%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions">elegant.pegasus at gmail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 06:12:51 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002625.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002627.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2626">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2626">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2626">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2626">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>在 Mon, 25 Oct 2010 11:59:25 +0800, Marc Paré <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">marc at marcpare.com</A>>寫道: +><i> I think that it is pretty clear that packagers don't really want to deal +</I>><i> with updating description, but the users would like to have updated +</I>><i> descriptions. So, what if there was a group of users in charge of +</I>><i> updating the package descriptions/translations where needed? Would this +</I>><i> work? +</I>The problem is that currently if we want to translate the description, then + +we have to modify the SPEC of the RPM, which can only be done with +packager. + +Like the previous messages, we have 2 methods to choose: + +1 .po files for 1 package + + or + +1 .po files for multiple packages + +The first one would cause many .po files to maintain, while the other + +cause the maintainence hard( too complicate). +==== +I think maybe a more aggresive way is better: + +Make the detailed description available only for programs, not packages. + +Currently the RPMDRAKE is packages based, which is hard for newbies to find + +programs they need and the amount of the description need to maintain also +scares + +everyone off. + + The "Programs with GUI" option is the first step, but I think we should +step further, + +let people install programs, not packages. Therefore, we can ease both the +difficulty + +of maintain descriptions and installation harsh. +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002625.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002627.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2626">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2626">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2626">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2626">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002627.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002627.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..2e181208a --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002627.html @@ -0,0 +1,133 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Suggestions + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3Cia316p%2426i%241%40dough.gmane.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002626.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002645.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions</H1> + <B>Marc Paré</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3Cia316p%2426i%241%40dough.gmane.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions">marc at marcpare.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 06:31:21 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002626.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002645.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2627">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2627">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2627">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2627">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Le 2010-10-25 00:12, Kira a écrit : +><i> 在 Mon, 25 Oct 2010 11:59:25 +0800, Marc Paré <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">marc at marcpare.com</A>>寫道: +</I>>><i> I think that it is pretty clear that packagers don't really want to +</I>>><i> deal with updating description, but the users would like to have +</I>>><i> updated descriptions. So, what if there was a group of users in charge +</I>>><i> of updating the package descriptions/translations where needed? Would +</I>>><i> this work? +</I>><i> The problem is that currently if we want to translate the description, then +</I>><i> +</I>><i> we have to modify the SPEC of the RPM, which can only be done with +</I>><i> packager. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Like the previous messages, we have 2 methods to choose: +</I>><i> +</I>><i> 1 .po files for 1 package +</I>><i> +</I>><i> or +</I>><i> +</I>><i> 1 .po files for multiple packages +</I>><i> +</I>><i> The first one would cause many .po files to maintain, while the other +</I>><i> +</I>><i> cause the maintainence hard( too complicate). +</I>><i> ==== +</I>><i> I think maybe a more aggresive way is better: +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Make the detailed description available only for programs, not packages. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Currently the RPMDRAKE is packages based, which is hard for newbies to find +</I>><i> +</I>><i> programs they need and the amount of the description need to maintain +</I>><i> also scares +</I>><i> +</I>><i> everyone off. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> The "Programs with GUI" option is the first step, but I think we should +</I>><i> step further, +</I>><i> +</I>><i> let people install programs, not packages. Therefore, we can ease both +</I>><i> the difficulty +</I>><i> +</I>><i> of maintain descriptions and installation harsh. +</I>><i> +</I> +Ah! I guess my choice of words. I am still finding my way around the +jargon. I would have meant all of this for software. Yes. This would all +make sense. + +I agree with you. And as stated earlier, often the description has been +updated on the programme's website and there is little fiddling around +to include it. + +I also believe that we should try to help the devs as much as possible +and make their work as much as "developer" by nature as possible. We can +take care of the more mundane tasks for them. Let's let them code to +their heart's delight and we will just gain more from their hard and +generous work. Just as they will with us. + +BTW, in my opinion, the default GUI setting in the MCC was not a right +choice. It excluded too many pieces of software for users. I usually +recommended people to select the "All" setting, and from there to search +for the ideal programme. There are just not enough GUI packages in the +repos to make it fun in that particular sections. Everything should be +available to the user. + +Marc + +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002626.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002645.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2627">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2627">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2627">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2627">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002628.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002628.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..54d3d62ba --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002628.html @@ -0,0 +1,126 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Suggestions + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTikoW1ZvJ26Gq8bBWzEjKzvpcZ9D_Ouy33bcZFh5%40mail.gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002633.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002629.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions</H1> + <B>Ahmad Samir</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTikoW1ZvJ26Gq8bBWzEjKzvpcZ9D_Ouy33bcZFh5%40mail.gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions">ahmadsamir3891 at gmail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 07:42:49 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002633.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002629.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2628">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2628">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2628">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2628">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>On 25 October 2010 02:19, Wayne Sallee <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">Wayne at waynesallee.com</A>> wrote: +><i> Michael Scherer wrote on 10/23/2010 08:52 PM: +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Le dimanche 24 octobre 2010 à  02:09 +0200, Tux99 a écrit : +</I>>><i> +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> Come on... the effort of adding a decent description is minimal for a +</I>>>><i> packager, the effort for a normal user of making a patch is much +</I>>>><i> higher, this is not a very friendly answer towards the users... +</I>>>><i> +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> I think I demonstrated in the past that constant friendliness toward +</I>>><i> users is not one of my distinctive characteristics. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> The patch arguent is invalid, because people can also send mail, like +</I>>><i> "here is a better description of package $FOO because I didn't +</I>>><i> understood the current one and I wanted to help". +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> So while sending a email and finding the packager email can be hard for +</I>>><i> some people, I doubt that sending a email is hard for everybody. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> If writing a decent description is easy and almost effortless, and if +</I>>><i> sending a email is easy, then what is difficult into doing both ? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> I agree that it is only logical to contribute by e-mailing the packager +</I>><i> about an improvement need in the package, but some packagers don't want you +</I>><i> e-mailing them about their package. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> As a community distro, we want to try to make it comfortable and easy for +</I>><i> everyone to get involved. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Knowing that many packagers are not going to want you e-mailing them about +</I>><i> their package, reduces the number of people that will take the time to +</I>><i> e-mail them with such contribution. Of course what makes it easier for one, +</I>><i> makes it harder for another, so there needs to be balance there. Sometimes +</I>><i> our expectations are expecting too much from the other who is working a lot +</I>><i> of thankless hours to keep the distro going. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> It's all about balance and efficiency, and making it easy for people to +</I>><i> start contributing, and realizing that some jobs are more time consuming +</I>><i> than we might think. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Developing systems and protocols help keep things running efficient, and +</I>><i> moving forward. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Wayne Sallee +</I>><i> <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">Wayne at WayneSallee.com</A> +</I>><i> +</I> +Yes, using bugzilla is usually better; an advantage of filing a bug +report over sending a personal email is that the bug gets more +exposure and any packager who has a bit of free time and can fix it +(especially if you're talking about just changing the package +description) will do so; i.e. the whole process becomes faster by +distributing the workload (especially not-too-invasive package +changes). + +-- +Ahmad Samir +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002633.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002629.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2628">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2628">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2628">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2628">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002629.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002629.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..9d007879e --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002629.html @@ -0,0 +1,93 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Suggestions + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C20101025061648.GA10424%40maude.comedia.it%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002628.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002635.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions</H1> + <B>Luca Berra</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C20101025061648.GA10424%40maude.comedia.it%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions">bluca at vodka.it + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 08:16:48 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002628.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002635.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2629">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2629">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2629">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2629">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 08:19:19PM -0400, Wayne Sallee wrote: +><i> I agree that it is only logical to contribute by e-mailing the packager +</I>><i> about an improvement need in the package, but some packagers don't want you +</I>><i> e-mailing them about their package. +</I>this sounds harsh, and it is untrue, +what we, the packagers, are trying to explain, is: +- contribution in maintaining packages is always appreciated, reports + about bugs, missing features or whishes. +- unfortunately, we do not work on the distro for a living. We happen to + have a job to do, or school and exams to take. +- we are litteraly swarmed by mail (we are usually subscribed to the + developemente mailing lists of the packages we maintain, plus mageia + and mandriva ml, plus we have a life on our own) + +So while we do not actively refuse input received via email, we +recognize our fallacy and admit that we are prone to forget about it in +the flood of email. +The reason why we prefer a bugzilla ticket is not due to sadism versus +the end user, it is because we know it won't get lost. +Sometimes when i get an email with a suggestion i even open a bugzilla +ticket and assign it to myself. + +L. + +-- +Luca Berra -- <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">bluca at vodka.it</A> +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002628.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002635.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2629">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2629">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2629">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2629">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002630.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002630.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..bd1fba0e3 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002630.html @@ -0,0 +1,158 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20network%20balancing%20by%20default&In-Reply-To=%3C20101025064101.GB10424%40maude.comedia.it%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002619.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002631.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default</H1> + <B>Luca Berra</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20network%20balancing%20by%20default&In-Reply-To=%3C20101025064101.GB10424%40maude.comedia.it%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default">bluca at vodka.it + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 08:41:01 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002619.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002631.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2630">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2630">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2630">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2630">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE> +On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 12:00:46AM +0200, Maarten Vanraes wrote: +><i>Op zondag 24 oktober 2010 22:39:29 schreef Luca Berra: +</I>>><i> On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 11:43:28AM +0200, Maarten Vanraes wrote: +</I>>><i> >I would propose the following: +</I>><i> +</I>><i>First off, the timing of this proposal is probably too soon, i just wanted to +</I>><i>get it out there, in case i forgot later. +</I> +open an enhancement on initscripts :P + +>><i> >A.) by default, add for every interface, a little advanced routing which +</I>>><i> >makes packets return from the same way they came. +</I>>><i> >This usually is only useful with incoming packets, but can still be useful +</I>>><i> >if laptops have for example 2 gateways because the wifi is still on and +</I>>><i> >the cable is too. That would mean that from both interfaces it'd be +</I>>><i> >possible to use ssh or vnc or whatever. