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diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002452.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002452.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..ecca92b4f --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002452.html @@ -0,0 +1,84 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] rpm compatibility + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20rpm%20compatibility&In-Reply-To=%3C1287354937.3696.4.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002454.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002455.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] rpm compatibility</H1> + <B>Michael Scherer</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20rpm%20compatibility&In-Reply-To=%3C1287354937.3696.4.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] rpm compatibility">misc at zarb.org + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 18 00:35:37 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002454.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002455.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2452">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2452">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2452">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2452">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Le lundi 18 octobre 2010 à 00:16 +0530, Akshay Arora a écrit : +><i> Some related questions, +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Is there any interest/talk on, a supplemental one-click install like +</I>><i> web based system? +</I> +You are free to work on it, but for the moment and as said numerous time +in the past on this ml, we are still at the start of the project, and we +do not intend to do lots of change before the release of the 1st iso, +because changing everything before the first release is the perfect way +to never release anything. + +( and we already have this feature on Mandriva, just click on a rpm to +have it opened with gurpmi ). + +><i> What about an option for installing self contained packages like in +</I>><i> macos or +</I>><i> <A HREF="klik://.">klik://.</A> +</I> +to me, that's a bad idea : +- it take more time to download, more space on mirror ( see the thread +about the current mirror size, and the issue for mirror admin ) + +- it complicate the security update deployement +-- +Michael Scherer + +</PRE> + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002454.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002455.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2452">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2452">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2452">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2452">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002454.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002454.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..372805cf9 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002454.html @@ -0,0 +1,284 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3C201010181130.36920.yorick_%40openoffice.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002452.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection</H1> + <B>Graham Lauder</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3C201010181130.36920.yorick_%40openoffice.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection">yorick_ at openoffice.org + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 18 00:30:36 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002452.html">[Mageia-discuss] rpm compatibility +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2454">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2454">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2454">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2454">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>On Sunday 17 Oct 2010 20:43:41 andré wrote: +><i> Graham Lauder a écrit : +</I>><i> > On Thursday 14 Oct 2010 06:39:32 Wolfgang Bornath wrote: +</I>><i> >> 2010/10/13 Marc Paré<<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">marc at marcpare.com</A>>: +</I>><i> >>> I think Graham is trying to voice (I agree with him at this point) is +</I>><i> >>> that the marketing/communications committee is working through steps +</I>><i> >>> that lead to branding suggestions. We are almost done with the +</I>><i> >>> groundwork and holding off a bit would help us in completing and +</I>><i> >>> presenting our suggestions. +</I>><i> >> +</I>><i> >> As I wrote I do agree as well. +</I>><i> >> +</I>><i> >>> This is not a case of branding a targeted group at this point but the +</I>><i> >>> overall flavour of the Mageia brand. +</I>><i> >> +</I>><i> >> Uh, sorry, I thought he wrote "identifying target markets", may be I +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Indeed he did +</I> +Indeed I did, but to create a brand, you need to identify target markets. +There could be dozens and in fact I've identified about six that I think that +we could be successful in. That does not mean we somehow automatically +exclude all others, but identifying them means we can shape our brand to suit. + +Right now, after discussions, our initial target market is likely to be a +technical market to expand our contributor community. This market is +completely different from the "Family" market that seemed to upset so many +people, so the branding for these two groups is likely to be completely +different. Our work continues. + +><i> +</I>><i> >> did not read it right? I am not talking about the time when this will +</I>><i> >> be done but rather voice another warning about being too restrictive +</I>><i> >> while doing that "indentifying target markets", whenever that will be. +</I>><i> >> I still remember the previous discussion about such restrictive +</I>><i> >> targets as "young couples" and the like, basing the procedure on +</I>><i> >> demographic statistics of certain parts of the world. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > Ack and I swore I wasn't going to get into this discussion again because +</I>><i> > it's like talking to a brick wall ... +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Excuse us if we have the same impression +</I> +My problem was that I am only one person, I figured that having to come back +to the lists and explain myself repeatedly is not a profitable (for Mageia) +use of my time. It appears however that I'm going to have to make the effort +and I apologise for my shortness. + +><i> +</I>><i> > However, you still stubbornly hold to the view that somehow, by a piece +</I>><i> > of grand magic that nobody else in the business world has ever managed +</I>><i> > to do, unless they are a monopoly, we can come up with something that +</I>><i> > suits everyone in the world of all ages. Tell us what that secret is +</I>><i> > because you'll be able to sell it for millions. Usually the people who +</I>><i> > say this are in reality saying "Everybody in MY demographic" +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Somehow you sound like you think you that Mageia can be marketed like +</I>><i> cosmetics. +</I>><i> This isn't fantasy island. And Linux and computers aren't gimmicks. +</I> +I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion, marketing is not fantasy, quite +the opposite. The reason that the successful companies are successful is +because of marketing. They do their market research, they come to conclusions +which inform their marketing plan and they Brand to suit. + + +><i> +</I>><i> > The reality is: We are going into a saturated market, there are hundreds +</I>><i> > of distros out there, the successful ones have identified their target +</I>><i> > markets and branded to that market, The major competitor works +</I>><i> > effectively in a Monopolistic atmosphere while still spending $US500 +</I>><i> > million annually on marketing and you think they don't target markets! +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Sure. Their target market is anyone who thinks that they might want a +</I>><i> computer. Or any company that might want to sell one. And the many +</I>><i> thousands of politicians easily swayed by campaign contributions ... +</I>><i> (It worked in Massachusetts.) +</I> +One of MS's advantages is they are established as a virtual monopoly. They +started off with a very tight target market, a market of one: IBM. Then they +expanded to young techie users, then educational institutions but all along +their main marketing thrust was B2B. Their idea was to create software that +allowed hardware manufacturers to add value to their hardware and they +expanded their market from that. Unfortunately for us, They did things really +well in a relatively new market and as a consequence they have managed to +virtually monopolise that market and so the same path is not open to us. +However we can learn from what they did and expanding from a focused market is +one way of doing that. Of course we don't have the financial resources of an +MS or a CocaCola. + +And don't get me started on Massachusetts. :) + +><i> +</I>><i> > We have been working on publishing the Core Values over the past week or +</I>><i> > so, that immediately defines a market in and of itself. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > The families market suggestion was one that came to me because of +</I>><i> > personal experience in my business in that my most successful instances +</I>><i> > of selling linux have (after studying results) been in a family +</I>><i> > environment where the small network support model was functioning. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > Now in my market then the target would be the Mothers, in Germany, +</I>><i> > according to your analysis, the Fathers, in each of these markets the +</I>><i> > upshot of success is 2.4 users, or possibly more if you count 3 +</I>><i> > generations (Or whatever your average family size wherever you are) and +</I>><i> > an instant local support network (MS's greatest strength). +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > The point is the suggestion was made giving due consideration to a pile +</I>><i> > of factors including maintaining user base, aka: Brand Loyalty (Kevin +</I>><i> > Roberts, of Saatchis calls 'Building Love Brands' and he often cites +</I>><i> > Apple as an example). +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > Now does that mean we are restricting the market, of course not. Apple's +</I>><i> > target is young, high disposable income, singles. To me that's obvious +</I>><i> > and I could prove that, but I was told that "Apple Targets everyone" +</I>><i> > ???? naturally by someone in that demographic. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Hate to burst your bubble, but in Canada Apple computers biggest market +</I>><i> penetration is post-secondary students - not exactly a high income group. +</I> +It's OK my bubble is intact. :) Secondary students are in fact in this +group, because they tend to be financed by their parents, hence "disposable +income". I'm a parent, any money I give to my kids is disposed of. ;) Also +the demographic is aspirational, so the tendency is for this younger group to +act in a fashion that fits the demographic that they aspire to. + +><i> +</I>><i> > Marketing is not witchcraft or voodoo, it's a science and an art form. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Make up your mind - is it a science, or an art form ? +</I>><i> It can't be both. +</I> +You obviously haven't read Richard Dawkins, :) +<A HREF="http://bigthink.com/ideas/17063">http://bigthink.com/ideas/17063</A> + Many of the greatest scientists were artists, DaVinci and Newton just off the +top of my head. + + +><i> +</I>><i> > We need to get on with it and no matter what there is an absolute given: +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > "You cannot please all of the people all of the time" +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > Really, at this point we have a lot of work to do before we define or +</I>><i> > even identify our target market. When we get to that point any realistic +</I>><i> > positive alternatives will be well received. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> If Mageia restricts itself to one target market, that's not going to help. +</I>><i> It needs to reach out in many directions, with many focuses. +</I>><i> It won't survive without an active contributing community, which means +</I>><i> in the near and medium term, appealing to current Mandriva users and +</I>><i> contributors. +</I>><i> One can *add* various targets, but to centre everything around a +</I>><i> hypothetical, unproven target is suicide. And no amount of marketing +</I>><i> mumble jumble will change that. +</I> +OK a few things, Linux in all colours is already restricted to 1.5% of the +market, can't get more restricted that. According to the latest Distrowatch +stats there are 317 Linux distributions sharing that 1.5%. Arguably around +80% is shared amongst the top 10. There are 1.5 billion computers out there +give or take, so approx. 22.5 million on linux. Of the remaining 1.47 +billion, how many do you think are in homes with families. + +In 2003 according to US stats +(<A HREF="http://maisonbisson.com/blog/post/11088/us-census-on-internet-access-and-">http://maisonbisson.com/blog/post/11088/us-census-on-internet-access-and-</A> +computing/ ) + +55% of American homes (62 Million) had a computer That has probably +increased. Homes with over $100,000 income had 95%. Now stats say this is +even higher in Germany, Korea and so forth. In 2002 according to OECD +figures the US was ninth of OECD nations + +Of the 112 million American homes therefore, how many had young families in +them? I'm not sure, but lets say that 40% have families, That's around 45 +million. + +Anyway you begin to get the picture that the "family" market is large and in +fact in the US alone is double the size of total linux installs. + + +Nothing I'm talking about is hypothetical, drive down any highway, turn on +your TV, open up Google. If you want to avoid being marketed to, switch off +your computer and go bush. The vast majority of the world is informed by +marketing. To do that a vast amount of research is carried out on a daily +basis, if you're willing to pay the money you can have that research delivered +to your inbox several hundred times a day from companies that do nothing else. +They prove consistently that what I'm talking about is correct + +In the years I was MD of my own company I would pay that money, not these days +because I'm retired but the point is I have 18 years of history in that role +and that informs what I am promoting here. + +Next, You make exactly the point I am trying to get across, you add or expand. +You provide the best possible fit to a particular market and then build your +brand outward from that, but start from a specific market. However what you +are advocating is what I call the subtractive method, you provide "everything +to all" and then you take away bits to suit individual markets, AKA "dumbing +down". That alienates your market, not the best policy. + +and last: Dismissing what I do as Mumble Jumble is neither accurate nor +helpful. My assertions are made based in empirical data collected over years +and continue to be collected in both statistics and market demographics, +that's science, the intuitive leap that addresses our marketing plan and +branding to a particular market, that's art. + + +><i> Of course, if you want to sell used cars ... +</I> +Sales is a different beast altogether, we're talking about marketing +Steve Jobs never sold a single ipod, but by really good marketing he created a +brand profile that allows the sales people to do their job. (Although having +said that there is good argument to be made that in some areas Apple's +marketing has sukt big time, but that's a whole new discussion :) ) + +Cheers +GL + +-- +Graham Lauder, +OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ +<A HREF="http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html">http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html</A> + +OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. + +INGOTs Assessor Trainer +(International Grades in Open Technologies) +www.theingots.org +-------------- next part -------------- +An HTML attachment was scrubbed... +URL: </pipermail/mageia-discuss/attachments/20101018/4237472f/attachment-0001.html> +</PRE> + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002452.html">[Mageia-discuss] rpm compatibility +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2454">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2454">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2454">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2454">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002455.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002455.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..33f6f6229 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002455.html @@ -0,0 +1,240 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3C201010181213.19774.yorick_%40openoffice.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002452.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002456.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection</H1> + <B>Graham Lauder</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3C201010181213.19774.yorick_%40openoffice.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection">yorick_ at openoffice.org + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 18 01:13:19 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002452.html">[Mageia-discuss] rpm compatibility +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002456.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2455">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2455">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2455">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2455">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Apologies I had to truncate this a bit, it got booted to moderation cos it was +to big! :) + + +On Sunday 17 Oct 2010 20:43:41 andré wrote: +><i> Graham Lauder a écrit : +</I>><i> > On Thursday 14 Oct 2010 06:39:32 Wolfgang Bornath wrote: +</I>><i> >> 2010/10/13 Marc Paré<<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">marc at marcpare.com</A>>: +</I> +><i> >>> This is not a case of branding a targeted group at this point but the +</I>><i> >>> overall flavour of the Mageia brand. +</I>><i> >> +</I>><i> >> Uh, sorry, I thought he wrote "identifying target markets", may be I +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Indeed he did +</I> +Indeed I did, but to create a brand, you need to identify target markets. +There could be dozens and in fact I've identified about six that I think that +we could be successful in. That does not mean we somehow automatically +exclude all others, but identifying them means we can shape our brand to suit. + +Right now, after discussions, our initial target market is likely to be a +technical market to expand our contributor community. This market is +completely different from the "Family" market that seemed to upset so many +people, so the branding for these two groups is likely to be completely +different. Our work continues. + + +><i> > Ack and I swore I wasn't going to get into this discussion again because +</I>><i> > it's like talking to a brick wall ... +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Excuse us if we have the same impression +</I> +My problem was that I am only one person, I figured that having to come back +to the lists and explain myself repeatedly is not a profitable (for Mageia) +use of my time. It appears however that I'm going to have to make the effort +and I apologise for my shortness. + +[....] +><i> Somehow you sound like you think you that Mageia can be marketed like +</I>><i> cosmetics. +</I>><i> This isn't fantasy island. And Linux and computers aren't gimmicks. +</I> +I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion, marketing is not fantasy, quite +the opposite. The reason that the successful companies are successful is +because of marketing. They do their market research, they come to conclusions +which inform their marketing plan and they Brand to suit. + +[.....] +><i> Sure. Their target market is anyone who thinks that they might want a +</I>><i> computer. Or any company that might want to sell one. And the many +</I>><i> thousands of politicians easily swayed by campaign contributions ... +</I>><i> (It worked in Massachusetts.) +</I> +One of MS's advantages is they are established as a virtual monopoly. They +started off with a very tight target market, a market of one: IBM. Then they +expanded to young techie users, then educational institutions but all along +their main marketing thrust was B2B. Their idea was to create software that +allowed hardware manufacturers to add value to their hardware and they +expanded their market from that. Unfortunately for us, They did things really +well in a relatively new market and as a consequence they have managed to +virtually monopolise that market and so the same path is not open to us. +However we can learn from what they did and expanding from a focused market is +one way of doing that. Of course we don't have the financial resources of an +MS or a CocaCola. + +And don't get me started on Massachusetts. :) + +[....] +><i> > Now does that mean we are restricting the market, of course not. Apple's +</I>><i> > target is young, high disposable income, singles. To me that's obvious +</I>><i> > and I could prove that, but I was told that "Apple Targets everyone" +</I>><i> > ???? naturally by someone in that demographic. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Hate to burst your bubble, but in Canada Apple computers biggest market +</I>><i> penetration is post-secondary students - not exactly a high income group. +</I> +It's OK my bubble is intact. :) Secondary students are in fact in this +group, because they tend to be financed by their parents, hence "disposable +income". I'm a parent, any money I give to my kids is disposed of. ;) Also +the demographic is aspirational, so the tendency is for this younger group to +act in a fashion that fits the demographic that they aspire to. + +><i> +</I>><i> > Marketing is not witchcraft or voodoo, it's a science and an art form. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Make up your mind - is it a science, or an art form ? +</I>><i> It can't be both. +</I> +You obviously haven't read Richard Dawkins, :) +<A HREF="http://bigthink.com/ideas/17063">http://bigthink.com/ideas/17063</A> + Many of the greatest scientists were artists, DaVinci and Newton just off the +top of my head. + + +[....] + +><i> > Really, at this point we have a lot of work to do before we define or +</I>><i> > even identify our target market. When we get to that point any realistic +</I>><i> > positive alternatives will be well received. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> If Mageia restricts itself to one target market, that's not going to help. +</I>><i> It needs to reach out in many directions, with many focuses. +</I>><i> It won't survive without an active contributing community, which means +</I>><i> in the near and medium term, appealing to current Mandriva users and +</I>><i> contributors. +</I>><i> One can *add* various targets, but to centre everything around a +</I>><i> hypothetical, unproven target is suicide. And no amount of marketing +</I>><i> mumble jumble will change that. +</I> +OK a few things, Linux in all colours is already restricted to 1.5% of the +market, can't get more restricted that. According to the latest Distrowatch +stats there are 317 Linux distributions sharing that 1.5%. Arguably around +80% is shared amongst the top 10. There are 1.5 billion computers out there +give or take, so approx. 22.5 million on linux. Of the remaining 1.47 +billion, how many do you think are in homes with families. + +In 2003 according to US stats +(<A HREF="http://maisonbisson.com/blog/post/11088/us-census-on-internet-access-and-">http://maisonbisson.com/blog/post/11088/us-census-on-internet-access-and-</A> +computing/ ) + +55% of American homes (62 Million) had a computer That has probably +increased. Homes with over $100,000 income had 95%. Now stats say this is +even higher in Germany, Korea and so forth. In 2002 according to OECD +figures the US was ninth of OECD nations + +Of the 112 million American homes therefore, how many had young families in +them? I'm not sure, but lets say that 40% have families, That's around 45 +million. + +Anyway you begin to get the picture that the "family" market is large and in +fact in the US alone is double the size of total linux installs. + + +Nothing I'm talking about is hypothetical, drive down any highway, turn on +your TV, open up Google. If you want to avoid being marketed to, switch off +your computer and go bush. The vast majority of the world is informed by +marketing. To do that a vast amount of research is carried out on a daily +basis, if you're willing to pay the money you can have that research delivered +to your inbox several hundred times a day from companies that do nothing else. +They prove consistently that what I'm talking about is correct + +In the years I was MD of my own company I would pay that money, not these days +because I'm retired but the point is I have 18 years of history in that role +and that informs what I am promoting here. + +Next, You make exactly the point I am trying to get across, you add or expand. +You provide the best possible fit to a particular market and then build your +brand outward from that, but start from a specific market. However what you +are advocating is what I call the subtractive method, you provide "everything +to all" and then you take away bits to suit individual markets, AKA "dumbing +down". That alienates your market, not the best policy. + +and last: Dismissing what I do as Mumble Jumble is neither accurate nor +helpful. My assertions are made based in empirical data collected over years +and continue to be collected in both statistics and market demographics, +that's science, the intuitive leap that addresses our marketing plan and +branding to a particular market, that's art. + + +><i> Of course, if you want to sell used cars ... +</I> +Sales is a different beast altogether, we're talking about marketing +Steve Jobs never sold a single ipod, but by really good marketing he created a +brand profile that allows the sales people to do their job. (Although having +said that there is good argument to be made that in some areas Apple's +marketing has sukt big time, but that's a whole new discussion :) ) + +Cheers +GL + +-- +Graham Lauder, +OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ +<A HREF="http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html">http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html</A> + +OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. + +INGOTs Assessor Trainer +(International Grades in Open Technologies) +www.theingots.org +-------------- next part -------------- +An HTML attachment was scrubbed... +URL: </pipermail/mageia-discuss/attachments/20101018/eebda381/attachment-0001.html> +</PRE> + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002452.html">[Mageia-discuss] rpm compatibility +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002456.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2455">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2455">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2455">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2455">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002456.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002456.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..c5d4938c4 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002456.html @@ -0,0 +1,117 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3C201010181233.43641.yorick_%40openoffice.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002455.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002457.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection</H1> + <B>Graham Lauder</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3C201010181233.43641.yorick_%40openoffice.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection">yorick_ at openoffice.org + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 18 01:33:43 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002455.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002457.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2456">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2456">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2456">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2456">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>On Saturday 16 Oct 2010 03:43:42 Ahmad Samir wrote: +><i> On 15 October 2010 16:22, Marcello Anni <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">marcello.anni at alice.it</A>> wrote: +</I>><i> >> I don't think any respectable Linux distro should go the Ubuntu way in +</I>><i> >> the branding part. Promoting ourselves as just "Mageia" not as +</I>><i> >> "Mageia, a Linux distro", even implicitly, is just wrong. People who +</I>><i> >> contribute to the FOSS world still have ethics and "values" to uphold. +</I>><i> >> I don't care if it's commercially successful or not, and we _can be a +</I>><i> >> successful Linux distro_. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > i'd prefer a user that chooses mageia as it is and then he becomes +</I>><i> > interested in linux and in its community (and values) than considering +</I>><i> > mageia as a linux distro and not to trying it as he thinks it is too +</I>><i> > diffult... do you agree? +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > Marcello +</I>><i> +</I>><i> It's the other way around, the user is interested in Linux, for whatever +</I>><i> reason: - economical, he can't afford windows +</I>><i> - usability, he's tired of fixing his windows boxes... etc +</I>><i> - ideological, he wants to use free open source software +</I> +That is in fact a demographic, the dissatisfied Windows Power user. But it's +a very small one. And in fact the "Linux Seeker" let's call her, will get +that Mageia is Linux without needing to be told blatantly in the branding. + +The problem with the Linux brand for the unsophisticated End User is that it +is seen as a geek only toy and so for a large proportion of the market it is +seen as a disincentive ie: "It's too complicated" + +What I would like to see is Users "Discover" Linux through Mageia. IOW +install it, it does all they want it to do and then they discover it's linux. +Two good things about this. +One: it gives the user a buzz, because she suddenly discovers "Wow I can use +that complicated Linux Thing" +Two: It means her horizons are broadened because now she can look at other +Linuxes in a different light +><i> +</I>><i> then he looks for a distro and start using it. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Of course seeing an OS on a friend's machine may be an incentive to +</I>><i> give that "thing" a shot, but he should know what he's about to use. +</I> +That's a "Close Community Network" Windows has it and it's the thing that +Ubuntu have built so well and it's why I saw the family thing as a good target +because a Family is the smallest "Close Community Network" + + +Cheers +GL +-- +Graham Lauder, +OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ +<A HREF="http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html">http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html</A> + +OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. + +INGOTs Assessor Trainer +(International Grades in Open Technologies) +www.theingots.org +</PRE> + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002455.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002457.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2456">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2456">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2456">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2456">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002457.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002457.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..bd2a452c2 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002457.html @@ -0,0 +1,139 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3C201010181320.07174.yorick_%40openoffice.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002456.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002467.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection</H1> + <B>Graham Lauder</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3C201010181320.07174.yorick_%40openoffice.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection">yorick_ at openoffice.org + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 18 02:20:07 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002456.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002467.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2457">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2457">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2457">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2457">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>On Sunday 17 Oct 2010 21:20:48 Renaud MICHEL wrote: +><i> On dimanche 17 octobre 2010 at 03:11, LinuxBSDos.com wrote : +</I>><i> > It's this idea of "community" that has been the bane of virtually all +</I>><i> > Linux distributions. It's part of the reason that we have failed to +</I>><i> > conquer the desktop. If Android were a "community" mobile distribution, +</I>><i> > it would not be in the position that it currently occupies. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > Instead of focusing on the needs of the community, why not start thinking +</I>><i> > of building a distribution for main stream users. Think about how +</I>><i> > successful companies design their products. Think about what has made +</I>><i> > Apple so successful. It's vision and foresight. It's knowing what people +</I>><i> > need and building it, before they even realize that they need it. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > The whole idea of listening to thousands of opinions on how a +</I>><i> > distribution should be designed stymies real progress, especially when +</I>><i> > most of those opinions are not based on a real understanding of the +</I>><i> > subject matter. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > You get a group of people who have a certain degree of expertize in their +</I>><i> > field, and get them to design and build a product. In this particular +</I>><i> > case it should be very easy. Just look around. There are hundreds of +</I>><i> > distributions that we can co-opt features from and then make them better. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Contrary to android and macos (and mandriva) which are backed by +</I>><i> enterprises, mageia is a community project. +</I>><i> So if you throw away the community, there is nothing left. +</I> +No one is advocating throwing away the community, but being part of a +community has it's issues, decision making speed is one of them. In a +corporate environment people are hired to do a particular job, they are hired +for their expertise in their field and they, for that reason, have the major +in any policy in their particular area of responsibility. However in a +Community based OSS project everybody has the opportunity to have their say +and that can lead to conflict, god knows I sometimes just shout at the screen: +"JUST LET ME DO MY JOB, I HAPPEN TO BE GOOD AT IT!!" and yea I can be a bit +forceful at times. :D + +However, it is healthy and it's a strength that Corporates don't have. +Anybody who's been on big development projects will be able to rant long and +Loud about those F**** marketing guys keep changing the spec and we're going +way over budget and I'm going to...[insert mutilation of choice]..to those +a@%*holes. + +Well this Marketing/Training guy, often says the same thing about Project +Managers. :/ A good project manager is gift from the gods, because he has a +wide open communication track with HR and Marketing because he realises that +Users aren't developers, and the gets market research and User experience +surveys done before the project starts. All too rare sometimes I think. An +RFP or spec often gets written with no consideration other than scratching the +Writers itch and the problems start. However that's another treatise +entirely! :) + +The point is that sometimes it's better to step back and say "OK, this isn't +my field, let the guys whose field it is get on with it." Let me stress +however the sometimes and definitely not always. + +Now in the Mageia Marketing group we have Teachers with deep pedagogical +knowledge, we have Marketers and Communications people who are bloody good at +what they do, who have been involved in marketing FOSS projects for years +right up to and including a PHD in FOSS marketing. I hold it up as a huge +privilege to work with this group of excellent people, and guess what, we are +a community, a community with a shared goal, to market Mageia in the best way +we know how. + +I look to the Founders, I look at our Marketing team and I look at the wider +contributing community and I seriously believe that if Redmond isn't quaking +in it's boots it should be. + +Cheers +GL + + +-- +Graham Lauder, +OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ +<A HREF="http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html">http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html</A> + +OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. + +INGOTs Assessor Trainer +(International Grades in Open Technologies) +www.theingots.org +</PRE> + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002456.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002467.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2457">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2457">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2457">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2457">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002458.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002458.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..27b07506b --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002458.html @@ -0,0 +1,63 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] translation of the FAQ from English to Portuguese, + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20translation%20of%20the%20FAQ%20from%20English%20to%0A%09Portuguese%2C%20&In-Reply-To=%3C201010180259.55526.terraagua%40gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002467.