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> this is possible with incoming packets, but, how do you select the +</I>>><i> source of a new one? +</I>><i> +</I>><i>this step is only for the replies of incoming packets and never has any effect +</I>><i>on new outgoing packets; this step doesn't change anything for new outgoing +</I>><i>packets. and this can even be used on interfaces that aren't used as default +</I>><i>gateway. +</I>i did not understood the second and third sentence in A.), then. + +anyways i believe A is useful and can be implemented without any issue + +><i>possible problems: +</I>><i>A) interface down +</I>><i>B) DHCP expired +</I>><i>C) gateway down +</I>><i>D) further routing down +</I>><i>E) DNS down +</I>><i> +</I>><i>A is trivial, so we'll just skip that one. +</I>><i> +</I>><i>B seems easy to do too; however, reusing the last DHCP lease could still be +</I>><i>usefull, it might well be only a dhcp failure; we should try with the current +</I>><i>lease if possible. +</I>if it is expired you should not. doing this will result in duplicate +ips. + +><i>E is a bit of an extra (it's not really routing, but a DNS that's down (does +</I>><i>not answer) could well be eliminated (not sure if this should be done +</I>><i>separately or not)) OTOH, failure of the recursive DNS of the ISP seems to be +</I>><i>somewhat frequent in my experience. +</I>so a connectivity issue will leave users without dns? + +><i>C+D are tricky: D is even a bit of a grey area; my ISP frequently has a few +</I>><i>routes broken. icmp can definately not be relied on in all cases. and even if +</I>><i>you ping your gateway, you don't know if it goes any further. +</I>><i> +</I>><i>This could be circumvented by putting known servers that actually echo icmp in +</I>><i>a list and ping those. but for that matter, it doesn't have to be icmp; we +</I>><i>could easily have a list of public services that can be connected to. but is +</I>><i>this really what we want? +</I>><i> +</I>><i>We could even just monitor how much packets are unreplied to per interface and +</I>><i>choose that. +</I>><i> +</I>><i>Or we could try to have each retry of unreplied packet go through the next +</I>><i>default route. +</I>><i> +</I>><i>Or we could just not handle that (like it is now). +</I> ++1 +you are considering the only scenario of a home user. doing some things +you propose above would prevent using mageia in any medium sized +network. (i.e. i could not use my mageia laptop at work) + +><i>remember that right now only A(+B) is used; and having balanced default routes +</I>><i>would probably mean that there is 50% packet loss, instead of 100% in most +</I>><i>cases. +</I> +which may be worse. +if nothing works the user will try switching to a different connection +if stuff do not work at random the user will not know what to do. + +btw, the assumption about 50% is flawed, i don't know if it is an +oversimplification or a failure to understand how load balancing over +multiple network links work in practice. +it is not round-robin, it is route-based (on ip hash) +the result of a failure upstream will result in the user being able to, +say, watch some videos on youtube, but not update her fb profile, or +worse. + +><i>also remember that if the metrics are the same for some reason, you will get +</I>><i>much stranger things when both are working perfectly. +</I> +L. + +btw, there is no need to cc me on discussions, in fact it breaks my +filters. + +-- +Luca Berra -- <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">bluca at vodka.it</A> + + + + +</PRE> + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002619.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002631.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2630">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2630">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2630">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2630">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002631.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002631.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..bc57897ad --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002631.html @@ -0,0 +1,181 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20network%20balancing%20by%20default&In-Reply-To=%3C201010250857.38844.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002630.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002651.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default</H1> + <B>Maarten Vanraes</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20network%20balancing%20by%20default&In-Reply-To=%3C201010250857.38844.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 08:57:38 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002630.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002651.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2631">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2631">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2631">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2631">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Op maandag 25 oktober 2010 08:41:01 schreef Luca Berra: +><i> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 12:00:46AM +0200, Maarten Vanraes wrote: +</I>><i> >Op zondag 24 oktober 2010 22:39:29 schreef Luca Berra: +</I>><i> >> On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 11:43:28AM +0200, Maarten Vanraes wrote: +</I>><i> >> >I would propose the following: +</I>><i> >First off, the timing of this proposal is probably too soon, i just wanted +</I>><i> >to get it out there, in case i forgot later. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> open an enhancement on initscripts :P +</I> +imho, this in itself is wrong; i want network-scripts to be split off from +initscripts; especially if we're going to use systemd later on. + +><i> >> >A.) by default, add for every interface, a little advanced routing +</I>><i> >> >which makes packets return from the same way they came. +</I>><i> >> >This usually is only useful with incoming packets, but can still be +</I>><i> >> >useful if laptops have for example 2 gateways because the wifi is +</I>><i> >> >still on and the cable is too. That would mean that from both +</I>><i> >> >interfaces it'd be possible to use ssh or vnc or whatever. +</I>><i> >> +</I>><i> >> this is possible with incoming packets, but, how do you select the +</I>><i> >> source of a new one? +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> >this step is only for the replies of incoming packets and never has any +</I>><i> >effect on new outgoing packets; this step doesn't change anything for new +</I>><i> >outgoing packets. and this can even be used on interfaces that aren't +</I>><i> >used as default gateway. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> i did not understood the second and third sentence in A.), then. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> anyways i believe A is useful and can be implemented without any issue +</I> + +it will not conflict with current situation. + + +><i> >possible problems: +</I>><i> >A) interface down +</I>><i> >B) DHCP expired +</I>><i> >C) gateway down +</I>><i> >D) further routing down +</I>><i> >E) DNS down +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> >A is trivial, so we'll just skip that one. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> >B seems easy to do too; however, reusing the last DHCP lease could still +</I>><i> >be usefull, it might well be only a dhcp failure; we should try with the +</I>><i> >current lease if possible. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> if it is expired you should not. doing this will result in duplicate +</I>><i> ips. +</I> +ok. + +><i> >E is a bit of an extra (it's not really routing, but a DNS that's down +</I>><i> >(does not answer) could well be eliminated (not sure if this should be +</I>><i> >done separately or not)) OTOH, failure of the recursive DNS of the ISP +</I>><i> >seems to be somewhat frequent in my experience. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> so a connectivity issue will leave users without dns? +</I> + +more the other way around; in the event of dns failure; the dns of the other +gateway could be used. if it would be a routing issue to the DNS (and others), +then other rules could be triggered (C+D) + + +><i> >C+D are tricky: D is even a bit of a grey area; my ISP frequently has a +</I>><i> >few routes broken. icmp can definately not be relied on in all cases. and +</I>><i> >even if you ping your gateway, you don't know if it goes any further. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> >This could be circumvented by putting known servers that actually echo +</I>><i> >icmp in a list and ping those. but for that matter, it doesn't have to be +</I>><i> >icmp; we could easily have a list of public services that can be +</I>><i> >connected to. but is this really what we want? +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> >We could even just monitor how much packets are unreplied to per interface +</I>><i> >and choose that. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> >Or we could try to have each retry of unreplied packet go through the next +</I>><i> >default route. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> >Or we could just not handle that (like it is now). +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +1 +</I>><i> you are considering the only scenario of a home user. doing some things +</I>><i> you propose above would prevent using mageia in any medium sized +</I>><i> network. (i.e. i could not use my mageia laptop at work) +</I> +I don't see what you mean by this. i list 4 options; knowing full well that +some of those options are not usefull by default. also, this is only required +if more than one default gateway is active; which is a small percentage in +itself. (my personal favourite is having it sent to the other default gateway +after failure; or seeing which has more unreplied packets; and then check some +public services) + +><i> >remember that right now only A(+B) is used; and having balanced default +</I>><i> >routes would probably mean that there is 50% packet loss, instead of 100% +</I>><i> >in most cases. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> which may be worse. +</I>><i> if nothing works the user will try switching to a different connection +</I>><i> if stuff do not work at random the user will not know what to do. +</I> +it could be worse, depending on the type of person. + +><i> btw, the assumption about 50% is flawed, i don't know if it is an +</I>><i> oversimplification or a failure to understand how load balancing over +</I>><i> multiple network links work in practice. +</I>><i> it is not round-robin, it is route-based (on ip hash) +</I>><i> the result of a failure upstream will result in the user being able to, +</I>><i> say, watch some videos on youtube, but not update her fb profile, or +</I>><i> worse. +</I> +i meant on average in total, depending on what kind of balancing is used. + +><i> >also remember that if the metrics are the same for some reason, you will +</I>><i> >get much stranger things when both are working perfectly. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> L. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> btw, there is no need to cc me on discussions, in fact it breaks my +</I>><i> filters. +</I> +sorry, +</PRE> + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002630.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002651.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2631">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2631">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2631">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2631">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002632.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002632.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..9242f999e --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002632.html @@ -0,0 +1,84 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20network%20balancing%20by%20default&In-Reply-To=%3C201010250858.21339.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002620.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002644.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default</H1> + <B>Maarten Vanraes</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20network%20balancing%20by%20default&In-Reply-To=%3C201010250858.21339.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 08:58:21 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002620.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002644.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2632">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2632">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2632">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2632">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Op maandag 25 oktober 2010 00:56:32 schreef P. Christeas: +><i> On Sunday 24 October 2010, Maarten Vanraes wrote: +</I>><i> > I would propose the following: +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > A.) by default, add for every interface, a little advanced routing which +</I>><i> > makes packets return from the same way they came. +</I>><i> > This usually is only useful with incoming packets, but can still be +</I>><i> > useful if laptops have for example 2 gateways because the wifi is still +</I>><i> > on and the cable is too. That would mean that from both interfaces it'd +</I>><i> > be possible to use ssh or vnc or whatever. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > B.) if we have multiple gateways (like in that case), have them use both +</I>><i> > balancedly. ie: start a small daemon which checks which of the gateways +</I>><i> > is up or down; and change the default gateway accordingly, or even both +</I>><i> > in some kind of balanced mode. (with advanced routing.) +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > This would have the benefit, if you have really clueless users with a +</I>><i> > laptop; that everything will still work well. and you're still able to +</I>><i> > take over his laptop. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Will that do ? : +</I>><i> <A HREF="http://git.hellug.gr/?p=xrg/ip-multipath;a=summary">http://git.hellug.gr/?p=xrg/ip-multipath;a=summary</A> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> (note to myself: I have to build a man^Hgeia rpm..) +</I> +possibly, i'll take a look at it later on. +</PRE> + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002620.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002644.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2632">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2632">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2632">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2632">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002633.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002633.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..00044e681 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002633.html @@ -0,0 +1,76 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Suggestions + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C4CC52C23.4000806%40unige.ch%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002647.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002628.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions</H1> + <B>Juergen Harms</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C4CC52C23.4000806%40unige.ch%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions">Juergen.Harms at unige.ch + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 09:05:07 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002647.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002628.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2633">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2633">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2633">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2633">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>A couple of loose ideas that come when following the discussion: + +1. Have packages pass "description QA" reading, done by non-technical +users (if implemented, easy with packages that are new or underwent a +major new release, how also catch packages that just "are around")? + +2. As an alternative to direct mail to developpers, create some kind of +"fast-track" mailbox - rules to be defined - with a triage team to make +the link to the developpers (maybe not even with developpers, but with +"writers")? - would also allow to keep track of what is going on, and +serve as a "filter". + +3. I suggest to separate the question of translation and of the quality +of descriptions - they have different priorities and implications. +</PRE> + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002647.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002628.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2633">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2633">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2633">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2633">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002634.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002634.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..73a001087 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002634.html @@ -0,0 +1,85 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] [Mageia-announce] One month later: Mageia’s home is almost habitable! + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%0A%09%3D%3Fwindows-1252%3Fq%3F%3D5BMageia-announce%3D5D_One_month%3F%3D%0A%09%3D%3Fwindows-1252%3Fq%3F_later%3D3A_Mageia%3D92s_home_is_almost_habitable%21%3F%3D&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTi%3D1XHZZA%3D_fkdS60mewMu98gOmYQ9COFx3BH-Cu%40mail.gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002624.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002637.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] [Mageia-announce] One month later: Mageia’s home is almost habitable!</H1> + <B>Romain d'Alverny</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%0A%09%3D%3Fwindows-1252%3Fq%3F%3D5BMageia-announce%3D5D_One_month%3F%3D%0A%09%3D%3Fwindows-1252%3Fq%3F_later%3D3A_Mageia%3D92s_home_is_almost_habitable%21%3F%3D&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTi%3D1XHZZA%3D_fkdS60mewMu98gOmYQ9COFx3BH-Cu%40mail.gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] [Mageia-announce] One month later: Mageia’s home is almost habitable!">rdalverny at gmail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 11:07:27 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002624.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002637.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2634">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2634">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2634">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2634">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 01:24, Wolfgang Bornath <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">molch.b at googlemail.com</A>> wrote: +><i> 2010/10/23 Anne nicolas <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">ennael1 at gmail.com</A>>: +</I>>><i> Hi there +</I>>><i> Here are weekly news from Mageia on association but also build system: +</I>>><i> <A HREF="http://blog.mageia.org/?p=106">http://blog.mageia.org/?p=106</A> +</I>>><i> Enjoy! +</I>><i> +</I>><i> German translation online. +</I> +Thanks! + +><i> Question: +</I>><i> I believe the CoC is still under discussion/review (see ML)? +</I> +We thought it to be stable enough from the initial version (not so +much comments, but a simplification) to publish it on the website. But +of course, it is not set in stone, so improvements are always welcome. + + +Romain +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002624.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002637.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2634">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2634">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2634">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2634">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002635.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002635.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..ba50efeb8 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002635.html @@ -0,0 +1,96 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Suggestions + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C4CC57DAA.9050604%40WayneSallee.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002629.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002636.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions</H1> + <B>Wayne Sallee</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C4CC57DAA.9050604%40WayneSallee.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions">Wayne at WayneSallee.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 14:52:58 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002629.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002636.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2635">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2635">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2635">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2635">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Luca Berra wrote on 10/25/2010 02:16 AM: +><i> +</I>><i> The reason why we prefer a bugzilla ticket is not due to sadism versus +</I>><i> the end user, it is because we know it won't get lost. +</I>><i> Sometimes when i get an email with a suggestion i even open a bugzilla +</I>><i> ticket and assign it to myself. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> L. +</I>><i> +</I> +On a similar note, I think that we should have icons in Mageia that take +users directly to file a bug report, since newbees don't know where to +go to file a bug report, having such icons for them will help get more +people involved. + +Everything that we can do to guide people in the right direction will +help improve community involvement. + +So the first step is guiding people where to go to file bug reports. In +that line of thought, packagers, when they are e-mailed, and respond +telling people to file a bug report, would be good to include a link to +bugzilla in the e-mail as standard practice. + +So the first step would be to guide people in filing bug reports, and +then the next step would be guiding people into participating in other +ways. So the easier we can make it for people to find themselves helping +out, the better Mageia community we will have. + +Instead of waiting for people to volunteer, we should guide them in the +direction they should go. + +Wayne Sallee +<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">Wayne at WayneSallee.com</A> +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002629.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002636.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2635">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2635">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2635">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2635">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002636.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002636.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..00c203e04 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002636.html @@ -0,0 +1,69 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Suggestions + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTikSThwMzZzTv6KrdwoNrQRKg-hJYbX3DUvEjvU2%40mail.gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002635.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002622.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions</H1> + <B>Wolfgang Bornath</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTikSThwMzZzTv6KrdwoNrQRKg-hJYbX3DUvEjvU2%40mail.gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions">molch.b at googlemail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 15:20:31 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002635.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002622.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2636">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2636">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2636">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2636">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>2010/10/25 Wayne Sallee <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">Wayne at waynesallee.com</A>>: +><i> +</I>><i> Instead of waiting for people to volunteer, we should guide them in the +</I>><i> direction they should go. +</I> +This is the main topic of this thread, isn't it? There are just +different ideas how to do that. :) +</PRE> + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002635.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002622.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2636">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2636">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2636">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2636">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002637.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002637.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..cd84385c0 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002637.html @@ -0,0 +1,120 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Suggestions + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C4CC59F05.9070407%40laposte.net%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002634.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002638.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions</H1> + <B>andre999</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C4CC59F05.9070407%40laposte.net%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions">andr55 at laposte.net + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 17:15:17 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002634.html">[Mageia-discuss] [Mageia-announce] One month later: Mageia’s home is almost habitable! +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002638.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2637">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2637">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2637">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2637">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Wayne Sallee a écrit : +><i> +</I>><i> Oliver Burger wrote on 10/23/2010 11:39 AM: +</I>>><i> Wayne Sallee<<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">Wayne at waynesallee.com</A>> schrieb am 2010-10-23 +</I>>>><i> I think that everyone with a decent computer, should install both +</I>>>><i> Gnome, +</I>>>><i> and KDE. +</I>>><i> Why? +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> I normally don't need more then one DE on my system. I do install +</I>>><i> applications +</I>>><i> from both DEs (kmail, korganizer,... from KDE, pidgin, gimp,... from +</I>>><i> GNOME) +</I>>><i> but why should I install more than that? +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Oliver +</I>>><i> +</I>><i> It gives a second desktop to fall back on, and guarantees all +</I>><i> dependencies for KDE or GNOME aps, provides a fall back method to +</I>><i> adjust setting such as font and such for desktop aps used in the other +</I>><i> desktop, and gives the newbe the ease of switching to the other +</I>><i> desktop until they decide which one they like. And installing both +</I>><i> desktops is an easy way to install all standard aps for both desktops, +</I>><i> and that new standard apps for the unused desktop is installed with +</I>><i> desktop updates, so that it's there if you need it. Just like I like +</I>><i> to have several internet browsers even though I rarely use the others. +</I>><i> If one is giving you trouble, you can try the other. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Wayne Sallee +</I>><i> <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">Wayne at WayneSallee.com</A> +</I> +It's not clear your definition of "decent" ... do you mean a computer +with almost unlimited disk space, multicore 64-bit processor ... ? + +And why not just install everything in all the repositories. +One never knows when one might need another application ... +and besides, it's so much fun playing with all sorts of different +applications, learning and configuring all sorts of different desktops ... + +However, most users want to do just that ... *use* their computer, to do +something. +They don't want tons of clutter on their disk to maintain. They don't +necessarily want to learn the particularities of more than one major +desktop. +Or to learn 47 different applications to do essentially the same thing. + +Personally, I use Gnome, and have adapted to its few shortcomings, in +preference to those of KDE. Unfortunately KDE insists on installing +many applications which, in addition to not working very well, clutter +my system, including the menu. +But others prefer KDE over Gnome, and some like yourself prefer both. +If a minimal install of KDE were available, maybe installing both KDE +and Gnome by default might make sense. +But it seems to me that a simpler environment would be advantageous for +newer users. + +- André +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002634.html">[Mageia-discuss] [Mageia-announce] One month later: Mageia’s home is almost habitable! +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002638.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2637">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2637">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2637">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2637">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002638.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002638.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..f15615fbf --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002638.html @@ -0,0 +1,98 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Suggestions + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C4CC5A440.30502%40laposte.net%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002637.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002639.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions</H1> + <B>andre999</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C4CC5A440.30502%40laposte.net%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions">andr55 at laposte.net + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 17:37:36 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002637.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002639.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2638">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2638">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2638">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2638">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : +><i> 2010/10/24 Michael Scherer<<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">misc at zarb.org</A>>: +</I>><i> +</I>>><i> Well, writing better description is a task that do not requires +</I>>><i> technical knowledge, and that any packagers could do, if people send a +</I>>><i> patch. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Since I never received anything for my own packages for this kind of +</I>>><i> problem, shall I assume that my packages are fine ? +</I>>><i> +</I>><i> A typical case of failed communication. It has been written many times +</I>><i> that package descriptions in the installer and also some in rpmdrake +</I>><i> are less than they should be. What does it tell me when I look at the +</I>><i> description and all I see is "an important package you should install +</I>><i> it" ? But what does it do? Brew coffee? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> IIRC there has been a bug report about it. Too tired now to search for +</I>><i> it, sorry. +</I>><i> +</I> +Exactly. I'm getting more and more the sense that there should be a +separate bugzilla section for documentation, which would include +packaging descriptions. +The reason for this is that the package description should (ideally) be +localised, as for other documentation. Which is often but not usually +the case. +And essentially I see packagers working with documenters to enhance the +utility of packages. So many times I have downloaded/installed a +package to find that it totally misses my expectations - which +reasonable documentation could have prevented. In other cases, I have +discovered a very useful package by some comment in a forum, despite it +being in the Mandriva repository (and up to date), but with a woefully +inadequate description. + +- André +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002637.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002639.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2638">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2638">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2638">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2638">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002639.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002639.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..2ffb19ae2 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002639.html @@ -0,0 +1,96 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Suggestions + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C1288021810.4401.13.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002638.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002641.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions</H1> + <B>Michael Scherer</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C1288021810.4401.13.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions">misc at zarb.org + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 17:50:10 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002638.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002641.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2639">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2639">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2639">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2639">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Le lundi 25 octobre 2010 à 11:37 -0400, andre999 a écrit : +><i> Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : +</I>><i> > 2010/10/24 Michael Scherer<<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">misc at zarb.org</A>>: +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> >> Well, writing better description is a task that do not requires +</I>><i> >> technical knowledge, and that any packagers could do, if people send a +</I>><i> >> patch. +</I>><i> >> +</I>><i> >> Since I never received anything for my own packages for this kind of +</I>><i> >> problem, shall I assume that my packages are fine ? +</I>><i> >> +</I>><i> > A typical case of failed communication. It has been written many times +</I>><i> > that package descriptions in the installer and also some in rpmdrake +</I>><i> > are less than they should be. What does it tell me when I look at the +</I>><i> > description and all I see is "an important package you should install +</I>><i> > it" ? But what does it do? Brew coffee? +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > IIRC there has been a bug report about it. Too tired now to search for +</I>><i> > it, sorry. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Exactly. I'm getting more and more the sense that there should be a +</I>><i> separate bugzilla section for documentation, which would include +</I>><i> packaging descriptions. +</I> +Ie, a separate section ? + +What would it achieve that the current bugzilla system would not ? + +-- +Michael Scherer + +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002638.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002641.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2639">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2639">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2639">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2639">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002640.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002640.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..f38a821b4 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002640.html @@ -0,0 +1,178 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Suggestions + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C4CC5AE4F.1050701%40laposte.net%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002654.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002643.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions</H1> + <B>andre999</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C4CC5AE4F.1050701%40laposte.net%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions">andr55 at laposte.net + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 18:20:31 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002654.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002643.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2640">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2640">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2640">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2640">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Michael Scherer a écrit : +><i> Le dimanche 24 octobre 2010 à 09:21 +0200, Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>>><i> 2. What can we do to improve the package description in the +</I>>><i> "Individual package selection during system installation? Most +</I>>><i> descriptions there only say "Important" or "Comfortable" or some other +</I>>><i> nonsense like that. I really wonder who on earth had that idea! +</I>>><i> We need descriptions of the package, what it does. The description +</I>>><i> should be available for translation, so that according to the set +</I>>><i> language the user sees the package description in his language. +</I>>><i> +</I>><i> Yup, but that's not trivial, from a technical point of view. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Rpm allow to have translation in spec file, but that's not .po, that's +</I>><i> more "let's translators edit the source code directly", which is +</I>><i> unintegrated with translators tools, do not take care of fuzzy string +</I>><i> and may break software build due to subtilities in specs ( like the +</I>><i> usage of % for macros, etc ). +</I>><i> +</I>><i> More ever, everything will appear in the packages indexes, which mean : +</I>><i> - more memory used for all installation +</I>><i> - bigger indexes to download +</I>><i> - longer time to load from disk, which mean longer rpmdrake startup +</I>><i> - less space on cd and or dvd. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> So we need to find a better way. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Better in two points : +</I>><i> - better way to distribute it +</I>><i> - better way to translate it +</I>><i> +</I>><i> The distribution part is IMHO the easiest now we have the control of the +</I>><i> main mirror. We can just split the hdlist in 2, one for the description, +</I>><i> for each languages, one for the metadata, and let urpmi/whatever combine +</I>><i> this into a regular hdlist and use this. We can even maybe find a way +</I>><i> that will not break smart and others. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> The translation part is more tricky, we tried in the past with the +</I>><i> CVS-po project, but it didn't work, maybe someone who as around that +</I>><i> time could tell us. Anne know for sure, Wolfgang is likely to know too. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Basically, the idea was to extract the summary and description from the +</I>><i> packages indexes, and then convert this as .po file. There is a small +</I>><i> problem however. If we use .po per package, then it will be hellish for +</I>><i> translators to open 10000 files ( imho, maybe I am wrong ). If we use +</I>><i> one .po for repository, then the files are huge and maybe consume too +</I>><i> much ressources ( even if nowadays, laptops are provided with more +</I>><i> memory than the server we use at PLF for everything). +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Maybe we can group rpm .po, like 1 file for 100 rpms description, but I +</I>><i> fear this will bring problem too. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Then we also have to write a software that goes from .po to hdlist, of +</I>><i> course, which may e non trivial ( as it requires both intimate knowledge +</I>><i> about rpm and gettext ). +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>>><i> 3. The same is needed in rpmdrake. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> In other words: +</I>>><i> We need a way to add descriptions to packages. These descriptions must +</I>>><i> be available for the installer in "Individual package selecteion" and +</I>>><i> there must be a way to have .po files for the translators. +</I>>><i> +</I>><i> Yup. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>>><i> Is there something which can be done without passing the ball to and +</I>>><i> fro like a tennis match? +</I>>><i> +</I>><i> On the translation side, it is work. On the improve description side, I +</I>><i> suggest to organize day dedicated to the task, like the bug days. See my +</I>><i> other mail on the thread about it. +</I>><i> +</I>There are some ideas fomenting here ... +What about an online tool, with the descriptions by package, where +anyone (with the appropriate account) can contribute, seeing the current +description, and suggest changes. The packager (or authorised person) +will confirm any changes, so this evolves dynamically. + +Translators access the confirmed description on line, and similarly make +changes for their language, with a similar confirmation process. +Any changes to the base description are automatically signalled for +translators. + +During the cauldron period, maybe the translations are not necessarily +included, but for release time (at least), the base description and +confirmed translations are automatically included in the package, by +whatever tool is necessary. + +1) By having the description changes and translations made online, they +are easier to implement in a timely manner. + +2) There should be a way of doing it offline and posting changes online +as well. + +3) I don't know what software would be appropriate, but LibreOffice is +thinking of using Pootle, which seems to be appropriate from their +discussions. +See : <A HREF="http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/pootle/index">http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/pootle/index</A> +and : <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pootle">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pootle</A> + +If we get something like this implemented, it will be a big improvement +over Mandriva, and probably most other distros. Which should in turn +lead to their improvement as well. + +my 2 cents :) +- André + +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002654.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002643.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2640">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2640">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2640">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2640">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002641.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002641.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..b57b93de1 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002641.html @@ -0,0 +1,92 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Suggestions + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTimyzzXycUe7ZiU9_AVwaQSzKCz4-09fFoO%3D3-jR%40mail.gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002639.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002642.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions</H1> + <B>Wolfgang Bornath</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTimyzzXycUe7ZiU9_AVwaQSzKCz4-09fFoO%3D3-jR%40mail.gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions">molch.b at googlemail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 18:24:05 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002639.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002642.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2641">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2641">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2641">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2641">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>2010/10/25 Michael Scherer <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">misc at zarb.org</A>>: +><i> Le lundi 25 octobre 2010 à 11:37 -0400, andre999 a écrit : +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Exactly.  I'm getting more and more the sense that there should be a +</I>>><i> separate bugzilla section for documentation, which would include +</I>>><i> packaging descriptions. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Ie, a separate section ? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> What would it achieve that the current bugzilla system would not ? +</I> +I don't think it would help. There is (was) the tag "Doc" (or similar) +in Bugzilla which already marked the bug as something related to +documentation. Somebody who is concerned and ignored that would also +ignore a separate section and vice versa. + I like a more general approach involving the users and packagers likewise: + - see a lack of or bad description in the "Individual package +selection and/or rpmdrake + - report it as a bug, giving the necessary explanation (in an ideal +world offer a good description yourself) + - triage team dedicates the bug to either the packager or the +developper who inserts the description in the installer. + +Anybody who complains about missing descriptions is pointed to this +way by others. So, as time goes by we can improve the status without +putting too much work on one specific desk all at once. + +-- +wobo +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002639.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002642.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2641">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2641">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2641">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2641">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002642.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002642.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..9cd0cbc20 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002642.html @@ -0,0 +1,94 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Suggestions + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C1288024675.4401.15.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002641.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002648.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions</H1> + <B>Michael Scherer</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C1288024675.4401.15.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions">misc at zarb.org + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 18:37:55 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002641.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002648.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2642">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2642">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2642">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2642">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Le lundi 25 octobre 2010 à 18:24 +0200, Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : +><i> 2010/10/25 Michael Scherer <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">misc at zarb.org</A>>: +</I>><i> > Le lundi 25 octobre 2010 à 11:37 -0400, andre999 a écrit : +</I>><i> >> +</I>><i> >> Exactly. I'm getting more and more the sense that there should be a +</I>><i> >> separate bugzilla section for documentation, which would include +</I>><i> >> packaging descriptions. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > Ie, a separate section ? +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > What would it achieve that the current bugzilla system would not ? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> I don't think it would help. There is (was) the tag "Doc" (or similar) +</I>><i> in Bugzilla which already marked the bug as something related to +</I>><i> documentation. Somebody who is concerned and ignored that would also +</I>><i> ignore a separate section and vice versa. +</I>><i> I like a more general approach involving the users and packagers likewise: +</I>><i> - see a lack of or bad description in the "Individual package +</I>><i> selection and/or rpmdrake +</I>><i> - report it as a bug, giving the necessary explanation (in an ideal +</I>><i> world offer a good description yourself) +</I>><i> - triage team dedicates the bug to either the packager or the +</I>><i> developper who inserts the description in the installer. +</I> +I would even add a tag on it, for junior job, or something like that. Ie +small changes that can be done by newer packagers, just to learn how to +change a package without requiring specific technical skills. + +-- +Michael Scherer + +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002641.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002648.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2642">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2642">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2642">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2642">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002643.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002643.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..d61dccb1e --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002643.html @@ -0,0 +1,116 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Suggestions + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C4CC5C3AF.1050806%40roadrunner.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002640.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002653.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions</H1> + <B>Frank Griffin</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C4CC5C3AF.1050806%40roadrunner.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions">ftg at roadrunner.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 19:51:43 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002640.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002653.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2643">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2643">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2643">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2643">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Michael Scherer wrote: +><i> +</I>><i> So we need to find a better way. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Better in two points : +</I>><i> - better way to distribute it +</I>><i> - better way to translate it +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>Maybe the problem is trying to use rpm as the management tool for +descriptions. + +Long, long, ago I had to write an order processing system for an IBM +5100, which supported 2 languages - APL and Basic - both of which were +interpreted, meaning the source code had to fit into memory, which was 32K. + +This made it virtually impossible to comment the code in any meaningful +way, since the comments took up memory needed for code. + +What I finally settled upon was to tag blocks of code with a 4-or-5 +character comment which was basically an index key into a typewritten +document which contained the program comments. The same thing might +work here. + +Change the rpm description to a database table partial key which +corresponds to the package. Then set up a database table keyed by that +partial key plus a language ID, and place the description in that +language there. Change tools which display package descriptions to use +the rpm value as a key into the database combined with the locale language. + +This shifts the space requirement from the package rpm SPEC to the +database, and means that description maintainers can just have access to +the database rather than the source tree. Since most uses of rpm don't +make use of the description, bandwidth for normal maintenance goes +down. For things like the install, you include a copy of the database +on the media, or conditionally on the user's system for rpmdrake (much +as they get to choose between hdlist and synthesis today). + +This would allow much more flexible queries, and would allow translators +to extract all descriptions in their own language as a single result +set, identify all packages which do not have a description in a given +language, and so forth. + +If the central database were managed by JEE/EJB with role-based security +tied to the new LDAP database, user maintenance would be fairly simple. +Obviously, for use in captive form (e.g. in the install or on a user's +system), an extract in some other form would be used to avoid the need +for JEE. + +WDYT ? +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002640.