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002459.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] translation of the FAQ from English to Portuguese, </H1> + <B>MacXi</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20translation%20of%20the%20FAQ%20from%20English%20to%0A%09Portuguese%2C%20&In-Reply-To=%3C201010180259.55526.terraagua%40gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] translation of the FAQ from English to Portuguese, ">terraagua at gmail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 18 06:59:55 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002467.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002459.html">[Mageia-discuss] [Mageia-announce] Home Sweet Home! +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2458">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2458">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2458">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2458">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Em Dom 17 Out 2010, às 18:39:51, Anne nicolas escreveu: +><i> Damien will see with you so that you can publish directly on pt_BR blog +</I>><i> Cheers +</I> + +Ok Anne, Thanks +</PRE> + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002467.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002459.html">[Mageia-discuss] [Mageia-announce] Home Sweet Home! +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2458">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2458">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2458">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2458">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002459.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002459.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..2a7440c5a --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002459.html @@ -0,0 +1,67 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] [Mageia-announce] Home Sweet Home! + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20%5BMageia-announce%5D%20Home%20Sweet%20Home%21&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTinY-DPKG9SG73%3DZB2zZLkP%2Bvor%2BZ-346sdr58RE%40mail.gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002458.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002460.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] [Mageia-announce] Home Sweet Home!</H1> + <B>Ahmad Samir</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20%5BMageia-announce%5D%20Home%20Sweet%20Home%21&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTinY-DPKG9SG73%3DZB2zZLkP%2Bvor%2BZ-346sdr58RE%40mail.gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] [Mageia-announce] Home Sweet Home!">ahmadsamir3891 at gmail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 18 08:02:43 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002458.html">[Mageia-discuss] translation of the FAQ from English to Portuguese, +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002460.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2459">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2459">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2459">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2459">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>On 15 October 2010 15:16, Vincent <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">general_2_4 at yahoo.fr</A>> wrote: +><i>  i wish unuscribe please +</I>><i> +</I> +To manage your subscription go to +<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss</A> +at the bottom of the page there's a section where you can unsubscribe. + +-- +Ahmad Samir +</PRE> + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002458.html">[Mageia-discuss] translation of the FAQ from English to Portuguese, +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002460.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2459">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2459">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2459">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2459">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002460.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002460.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..8d352196c --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002460.html @@ -0,0 +1,162 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTikfn%3DSYpYC1ipr3G%3Di1bdPV3H44CX6r9Fb2u0Rk%40mail.gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002459.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002461.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection</H1> + <B>Romain d'Alverny</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTikfn%3DSYpYC1ipr3G%3Di1bdPV3H44CX6r9Fb2u0Rk%40mail.gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection">rdalverny at gmail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 18 11:31:33 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002459.html">[Mageia-discuss] [Mageia-announce] Home Sweet Home! +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002461.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2460">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2460">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2460">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2460">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 22:26, Fernando Parra <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">gato2707 at yahoo.com.mx</A>> wrote: +><i> +</I>><i> I agree with this POV, Our main goal must be capture as many as possible non-linux users, no cannibalize the same linux users from other distros. +</I> +Well, no, it's not, either way. + +(at this stage or it would be as a side effect) + +Please, let's focus. + +Mageia.org main goal is to build a community revolving around an +ambitious, great Free Software project, empowering back all +contributing people/companies (relationships, skills, knowledge, new +appetites, technologies, products). + +Here and now, it is a Linux distribution - and that's something really +large; right now, it is building and releasing a Linux distribution +from a technical and process point of view (before December) and +preparing coming February FOSDEM. + +Building this progressively with sound and efficient processes, plus +attracting great contributors is the mean by which we can make +something great and enjoy it. That's not a guarantee but a +requirement. + +Attracting a lot of users is a consequence of... well, many things, +some of which we can influence on. Partly through our contributors. +It's somehow a goal as well to grow our user base, in that we hope +that what will be built will be useful and liberating to many. + +Targetting such a very specific set of users may be done later, if +it's not designed within the initial roadmap, either through a +specific community initiative, either through a specific company that +builds partly on that (say, a derivative from - or complement for - +the Mageia main release). And such a specific initiative may or may +not be of use to upgrade the next roadmap of the project (that's how +we can expect several teams contributions to integrate into the main +release anyway). + + +Note that it's not a matter of marketing versus developers or users +versus packagers here. It's a matter of who gives the direction and +coordinates. No team takes precedence over another, Council and Board +being here to articulate the whole thing, vetting proposals from here +and there. + +Yes, teams and people making them are excellent (so we expect); yes, +teams proposals/works may be excellent. No, that won't prevent us to +say no to great work or great people, if it does not fit. + + +><i> What should we do? Whatever it takes! (According to our values) +</I> +Your sentence may just be equivocal - so, just to make sure... Mageia +values barely promote a "whatever it takes" attitude. ;-) + + +Anyway, I repeat here what I wrote above in other words: + + * first marketing effort to be here is _not_ defining what type(s) of +specific users we would target or package the product for; a product +that is not yet even built: "1. bake some cake you like; 2. present it +to others; 3. learn from that; 4. repeat"; + + * first marketing effort to be is toward the contributors community +(development, packaging, design, translation, qa, doc, triage, users +return & feedback, communication, marketing, facilitators); first has +been the announcement, about one month ago; next has been the values +publication; next are the logo/identity ideas around that we expect to +focus, next are the mission, vision, roadmap docs, missions for each +team as soon as we setup collaboration platforms; that takes time, +attitude, determination, adjustments; + + * if this effort can not be properly accomplished with and toward +existing contributors, nothing else planned may ever make potential +contributors tick, even less end users; moreover, it would fail at its +most critical role: educating all contributors about marketing pieces +relevant to them and to the project; + + * we take the following approach: + - we first design and release prototypes for ourselves, with high +enough expectations to go forward; + - we try/find good experiments to understand if that matches other +people needs or expectations and how; + - so we refine and deliver; + - iterate. + +We won't build the project identity and roadmap at once; it will +always be an iterative process that will consolidate. Our identity +won't be so much from what we planned it to be than from what we +deliver and how we do it, over time. + +That doesn't prevent listening, analyzing and drafting things in +relation to users (and including them actively in the iteration +process), that just means that we have to spend a few months to build +and to learn about ourselves before we can only expect to +learn/project about others (such as target users we don't have a +single consistent clue about but disparate opinions on, see previous +discussions about targetting users). + + + +Cheers, + +Romain +</PRE> + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002459.html">[Mageia-discuss] [Mageia-announce] Home Sweet Home! +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002461.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2460">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2460">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2460">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2460">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002461.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002461.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..c8ca9b739 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002461.html @@ -0,0 +1,67 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTikbetf_nx0_DSRbz_LkwQLmJ15TDS2ns%3D%3DhAKjA%40mail.gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002460.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002462.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection</H1> + <B>Wolfgang Bornath</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTikbetf_nx0_DSRbz_LkwQLmJ15TDS2ns%3D%3DhAKjA%40mail.gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection">molch.b at googlemail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 18 11:43:07 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002460.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002462.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2461">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2461">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2461">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2461">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>2010/10/18 Romain d'Alverny <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">rdalverny at gmail.com</A>>: +><i> +</I>><i> Please, let's focus. +</I>><i> ......... +</I> +IMHO this is the best possible reflection on the task at hand, so we +should step back from previous detailed discussions and see what we +have under the light of Romain's "first roadmap". + +Thx +</PRE> + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002460.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002462.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2461">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2461">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2461">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2461">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002462.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002462.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..2912807f7 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002462.html @@ -0,0 +1,187 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3C4CBC6761.3080502%40roadrunner.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002461.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002463.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection</H1> + <B>Frank Griffin</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3C4CBC6761.3080502%40roadrunner.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection">ftg at roadrunner.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 18 17:27:29 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002461.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002463.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2462">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2462">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2462">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2462">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Gustavo Giampaoli wrote: +><i> So, I'm sorry but I agree with the people who want to target this +</I>><i> "ordinary people". Because I don't think that making Mageia easier and +</I>><i> friendly hurt or damage advanced users. Linux will be always powerful, +</I>><i> with the right packages. And any advanced user can make "urpmi +</I>><i> my-advanced-packages" whenever he/she needs. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> We need to attract more non-linux users. +</I>><i> +</I> +This is getting very repetitive. Your argument, and the arguments of +those who argue your point of view all make perfect sense and flow +logically, *IF* you accept the premise that the mission of Mageia is to +entice computer-ignorant or computer-antagonistic people, or even just +non-linux newbies, to use Mageia. + +This *might* be a given if Mageia was a company organized to make a +profit. But it's not. It's a group of primarily technical people who +decided to fork Mandriva because they felt that the technical excellence +of the distro was being compromised by Mandriva's corporate goals. + +In a perfect world, where volunteer labor was in infinite supply, and +was paid solely in terms of satisfaction that what they achieved met +their own goals, a community distro would be built up of layers, each +building on the ones below it. + +Developers would not need to care about appealing to users on any level +other than providing needed function. They would produce non-GUI +components which had enough configurable options to satisfy anyone from +your grandma to Linus Torvalds. + +Other developers who were so inclined would write GUI interfaces to +these services which exposed all of this flexibility, or most of it, or +some of it, or very little of it, depending on whether they were +producing a UI aimed at Linus or grandma or someone in between. + +The same would go for installs: the base install would be componentized +and configurable and open, and interested parties would customize this +for a variety of target audiences. + +The FOSS world isn't perfect, but only in the sense that the volunteer +labor supply isn't infinite. Without an infinite supply, the activities +that don't get performed for resource reasons will be determined by the +satisfaction metric - if the target audience isn't important enough to +some group of technical people to impel them to customize a UI and an +install (and documentation) for that target audience, then that audience +won't see their needs addressed. + +In the corporate world, you have to make a profit. Because you have +limited resources, and because you can't risk basing your enterprise on +packages you don't control, you have to address all of the above tasks +with a finite pool of resources. + +Because of that, you can't afford to design your distro to be +configurable and flexible enough to even *potentially* please every set +of target users. Since the number of target user groups determines the +amount of resource you need to satisfy them, it follows that you have to +limit that number in order to satisfy your chosen group or groups with +the resources you can afford. + +This is where marketing becomes invaluable; it uses quantitative +analyses to determine which target group(s) represent the greatest +potential for profit, and the result of those analyses will determine +what development works on, what the tools look like, and what the +install looks like. + +If you accept that the marketing results must be correct, then it makes +no sense for development to build flexibility into software that will +never be used, or for the install team to allow for any install paradigm +that isn't directly oriented to your target user groups. Basically, +marketing drives the truck, and every group associated with production +centers their activity on marketing's objectives. + +This minimizes development costs, and will produce the greatest profit +from the number of sales made. Developers are hired to do only that +work that supports marketing's directives, and the theory is that they +work primarily for the money. They are controlled by Marketing, which +derives its authority from the owners or shareholders ("stakeholders" to +use the fashionable economics term). + +***That said***,,, + +Mageia is not a company. We have no shareholders, and no financial hold +over the developers. No marketing group has directorial authority over +the developers, because there is no "stakeholder" group which can grant +that authority. No number of users suborned from Windows or Mac or +Ubuntu puts a penny into the pockets of anyone involved in Mageia. + +Saying "we believe that a large number of users will switch to Mageia if +we limit our focus to such-and-such" is interesting and may even be +accurate. It is also immaterial, unless the validity of the statement +somehow gives you the authority to direct the actions of the others +involved in Mageia. + +In FOSS, it doesn't. If enough people agree with your objective, you +may find that you have enough critical mass to produce a derived distro +with a face and personality which matches your objectives. + +But to say that the entire community has to direct and/or limit their +efforts to your target group just because you can demonstrate that you +can wean them away from some other product ignores the fact that such a +goal may give no or even negative satisfaction to those expected to do +the technical work. That's not to say that they dispute your skills in +determining a target market, but simply that they derive no satisfaction +in doing or limiting their work to address that market. + +Graham is fond of saying that "you can't be all things to all people", +but that's only true in the area of the spectrum where his skills come +into play. + +In development, the entire concept of Software Architecture and +Component-Driven design is directed towards producing components with +enough flexibility to be configured for any possible use of the +functionality represented by that component. When not constrained by +the profit motive, development will produce flexible and adaptable +components, and rely on upstream integrators to tailor or limit their +function to a particular market. + +In reality, this often aligns with the profit motive, since (oh horrors) +it actually may happen that Marketing is wrong, in which case the +company is at least left with saleable software assets as opposed to +software locked into a vision which didn't work. + +The significant costs of trying to be all things to all people, both in +resource cost and opportunity cost, come much further up the product +development chain, in QA, documentation, marketing, sales focus, and +other such non-development areas. That's where you have to decide which +way(s) to go, to the exclusion of others, not at the development layer. + + +</PRE> + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002461.