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002653.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2643">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2643">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2643">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2643">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002644.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002644.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..55ce8267f --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002644.html @@ -0,0 +1,88 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20network%20balancing%20by%20default&In-Reply-To=%3C201010252009.11511.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002632.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002646.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default</H1> + <B>Maarten Vanraes</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20network%20balancing%20by%20default&In-Reply-To=%3C201010252009.11511.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 20:09:11 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002632.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002646.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2644">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2644">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2644">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2644">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Op maandag 25 oktober 2010 00:56:32 schreef P. Christeas: +><i> On Sunday 24 October 2010, Maarten Vanraes wrote: +</I>><i> > I would propose the following: +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > A.) by default, add for every interface, a little advanced routing which +</I>><i> > makes packets return from the same way they came. +</I>><i> > This usually is only useful with incoming packets, but can still be +</I>><i> > useful if laptops have for example 2 gateways because the wifi is still +</I>><i> > on and the cable is too. That would mean that from both interfaces it'd +</I>><i> > be possible to use ssh or vnc or whatever. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > B.) if we have multiple gateways (like in that case), have them use both +</I>><i> > balancedly. ie: start a small daemon which checks which of the gateways +</I>><i> > is up or down; and change the default gateway accordingly, or even both +</I>><i> > in some kind of balanced mode. (with advanced routing.) +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > This would have the benefit, if you have really clueless users with a +</I>><i> > laptop; that everything will still work well. and you're still able to +</I>><i> > take over his laptop. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Will that do ? : +</I>><i> <A HREF="http://git.hellug.gr/?p=xrg/ip-multipath;a=summary">http://git.hellug.gr/?p=xrg/ip-multipath;a=summary</A> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> (note to myself: I have to build a man^Hgeia rpm..) +</I> +This looks like something different than what i intended; isn't this more of a +configured thing? + +I would propose some changes to the networkingscripts. when having gateway +addresses (through various means) to change the stuff. +</PRE> + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002632.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002646.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2644">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2644">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2644">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2644">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002645.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002645.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..5ba1248db --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002645.html @@ -0,0 +1,76 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Suggestions + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C4CC5C7F0.9000103%40WayneSallee.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002627.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002647.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions</H1> + <B>Wayne Sallee</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C4CC5C7F0.9000103%40WayneSallee.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions">Wayne at WayneSallee.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 20:09:52 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002627.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002647.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2645">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2645">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2645">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2645">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Marc Paré wrote on 10/25/2010 12:31 AM: +><i> +</I>><i> BTW, in my opinion, the default GUI setting in the MCC was not a right +</I>><i> choice. It excluded too many pieces of software for users. I usually +</I>><i> recommended people to select the "All" setting, and from there to +</I>><i> search for the ideal programme. There are just not enough GUI packages +</I>><i> in the repos to make it fun in that particular sections. Everything +</I>><i> should be available to the user. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Marc +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>Yes, that most definitely needs to be fixed. + +Wayne Sallee +<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">Wayne at WayneSallee.com</A> +</PRE> + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002627.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002647.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2645">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2645">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2645">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2645">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002646.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002646.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..5d75b02e3 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002646.html @@ -0,0 +1,65 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20network%20balancing%20by%20default&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTik%2B%3DrzrH6cxo3qZmv1DtqV300MvM9XEzZ%3D1nXgT%40mail.gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002644.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002650.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default</H1> + <B>Wolfgang Bornath</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20network%20balancing%20by%20default&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTik%2B%3DrzrH6cxo3qZmv1DtqV300MvM9XEzZ%3D1nXgT%40mail.gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default">molch.b at googlemail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 20:22:23 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002644.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002650.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2646">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2646">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2646">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2646">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>This may be helpful if there really are 2 different gateways (or +more). But in most cases (in almost all home environments) you have +one gateway which is usable by WiFi and cable. Even if you have 2 such +router/AP devices (like in a large house) it all ends in one single +connection with the internet. Which means only load balancing inside +the internal network - as soon as you want to communicate with the +outside world you are back to one connection, no load balancing. +</PRE> + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002644.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002650.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2646">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2646">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2646">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2646">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002647.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002647.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..85bef3c72 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002647.html @@ -0,0 +1,72 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Suggestions + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTikG20hAjFcJMypcpOmqbqV1Rojmy5QBDUKXYCAa%40mail.gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002645.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002633.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions</H1> + <B>Wolfgang Bornath</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTikG20hAjFcJMypcpOmqbqV1Rojmy5QBDUKXYCAa%40mail.gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions">molch.b at googlemail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 20:26:57 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002645.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002633.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2647">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2647">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2647">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2647">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>2010/10/25 Wayne Sallee <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">Wayne at waynesallee.com</A>>: +><i> Marc Paré wrote on 10/25/2010 12:31 AM: +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> BTW, in my opinion, the default GUI setting in the MCC was not a right +</I>>><i> choice. +</I>>><i> +</I>><i> Yes, that most definitely needs to be fixed. +</I> ++100 ! + +That was asked for many times in the past. +We even have it on the list for user's first steps after installation: +"Change view in rpmdrake to 'All' otherwise you will not find all +packages you are looking for." Time to change the default. +</PRE> + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002645.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002633.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2647">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2647">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2647">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2647">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002648.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002648.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..b0f1f6d99 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002648.html @@ -0,0 +1,75 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Suggestions + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C4CC5CBA0.7090209%40WayneSallee.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002642.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002649.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions</H1> + <B>Wayne Sallee</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C4CC5CBA0.7090209%40WayneSallee.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions">Wayne at WayneSallee.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 20:25:36 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002642.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002649.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2648">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2648">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2648">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2648">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Wolfgang Bornath wrote on 10/25/2010 12:24 PM: +><i> I don't think it would help. There is (was) the tag "Doc" (or similar) +</I>><i> in Bugzilla which already marked the bug as something related to +</I>><i> documentation. Somebody who is concerned and ignored that would also +</I>><i> ignore a separate section and vice versa. +</I>><i> I like a more general approach involving the users and packagers likewise: +</I> +Yea I think that having it all in the same bugzilla is best, though most +newbees are not going to think of posting the issue in a bug report. +Most newbees are going to think that bug reports are for the software +not working right. So I think we need to somehow let the newbees know +that bugzilla is the place to report improvements needed in rpm +documentation. + +Wayne Sallee +<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">Wayne at WayneSallee.com</A> +</PRE> + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002642.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002649.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2648">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2648">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2648">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2648">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002649.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002649.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..8b05bd741 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002649.html @@ -0,0 +1,79 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Suggestions + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTi%3DHRjuxf7BXWRrsu6TUKMXb05C77B0DywkyNbi-%40mail.gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002648.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002654.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions</H1> + <B>Wolfgang Bornath</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTi%3DHRjuxf7BXWRrsu6TUKMXb05C77B0DywkyNbi-%40mail.gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions">molch.b at googlemail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 20:44:28 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002648.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002654.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2649">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2649">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2649">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2649">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>2010/10/25 Wayne Sallee <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">Wayne at waynesallee.com</A>>: +><i> Wolfgang Bornath wrote on 10/25/2010 12:24 PM: +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> I don't think it would help. There is (was) the tag "Doc" (or similar) +</I>>><i> in Bugzilla which already marked the bug as something related to +</I>>><i> documentation. Somebody who is concerned and ignored that would also +</I>>><i> ignore a separate section and vice versa. +</I>>><i>  I like a more general approach involving the users and packagers +</I>>><i> likewise: +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Yea I think that having it all in the same bugzilla is best, though most +</I>><i> newbees are not going to think of posting the issue in a bug report. Most +</I>><i> newbees are going to think that bug reports are for the software not working +</I>><i> right. So I think we need to somehow let the newbees know that bugzilla is +</I>><i> the place to report improvements needed in rpm documentation. +</I> +That's where the part is coming in which you cut from the quote of my mail :) + +-- +wobo +</PRE> + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002648.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002654.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2649">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2649">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2649">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2649">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002650.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002650.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..1aad4ce45 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002650.html @@ -0,0 +1,75 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20network%20balancing%20by%20default&In-Reply-To=%3C201010252044.22465.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002646.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002621.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default</H1> + <B>Maarten Vanraes</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20network%20balancing%20by%20default&In-Reply-To=%3C201010252044.22465.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 20:44:22 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002646.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002621.