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002463.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2462">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2462">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2462">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2462">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002463.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002463.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..019e08f79 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002463.html @@ -0,0 +1,69 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTinBk6m%2BWo%2BB-pA8BPH%3DmbxU3WfesGM-Pd6hF2rh%40mail.gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002462.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002464.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection</H1> + <B>Hoyt Duff</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTinBk6m%2BWo%2BB-pA8BPH%3DmbxU3WfesGM-Pd6hF2rh%40mail.gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection">hoytduff at gmail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 18 17:44:57 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002462.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002464.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2463">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2463">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2463">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2463">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Frank Griffin <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">ftg at roadrunner.com</A>> wrote: + +><i> The significant costs of trying to be all things to all people, +</I> +This is the biggest danger to any distro.and had, I believe, a +significant part in Mandriva's struggles. It seems to me that the +Mageia devs want to get back to their Mandrake roots. + +BTW, nicely formed argument, Frank. + +-- +Hoyt +</PRE> + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002462.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002464.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2463">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2463">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2463">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2463">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002464.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002464.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..4b9a90c39 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002464.html @@ -0,0 +1,110 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTin8FwPQONpp7PHy%2BtWxN0V_FXCpMVHqCW21faKM%40mail.gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002463.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002471.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection</H1> + <B>Wolfgang Bornath</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTin8FwPQONpp7PHy%2BtWxN0V_FXCpMVHqCW21faKM%40mail.gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection">molch.b at googlemail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 18 18:13:08 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002463.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002471.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2464">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2464">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2464">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2464">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>2010/10/18 Hoyt Duff <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">hoytduff at gmail.com</A>>: +><i> On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Frank Griffin <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">ftg at roadrunner.com</A>> wrote: +</I>><i> +</I>>><i> The significant costs of trying to be all things to all people, +</I>><i> +</I>><i> This is the biggest danger to any distro.and had, I believe, a +</I>><i> significant part in Mandriva's struggles. It seems to me that the +</I>><i> Mageia devs want to get back to their Mandrake roots. +</I> +I do not think so, the quality of the product had nothing to do with +Mandriva's problems. In most of Mandriva's problems marketing at least +played a leading role. + +First bad marketing: +When Mandrakesoft was a successful startup it had no real marketing +which would influence the development. Then the investors came in and +brought in the real marketing, people of which never heard about Linux +distributions before, so it seemed. They based the wrong management +decisions on bad marketing advices, burning mountains of money with +fruitless attempts in sidetracks of the Linux world. When that led to +the near crash those people were thrown out and Mandrakesoft +propagated a "Back to the roots" strategy as a Linux distributor. +Which was successful enough to carry them out of chapter 11. + +Then lack of marketing: +But maybe this experience led them to the other extreme: They started +to ignore the basic rules of marketing. Be present, be visible, make +noise about yourself, make people looking forward to the next news +about your brand, and in consequence make your name/brand a known part +of the computer world. They ignored all this, shut down PR almost +entirely and where they did something in the way of PR it was badly +done because marketing (or the store) did something without notifying +the other departments (remember the instant-on desaster). Or they sold +cheap machines with Mandrakelinux pre-installed without making sure +that this pre-installation was done correctly (as happened with the +deal with Walmart). Or they propagated deals worldwide where the +customer could never benefit from because the hardware was sold in +France only. Or they refused to pay a couple of hundred Euros for +travelling expenses while they could have had an otherwise cost free +roadshow all over Switzerland (courtesy of Jäggi book store chain and +wobo). I can easily fill several pages with such examples. + +The Mandriva story is a perfect example of the two extremes: bad +marketing and almost no marketing at all. +But all that was not related to the development and/or other technical +parts of the company. + +><i> BTW, nicely formed argument, Frank. +</I> +Agreed, 100% ! +-- +wobo +</PRE> + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002463.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002471.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2464">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2464">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2464">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2464">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002465.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002465.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..1e3335033 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002465.html @@ -0,0 +1,118 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Positive%20Reinforcement&In-Reply-To=%3C1287425965.3843.79.camel%40access.dscvcp.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002471.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002466.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement</H1> + <B>George J. Walsh</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Positive%20Reinforcement&In-Reply-To=%3C1287425965.3843.79.camel%40access.dscvcp.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement">gjwalsh at dscvcp.org + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 18 20:19:25 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002471.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002466.