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2650">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2650">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2650">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2650">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Op maandag 25 oktober 2010 20:22:23 schreef Wolfgang Bornath: +><i> This may be helpful if there really are 2 different gateways (or +</I>><i> more). But in most cases (in almost all home environments) you have +</I>><i> one gateway which is usable by WiFi and cable. Even if you have 2 such +</I>><i> router/AP devices (like in a large house) it all ends in one single +</I>><i> connection with the internet. Which means only load balancing inside +</I>><i> the internal network - as soon as you want to communicate with the +</I>><i> outside world you are back to one connection, no load balancing. +</I> +This is true sometimes in a home situation. work situations are mostly +different. + +or sometimes there is no home wireless; but wifi connections to somewhere else +(or other methods), furthermore, imo it's a cleaner solution of using +everything you've been given. + +it doesn't give anything extra for those users, however, it doesn't hurt +either; but can potentionally benefit others. +</PRE> + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002646.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002621.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2650">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2650">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2650">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2650">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002651.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002651.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..b22f04f71 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002651.html @@ -0,0 +1,170 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20network%20balancing%20by%20default&In-Reply-To=%3C20101025200715.GA2928%40maude.comedia.it%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002631.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002652.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default</H1> + <B>Luca Berra</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20network%20balancing%20by%20default&In-Reply-To=%3C20101025200715.GA2928%40maude.comedia.it%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default">bluca at vodka.it + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 22:07:16 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002631.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002652.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2651">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2651">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2651">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2651">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 08:57:38AM +0200, Maarten Vanraes wrote: +>><i> i did not understood the second and third sentence in A.), then. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> anyways i believe A is useful and can be implemented without any issue +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>><i>it will not conflict with current situation. +</I>that is what i said: "i agree with implementing the above" + +><i> +</I>>><i> >possible problems: +</I>>><i> >A) interface down +</I>>><i> >B) DHCP expired +</I>>><i> >C) gateway down +</I>>><i> >D) further routing down +</I>>><i> >E) DNS down +</I>>><i> > +</I>>><i> >A is trivial, so we'll just skip that one. +</I>>><i> > +</I>>><i> >B seems easy to do too; however, reusing the last DHCP lease could still +</I>>><i> >be usefull, it might well be only a dhcp failure; we should try with the +</I>>><i> >current lease if possible. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> if it is expired you should not. doing this will result in duplicate +</I>>><i> ips. +</I>><i> +</I>><i>ok. +</I>><i> +</I>>><i> >E is a bit of an extra (it's not really routing, but a DNS that's down +</I>>><i> >(does not answer) could well be eliminated (not sure if this should be +</I>>><i> >done separately or not)) OTOH, failure of the recursive DNS of the ISP +</I>>><i> >seems to be somewhat frequent in my experience. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> so a connectivity issue will leave users without dns? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>><i>more the other way around; in the event of dns failure; the dns of the other +</I>><i>gateway could be used. if it would be a routing issue to the DNS (and others), +</I>><i>then other rules could be triggered (C+D) +</I>this has to be implemented very well, my comment was sarcastic, if you +do it badly (i.e. pruning and not reinstating dns you will sooner or +later end with none) + +><i> +</I>>><i> >C+D are tricky: D is even a bit of a grey area; my ISP frequently has a +</I>>><i> >few routes broken. icmp can definately not be relied on in all cases. and +</I>>><i> >even if you ping your gateway, you don't know if it goes any further. +</I>>><i> > +</I>>><i> >This could be circumvented by putting known servers that actually echo +</I>>><i> >icmp in a list and ping those. but for that matter, it doesn't have to be +</I>>><i> >icmp; we could easily have a list of public services that can be +</I>>><i> >connected to. but is this really what we want? +</I>>><i> > +</I>>><i> >We could even just monitor how much packets are unreplied to per interface +</I>>><i> >and choose that. +</I>>><i> > +</I>>><i> >Or we could try to have each retry of unreplied packet go through the next +</I>>><i> >default route. +</I>>><i> > +</I>>><i> >Or we could just not handle that (like it is now). +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> +1 +</I>>><i> you are considering the only scenario of a home user. doing some things +</I>>><i> you propose above would prevent using mageia in any medium sized +</I>>><i> network. (i.e. i could not use my mageia laptop at work) +</I>><i> +</I>><i>I don't see what you mean by this. i list 4 options; knowing full well that +</I>><i>some of those options are not usefull by default. also, this is only required +</I>><i>if more than one default gateway is active; which is a small percentage in +</I>><i>itself. (my personal favourite is having it sent to the other default gateway +</I>><i>after failure; or seeing which has more unreplied packets; and then check some +</I>><i>public services) +</I>i mean that if mageia is known for misbehaving wrt dhcp leases corporate +policies will start including a ban on mageia. + +>><i> >remember that right now only A(+B) is used; and having balanced default +</I>>><i> >routes would probably mean that there is 50% packet loss, instead of 100% +</I>>><i> >in most cases. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> which may be worse. +</I>>><i> if nothing works the user will try switching to a different connection +</I>>><i> if stuff do not work at random the user will not know what to do. +</I>><i> +</I>><i>it could be worse, depending on the type of person. +</I>><i> +</I>>><i> btw, the assumption about 50% is flawed, i don't know if it is an +</I>>><i> oversimplification or a failure to understand how load balancing over +</I>>><i> multiple network links work in practice. +</I>>><i> it is not round-robin, it is route-based (on ip hash) +</I>>><i> the result of a failure upstream will result in the user being able to, +</I>>><i> say, watch some videos on youtube, but not update her fb profile, or +</I>>><i> worse. +</I>><i> +</I>><i>i meant on average in total, depending on what kind of balancing is used. +</I> +I believe you cannot change the ip load balancing method. + +I would prefer an option (not active by default) that would allow users +to decide preferred default network connections and fail over to backup +network connections if the active one fails (possibly allowing failback, +but not by default). +It could implement some smart way of finding wether a connection is +actually working. But data to do this has to be user supplied, it is too +difficult to find the right one with so diverse possible networking +environments. +I'd leave all load balancing out of the picture, it is very difficult to +get right. +Even interface bonding with tlb can be disruptive to network setups. + +L. + + +-- +Luca Berra -- <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">bluca at vodka.it</A> +</PRE> + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002631.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002652.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2651">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2651">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2651">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2651">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002652.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002652.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..82fda0873 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002652.html @@ -0,0 +1,164 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20network%20balancing%20by%20default&In-Reply-To=%3C201010252257.06518.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002651.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002620.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default</H1> + <B>Maarten Vanraes</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20network%20balancing%20by%20default&In-Reply-To=%3C201010252257.06518.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 22:57:06 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002651.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002620.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2652">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2652">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2652">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2652">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Op maandag 25 oktober 2010 22:07:16 schreef Luca Berra: +><i> >> >E is a bit of an extra (it's not really routing, but a DNS that's down +</I>><i> >> >(does not answer) could well be eliminated (not sure if this should be +</I>><i> >> >done separately or not)) OTOH, failure of the recursive DNS of the ISP +</I>><i> >> >seems to be somewhat frequent in my experience. +</I>><i> >> +</I>><i> >> so a connectivity issue will leave users without dns? +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> >more the other way around; in the event of dns failure; the dns of the +</I>><i> >other gateway could be used. if it would be a routing issue to the DNS +</I>><i> >(and others), then other rules could be triggered (C+D) +</I>><i> +</I>><i> this has to be implemented very well, my comment was sarcastic, if you +</I>><i> do it badly (i.e. pruning and not reinstating dns you will sooner or +</I>><i> later end with none) +</I> +imo, this can be handled just like ifup and the like do it; but i'm not sure +if i would have this option on by default. + +><i> >> >C+D are tricky: D is even a bit of a grey area; my ISP frequently has a +</I>><i> >> >few routes broken. icmp can definately not be relied on in all cases. +</I>><i> >> >and even if you ping your gateway, you don't know if it goes any +</I>><i> >> >further. +</I>><i> >> > +</I>><i> >> >This could be circumvented by putting known servers that actually echo +</I>><i> >> >icmp in a list and ping those. but for that matter, it doesn't have to +</I>><i> >> >be icmp; we could easily have a list of public services that can be +</I>><i> >> >connected to. but is this really what we want? +</I>><i> >> > +</I>><i> >> >We could even just monitor how much packets are unreplied to per +</I>><i> >> >interface and choose that. +</I>><i> >> > +</I>><i> >> >Or we could try to have each retry of unreplied packet go through the +</I>><i> >> >next default route. +</I>><i> >> > +</I>><i> >> >Or we could just not handle that (like it is now). +</I>><i> >> +</I>><i> >> +1 +</I>><i> >> you are considering the only scenario of a home user. doing some things +</I>><i> >> you propose above would prevent using mageia in any medium sized +</I>><i> >> network. (i.e. i could not use my mageia laptop at work) +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> >I don't see what you mean by this. i list 4 options; knowing full well +</I>><i> >that some of those options are not usefull by default. also, this is only +</I>><i> >required if more than one default gateway is active; which is a small +</I>><i> >percentage in itself. (my personal favourite is having it sent to the +</I>><i> >other default gateway after failure; or seeing which has more unreplied +</I>><i> >packets; and then check some public services) +</I>><i> +</I>><i> i mean that if mageia is known for misbehaving wrt dhcp leases corporate +</I>><i> policies will start including a ban on mageia. +</I> +right, i understand now. + +><i> >> >remember that right now only A(+B) is used; and having balanced default +</I>><i> >> >routes would probably mean that there is 50% packet loss, instead of +</I>><i> >> >100% in most cases. +</I>><i> >> +</I>><i> >> which may be worse. +</I>><i> >> if nothing works the user will try switching to a different connection +</I>><i> >> if stuff do not work at random the user will not know what to do. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> >it could be worse, depending on the type of person. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> >> btw, the assumption about 50% is flawed, i don't know if it is an +</I>><i> >> oversimplification or a failure to understand how load balancing over +</I>><i> >> multiple network links work in practice. +</I>><i> >> it is not round-robin, it is route-based (on ip hash) +</I>><i> >> the result of a failure upstream will result in the user being able to, +</I>><i> >> say, watch some videos on youtube, but not update her fb profile, or +</I>><i> >> worse. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> >i meant on average in total, depending on what kind of balancing is used. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> I believe you cannot change the ip load balancing method. +</I> +I mean there are several rules that can be used to decide what balancing is +used; the most common one being the weighted one. + +><i> I would prefer an option (not active by default) that would allow users +</I>><i> to decide preferred default network connections and fail over to backup +</I>><i> network connections if the active one fails (possibly allowing failback, +</I>><i> but not by default). +</I>><i> It could implement some smart way of finding wether a connection is +</I>><i> actually working. But data to do this has to be user supplied, it is too +</I>><i> difficult to find the right one with so diverse possible networking +</I>><i> environments. +</I>><i> I'd leave all load balancing out of the picture, it is very difficult to +</I>><i> get right. +</I>><i> Even interface bonding with tlb can be disruptive to network setups. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> L. +</I> + +i have seen lots of environments that have wifi direct out access and the +cabled access being internal and having extra access to internal servers. +(also some the other way around too.) + +I think we should allow multiple configurable policies for this; but we should +try to find one that will work well for everyone and use that one as default. + + +if one interface has all it's packets unreplied for X time (30sec with a +minimum of 10 packets?) we could evaluate that interface to be temporarily +down. i think this kind of setup would work for everyone. + +just my thoughts, + +Maarten +</PRE> + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002651.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002620.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2652">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2652">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2652">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2652">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002653.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002653.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..6db71bb8b --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002653.html @@ -0,0 +1,124 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Suggestions + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C4CC5F3F1.8040009%40laposte.net%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002643.html"> + + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions</H1> + <B>andre999</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C4CC5F3F1.8040009%40laposte.net%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions">andr55 at laposte.net + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 23:17:37 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002643.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2653">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2653">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2653">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2653">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Frank Griffin a écrit : +><i> Michael Scherer wrote: +</I>><i> +</I>>><i> So we need to find a better way. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Better in two points : +</I>>><i> - better way to distribute it +</I>>><i> - better way to translate it +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> +</I>><i> Maybe the problem is trying to use rpm as the management tool for +</I>><i> descriptions. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Long, long, ago I had to write an order processing system for an IBM +</I>><i> 5100, which supported 2 languages - APL and Basic - both of which were +</I>><i> interpreted, meaning the source code had to fit into memory, which was 32K. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> This made it virtually impossible to comment the code in any meaningful +</I>><i> way, since the comments took up memory needed for code. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> What I finally settled upon was to tag blocks of code with a 4-or-5 +</I>><i> character comment which was basically an index key into a typewritten +</I>><i> document which contained the program comments. The same thing might +</I>><i> work here. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Change the rpm description to a database table partial key which +</I>><i> corresponds to the package. Then set up a database table keyed by that +</I>><i> partial key plus a language ID, and place the description in that +</I>><i> language there. Change tools which display package descriptions to use +</I>><i> the rpm value as a key into the database combined with the locale language. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> This shifts the space requirement from the package rpm SPEC to the +</I>><i> database, and means that description maintainers can just have access to +</I>><i> the database rather than the source tree. Since most uses of rpm don't +</I>><i> make use of the description, bandwidth for normal maintenance goes +</I>><i> down. For things like the install, you include a copy of the database +</I>><i> on the media, or conditionally on the user's system for rpmdrake (much +</I>><i> as they get to choose between hdlist and synthesis today). +</I>><i> +</I>><i> This would allow much more flexible queries, and would allow translators +</I>><i> to extract all descriptions in their own language as a single result +</I>><i> set, identify all packages which do not have a description in a given +</I>><i> language, and so forth. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> If the central database were managed by JEE/EJB with role-based security +</I>><i> tied to the new LDAP database, user maintenance would be fairly simple. +</I>><i> Obviously, for use in captive form (e.g. in the install or on a user's +</I>><i> system), an extract in some other form would be used to avoid the need +</I>><i> for JEE. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> WDYT ? +</I>><i> +</I> +Interesting idea. As I understand, descriptions are stored in local the +database of already installed packages, so this would be a pre-install +equivalent. +However there is the problem of keeping everything in sync, if the +documentation is not included in the rpms. + +If in the development process the descriptions were kept in such a +central database, along with their localisations, they could be +automatically extracted from the database for insertion in the package +when the package is generated. +That won't reduce the size of the Rpms, but it would ensure that the +description, with localisations, is always included in the Rpm. +Since last minute changes before packaging are much less likely to +change displayed text (or documentation), the localisations risk being +up to date. + +</PRE> + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002643.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2653">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2653">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2653">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2653">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002654.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002654.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..0386a6fb6 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/002654.html @@ -0,0 +1,168 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Suggestions + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C4CC5FD10.9020408%40laposte.net%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002649.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002640.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions</H1> + <B>andre999</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Suggestions&In-Reply-To=%3C4CC5FD10.9020408%40laposte.net%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions">andr55 at laposte.net + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 25 23:56:32 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002649.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002640.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2654">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2654">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2654">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2654">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : +><i> +</I> +><i> 2010/10/25 Wayne Sallee <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">Wayne at waynesallee.com</A>>: +</I> +><i> > Wolfgang Bornath wrote on 10/25/2010 12:24 PM: +</I> +><i> >> +</I> +><i> >> I don't think it would help. There is (was) the tag "Doc" +</I>(or + +><i> >> similar) in Bugzilla which already marked the bug as +</I>something + +><i> >> related to documentation. Somebody who is concerned and +</I>ignored + +><i> >> that would also ignore a separate section and vice versa. +</I>I like + +><i> >> a more general approach involving the users and packagers +</I> +><i> >> likewise: +</I> +><i> > +</I> +><i> > Yea I think that having it all in the same bugzilla is best, +</I>though + +><i> > most newbees are not going to think of posting the issue in a +</I>bug + +><i> > report. Most newbees are going to think that bug reports are +</I>for + +><i> > the software not working right. So I think we need to somehow +</I>let + +><i> > the newbees know that bugzilla is the place to report +</I>improvements + +><i> > needed in rpm documentation. +</I> +><i> +</I> +><i> That's where the part is coming in which you cut from the quote of +</I>my + +><i> mail :) +</I> +What about "docuzilla", a place to treat documentation ? + +There is a fundamental difference between software bugs, and +documentation considerations. +Software bugs often do not have an obvious cause, and generally require +a level of technical + expertise that surpasses the average user. +For documentation, the problem, and its solution, are generally obvious +to an average user who understands + the language in question. +There is the problem, for the package description, of knowing what the +program does, but although + the developers can give a technical description, this often has to be +reworked to be in a form + the average non-technical user can understand. + +1) Documentation and text displayed in programs have to be localised. +Program logic does not. + (At least, beyond doing internationised coding.) + +2) Documentation has to be presented in a manner that non-technical +users can understand. + Program logic has to be presented in a manner that technical people +can follow. + +3) Problems with documentation is generally best corrected by +non-technical users. + Program logic is the domain of technical specialists. + +4) Documentation is best developed and corrected together, in +essentially the same process. + Program development and debugging are different processes, although +they can involve the + same people. + +Bugzilla could be used for both types of problems. Maybe just +separating the input and + correction interfaces would suffice, but it seems to me that we really +need to take a + different approach to the 2 types of problems. + +Here we are all technical people (not necessarily developers), and we +have no problem with bug +reports, etc. +But many documenters and translaters are essentially non-technical, and +they should have a good +sense of presentation to non-technical users in order to make credible +contributions. +And when they contribute corrections, they have no need of the +formalised process of bugzilla. +A correction is generally a quick glance, verify the context, and it's done. + +Whence my proposal for a separate section of bugzilla. More accessible +for non-technical users, +who thus risque to contribute more actively to Mageia. + +But if anyone has a better idea ... + +Another 2 cents :) + +- André + +</PRE> + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002649.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002640.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2654">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2654">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2654">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2654">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/author.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/author.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..bd5f952d1 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/author.html @@ -0,0 +1,227 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <title>The Mageia-discuss 25 October 2010 Archive by author</title> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="noindex,follow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <a name="start"></A> + <h1>25 October 2010 Archives by author</h1> + <ul> + <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b> + <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a> + + <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a> + + <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More info on this list... + </a></b></li> + </ul> + <p><b>Starting:</b> <i>Mon Oct 25 00:00:46 CEST 2010</i><br> + <b>Ending:</b> <i>Mon Oct 25 23:56:32 CEST 2010</i><br> + <b>Messages:</b> 36<p> + <ul> + +<LI><A HREF="002629.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2629"> </A> +<I>Luca Berra +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002630.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2630"> </A> +<I>Luca Berra +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002651.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2651"> </A> +<I>Luca Berra +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002636.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2636"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002641.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2641"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002646.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2646"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002647.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2647"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002649.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2649"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002620.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2620"> </A> +<I>P. Christeas +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002643.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2643"> </A> +<I>Frank Griffin +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002633.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2633"> </A> +<I>Juergen Harms +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002622.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2622"> </A> +<I>Dale Huckeby +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002626.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2626"> </A> +<I>Kira +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002624.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2624"> </A> +<I>Marc Paré +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002625.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2625"> </A> +<I>Marc Paré +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002627.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2627"> </A> +<I>Marc Paré +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002623.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2623"> </A> +<I>Liam R E Quin +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002621.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2621"> </A> +<I>Wayne Sallee +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002635.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2635"> </A> +<I>Wayne Sallee +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002645.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2645"> </A> +<I>Wayne Sallee +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002648.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2648"> </A> +<I>Wayne Sallee +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002628.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2628"> </A> +<I>Ahmad Samir +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002639.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2639"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002642.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2642"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002619.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2619"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002631.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2631"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002632.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2632"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002644.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2644"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002650.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2650"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002652.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2652"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002637.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2637"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002638.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2638"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002640.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2640"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002653.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2653"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002654.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2654"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002634.html">[Mageia-discuss] [Mageia-announce] One month later: Mageia’s home is almost habitable! +</A><A NAME="2634"> </A> +<I>Romain d'Alverny +</I> + + </ul> + <p> + <a name="end"><b>Last message date:</b></a> + <i>Mon Oct 25 23:56:32 CEST 2010</i><br> + <b>Archived on:</b> <i>Mon Oct 25 23:56:39 CEST 2010</i> + <p> + <ul> + <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b> + <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a> + + <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a> + <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More info on this list... + </a></b></li> + </ul> + <p> + <hr> + <i>This archive was generated by + Pipermail 0.09 (Mailman edition).</i> + </BODY> +</HTML> + diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/date.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/date.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..778f83310 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/date.html @@ -0,0 +1,227 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <title>The Mageia-discuss 25 October 2010 Archive by date</title> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="noindex,follow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <a name="start"></A> + <h1>25 October 2010 Archives by date</h1> + <ul> + <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b> + <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a> + + + <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More info on this list... + </a></b></li> + </ul> + <p><b>Starting:</b> <i>Mon Oct 25 00:00:46 CEST 2010</i><br> + <b>Ending:</b> <i>Mon Oct 25 23:56:32 CEST 2010</i><br> + <b>Messages:</b> 36<p> + <ul> + +<LI><A HREF="002619.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2619"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002620.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2620"> </A> +<I>P. Christeas +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002621.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2621"> </A> +<I>Wayne Sallee +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002622.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2622"> </A> +<I>Dale Huckeby +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002623.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2623"> </A> +<I>Liam R E Quin +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002624.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2624"> </A> +<I>Marc Paré +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002625.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2625"> </A> +<I>Marc Paré +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002626.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2626"> </A> +<I>Kira +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002627.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2627"> </A> +<I>Marc Paré +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002628.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2628"> </A> +<I>Ahmad Samir +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002629.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2629"> </A> +<I>Luca Berra +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002630.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2630"> </A> +<I>Luca Berra +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002631.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2631"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002632.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2632"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002633.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2633"> </A> +<I>Juergen Harms +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002634.html">[Mageia-discuss] [Mageia-announce] One month later: Mageia’s home is almost habitable! +</A><A NAME="2634"> </A> +<I>Romain d'Alverny +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002635.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2635"> </A> +<I>Wayne Sallee +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002636.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2636"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002637.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2637"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002638.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2638"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002639.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2639"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002640.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2640"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002641.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2641"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002642.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2642"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002643.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2643"> </A> +<I>Frank Griffin +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002644.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2644"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002645.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2645"> </A> +<I>Wayne Sallee +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002646.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2646"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002648.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2648"> </A> +<I>Wayne Sallee +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002647.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2647"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002650.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2650"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002649.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2649"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002651.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2651"> </A> +<I>Luca Berra +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002652.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2652"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002653.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2653"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002654.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2654"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + + </ul> + <p> + <a name="end"><b>Last message date:</b></a> + <i>Mon Oct 25 23:56:32 CEST 2010</i><br> + <b>Archived on:</b> <i>Mon Oct 25 23:56:39 CEST 2010</i> + <p> + <ul> + <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b> + <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a> + + <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More info on this list... + </a></b></li> + </ul> + <p> + <hr> + <i>This archive was generated by + Pipermail 0.09 (Mailman edition).</i> + </BODY> +</HTML> + diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/index.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/index.html new file mode 120000 index 000000000..db4b46f72 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/index.html @@ -0,0 +1 @@ +thread.html
\ No newline at end of file diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/subject.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/subject.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..23d42e0d7 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/subject.html @@ -0,0 +1,227 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <title>The Mageia-discuss 25 October 2010 Archive by subject</title> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="noindex,follow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <a name="start"></A> + <h1>25 October 2010 Archives by subject</h1> + <ul> + <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b> + <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a> + + <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a> + <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a> + + <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More info on this list... + </a></b></li> + </ul> + <p><b>Starting:</b> <i>Mon Oct 25 00:00:46 CEST 2010</i><br> + <b>Ending:</b> <i>Mon Oct 25 23:56:32 CEST 2010</i><br> + <b>Messages:</b> 36<p> + <ul> + +<LI><A HREF="002634.html">[Mageia-discuss] [Mageia-announce] One month later: Mageia’s home is almost habitable! +</A><A NAME="2634"> </A> +<I>Romain d'Alverny +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002619.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2619"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002620.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2620"> </A> +<I>P. Christeas +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002630.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2630"> </A> +<I>Luca Berra +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002631.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2631"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002632.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2632"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002644.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2644"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002646.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2646"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002650.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2650"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002651.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2651"> </A> +<I>Luca Berra +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002652.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2652"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002621.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2621"> </A> +<I>Wayne Sallee +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002622.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2622"> </A> +<I>Dale Huckeby +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002623.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2623"> </A> +<I>Liam R E Quin +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002624.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2624"> </A> +<I>Marc Paré +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002625.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2625"> </A> +<I>Marc Paré +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002626.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2626"> </A> +<I>Kira +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002627.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2627"> </A> +<I>Marc Paré +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002628.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2628"> </A> +<I>Ahmad Samir +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002629.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2629"> </A> +<I>Luca Berra +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002633.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2633"> </A> +<I>Juergen Harms +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002635.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2635"> </A> +<I>Wayne Sallee +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002636.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2636"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002637.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2637"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002638.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2638"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002639.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2639"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002640.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2640"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002641.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2641"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002642.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2642"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002643.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2643"> </A> +<I>Frank Griffin +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002645.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2645"> </A> +<I>Wayne Sallee +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002648.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2648"> </A> +<I>Wayne Sallee +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002647.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2647"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002649.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2649"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002653.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2653"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002654.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2654"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + + </ul> + <p> + <a name="end"><b>Last message date:</b></a> + <i>Mon Oct 25 23:56:32 CEST 2010</i><br> + <b>Archived on:</b> <i>Mon Oct 25 23:56:39 CEST 2010</i> + <p> + <ul> + <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b> + <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a> + + <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a> + <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a> + <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More info on this list... + </a></b></li> + </ul> + <p> + <hr> + <i>This archive was generated by + Pipermail 0.09 (Mailman edition).</i> + </BODY> +</HTML> + diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/thread.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/thread.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..d7f1cf201 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101025/thread.html @@ -0,0 +1,295 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <title>The Mageia-discuss 25 October 2010 Archive by thread</title> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="noindex,follow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <a name="start"></A> + <h1>25 October 2010 Archives by thread</h1> + <ul> + <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b> + + <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a> + <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a> + + <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More info on this list... + </a></b></li> + </ul> + <p><b>Starting:</b> <i>Mon Oct 25 00:00:46 CEST 2010</i><br> + <b>Ending:</b> <i>Mon Oct 25 23:56:32 CEST 2010</i><br> + <b>Messages:</b> 36<p> + <ul> + +<!--0 01287957646- --> +<LI><A HREF="002619.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2619"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + +<UL> +<!--1 01287957646-01287988861- --> +<LI><A HREF="002630.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2630"> </A> +<I>Luca Berra +</I> + +<UL> +<!--2 01287957646-01287988861-01287989858- --> +<LI><A HREF="002631.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2631"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + +<UL> +<!--3 01287957646-01287988861-01287989858-01288037236- --> +<LI><A HREF="002651.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2651"> </A> +<I>Luca Berra +</I> + +<!--3 01287957646-01287988861-01287989858-01288037236-01288040226- --> +<LI><A HREF="002652.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2652"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + +</UL> +</UL> +</UL> +<!--0 01287960992- --> +<LI><A HREF="002620.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2620"> </A> +<I>P. Christeas +</I> + +<UL> +<!--1 01287960992-01287989901- --> +<LI><A HREF="002632.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2632"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + +<!--1 01287960992-01288030151- --> +<LI><A HREF="002644.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2644"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + +<UL> +<!--2 01287960992-01288030151-01288030943- --> +<LI><A HREF="002646.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2646"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<UL> +<!--3 01287960992-01288030151-01288030943-01288032262- --> +<LI><A HREF="002650.html">[Mageia-discuss] network balancing by default +</A><A NAME="2650"> </A> +<I>Maarten Vanraes +</I> + +</UL> +</UL> +</UL> +<!--0 01287965959- --> +<LI><A HREF="002621.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2621"> </A> +<I>Wayne Sallee +</I> + +<UL> +<!--1 01287965959-01287979165- --> +<LI><A HREF="002625.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2625"> </A> +<I>Marc Paré +</I> + +<UL> +<!--2 01287965959-01287979165-01287979971- --> +<LI><A HREF="002626.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2626"> </A> +<I>Kira +</I> + +<UL> +<!--3 01287965959-01287979165-01287979971-01287981081- --> +<LI><A HREF="002627.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2627"> </A> +<I>Marc Paré +</I> + +<!--3 01287965959-01287979165-01287979971-01287981081-01288030192- --> +<LI><A HREF="002645.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2645"> </A> +<I>Wayne Sallee +</I> + +<!--3 01287965959-01287979165-01287979971-01287981081-01288030192-01288031217- --> +<LI><A HREF="002647.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2647"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +</UL> +<!--2 01287965959-01287979165-01287990307- --> +<LI><A HREF="002633.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2633"> </A> +<I>Juergen Harms +</I> + +</UL> +<!--1 01287965959-01287985369- --> +<LI><A HREF="002628.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2628"> </A> +<I>Ahmad Samir +</I> + +<!--1 01287965959-01287987408- --> +<LI><A HREF="002629.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2629"> </A> +<I>Luca Berra +</I> + +<UL> +<!--2 01287965959-01287987408-01288011178- --> +<LI><A HREF="002635.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2635"> </A> +<I>Wayne Sallee +</I> + +<UL> +<!--3 01287965959-01287987408-01288011178-01288012831- --> +<LI><A HREF="002636.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2636"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +</UL> +</UL> +</UL> +<!--0 01287971189- --> +<LI><A HREF="002622.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2622"> </A> +<I>Dale Huckeby +</I> + +<UL> +<!--1 01287971189-01287974882- --> +<LI><A HREF="002623.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2623"> </A> +<I>Liam R E Quin +</I> + +</UL> +<!--0 01287978711- --> +<LI><A HREF="002624.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2624"> </A> +<I>Marc Paré +</I> + +<!--0 01287997647- --> +<LI><A HREF="002634.html">[Mageia-discuss] [Mageia-announce] One month later: Mageia’s home is almost habitable! +</A><A NAME="2634"> </A> +<I>Romain d'Alverny +</I> + +<!--0 01288019717- --> +<LI><A HREF="002637.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2637"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<!--0 01288021056- --> +<LI><A HREF="002638.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2638"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<UL> +<!--1 01288021056-01288021810- --> +<LI><A HREF="002639.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2639"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<UL> +<!--2 01288021056-01288021810-01288023845- --> +<LI><A HREF="002641.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2641"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<UL> +<!--3 01288021056-01288021810-01288023845-01288024675- --> +<LI><A HREF="002642.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2642"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<!--3 01288021056-01288021810-01288023845-01288031136- --> +<LI><A HREF="002648.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2648"> </A> +<I>Wayne Sallee +</I> + +<!--3 01288021056-01288021810-01288023845-01288031136-01288032268- --> +<LI><A HREF="002649.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2649"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<!--3 01288021056-01288021810-01288023845-01288031136-01288032268-01288043792- --> +<LI><A HREF="002654.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2654"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +</UL> +</UL> +</UL> +<!--0 01288023631- --> +<LI><A HREF="002640.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2640"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +<!--0 01288029103- --> +<LI><A HREF="002643.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2643"> </A> +<I>Frank Griffin +</I> + +<UL> +<!--1 01288029103-01288041457- --> +<LI><A HREF="002653.html">[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions +</A><A NAME="2653"> </A> +<I>andre999 +</I> + +</UL> + </ul> + <p> + <a name="end"><b>Last message date:</b></a> + <i>Mon Oct 25 23:56:32 CEST 2010</i><br> + <b>Archived on:</b> <i>Mon Oct 25 23:56:39 CEST 2010</i> + <p> + <ul> + <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b> + + <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a> + <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a> + <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More info on this list... + </a></b></li> + </ul> + <p> + <hr> + <i>This archive was generated by + Pipermail 0.09 (Mailman edition).</i> + </BODY> +</HTML> + |