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2465">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2465">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2465">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2465">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>I have been diligently following the ongoing discussions about future +directions, marketing approaches and technical support, most definitely +the insightful exchanges with Frank Griffin and Graham Lauder. + +As briefly as possible, I'd like to suggest that some of us are perhaps +losing sight of what we really have with the existing Mandriva distro as +a jumping off point. + +I spent a good portion of September installing and re-installing several +distros from scratch to see for myself where they stood. (I was running +a bit scared, I'll admit, so it was due diligence to ensure I had a plan +B were Mandriva to disappear.) For my development work in counselling +psychology, I use a server to provide our own sendmail, apache, php and +postgresql services. But I ALSO use the GNOME desktop not just for the +usual mail traffic and web browsing but as the front-end for all the web +development tools we also utilize. + +This makes a lot of sense in my case, true, but also for small business +generally. It is the simple, if not ideal, combination of the desktop +with a server as such. Mandriva never had a problem with that. Seems to +me, with the exception of commercial game-playing stuff, I come close to +having 'all things for all people'. You can't do this easily or directly +with Open Suse, nor with Fedora. I suspect that is because both are +subtly laid out to ensnare you in a money upgrade. Mandriva, by way of +contrast, selects and updates a kernel-server for my needs. No fuss, no +muss. At the time, neither of those distros had a FUNCTIONING equivalent +to our cooker. Fedora is all business and has heaps of documentation +support but I found it easier to work with the command line. Open Suse, +on the other hand, has endless detailed menus which, I suppose, is an +attempt to look like Windows. Impressed initially by the scope of what +was available, I quickly became lost in the visual congestion. I'm the +kind of guy who finds it far, far easier to write some script for rsync +backups rather than deal with the tedious and not overly transparent +form-filling required by luckybackup, by way of example. I'm not a +script fiend, I just like a natural choice between gui and command line. +Mandriva has always inherently provided me with that. + +I spent considerable time trying to be objective about Ubuntu, but I +admit to having been heavily biased by negative reviews of Ubuntu as a +server. I also installed BSD and, if I had to stop at this point and +Mageia were not to become reality, then that is where I would go. Kind +of felt like the old UNIX days, but there was something else I learned +from a rather non-productive month. + +When we are successful forking Mageia as a community, we will have +removed the manipulative, hidden agendas of SUSE, Red Hat and Ubuntu. We +will have the best opportunity to fulfill the original dream behind what +is now Linux. As is so often the case in human history, the tools we +already have in our toolbox are just waiting to be made use of. The +present world has become so cynical that it cannot conceive of something +'free' having any value. That is one of the unintended results of +aggressive marketing. Yet in the end real value, as opposed to monetary +value will stand the test of time. Linux, is still 'a kid'. Lets show +this 'kid' the mature patient nurturing it needs to reach even some of +its astonishing potential. At all costs, let us all endeavour NOT to +repeat recent history still again. + +My best to all ... + +George +</PRE> + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002471.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002466.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2465">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2465">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2465">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2465">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002466.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002466.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..b86f1d82b --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002466.html @@ -0,0 +1,83 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Positive%20Reinforcement&In-Reply-To=%3Ci9i3rj%243bs%242%40dough.gmane.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002465.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002470.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement</H1> + <B>Marc Paré</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Positive%20Reinforcement&In-Reply-To=%3Ci9i3rj%243bs%242%40dough.gmane.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement">marc at marcpare.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 18 20:32:19 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002465.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002470.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2466">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2466">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2466">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2466">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE> +><i> When we are successful forking Mageia as a community, we will have +</I>><i> removed the manipulative, hidden agendas of SUSE, Red Hat and Ubuntu. We +</I>><i> will have the best opportunity to fulfill the original dream behind what +</I>><i> is now Linux. As is so often the case in human history, the tools we +</I>><i> already have in our toolbox are just waiting to be made use of. The +</I>><i> present world has become so cynical that it cannot conceive of something +</I>><i> 'free' having any value. That is one of the unintended results of +</I>><i> aggressive marketing. Yet in the end real value, as opposed to monetary +</I>><i> value will stand the test of time. Linux, is still 'a kid'. Lets show +</I>><i> this 'kid' the mature patient nurturing it needs to reach even some of +</I>><i> its astonishing potential. At all costs, let us all endeavour NOT to +</I>><i> repeat recent history still again. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> My best to all ... +</I>><i> +</I>><i> George +</I>><i> +</I> +So eloquently done and said. Many thanks for these words of wisdom. We +are/were in need of this. + +Marc + +</PRE> + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002465.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002470.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2466">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2466">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2466">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2466">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002467.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002467.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..9137ca2f5 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002467.html @@ -0,0 +1,133 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3C201010182101.14353.r.h.michel%2Bmageia%40gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002457.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002458.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection</H1> + <B>Renaud MICHEL</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3C201010182101.14353.r.h.michel%2Bmageia%40gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection">r.h.michel+mageia at gmail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 18 21:01:14 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002457.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002458.html">[Mageia-discuss] translation of the FAQ from English to Portuguese, +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2467">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2467">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2467">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2467">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>On lundi 18 octobre 2010 at 02:20, Graham Lauder wrote : +><i> On Sunday 17 Oct 2010 21:20:48 Renaud MICHEL wrote: +</I>><i> > Contrary to android and macos (and mandriva) which are backed by +</I>><i> > enterprises, mageia is a community project. +</I>><i> > So if you throw away the community, there is nothing left. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> No one is advocating throwing away the community, but being part of a +</I>><i> community has it's issues, decision making speed is one of them. +</I> +Yeah, it was a little exagerated, but that's how I understood the previous +post when he wrote + +><i> > On dimanche 17 octobre 2010 at 03:11, LinuxBSDos.com wrote : +</I>><i> > > Instead of focusing on the needs of the community, why not start +</I>><i> > > thinking of building a distribution for main stream users. +</I> +Because, if mageia would no care about my needs, I don't see why I would +contribute to it. +Because, beeing an egoist, I am willing to contribute first to have distro +that suits my needs (which mandriva does quite well), and only secondly to +have a distro that could fill most people needs (but that second point is +anyway very important for me!). + +><i> In a +</I>><i> corporate environment people are hired to do a particular job, they are +</I>><i> hired for their expertise in their field and they, for that reason, have +</I>><i> the major in any policy in their particular area of responsibility. +</I>><i> However in a Community based OSS project everybody has the opportunity +</I>><i> to have their say and that can lead to conflict, god knows I sometimes +</I>><i> just shout at the screen: "JUST LET ME DO MY JOB, I HAPPEN TO BE GOOD AT +</I>><i> IT!!" and yea I can be a bit forceful at times. :D +</I>><i> +</I>><i> However, it is healthy and it's a strength that Corporates don't have. +</I>><i> Anybody who's been on big development projects will be able to rant long +</I>><i> and Loud about those F**** marketing guys keep changing the spec and +</I>><i> we're going way over budget and I'm going to...[insert mutilation of +</I>><i> choice]..to those a@%*holes. +</I> +Yeah, I know that all too well... + +><i> Well this Marketing/Training guy, often says the same thing about Project +</I>><i> Managers. :/ A good project manager is gift from the gods, because he +</I>><i> has a wide open communication track with HR and Marketing because he +</I>><i> realises that Users aren't developers, and the gets market research and +</I>><i> User experience surveys done before the project starts. All too rare +</I>><i> sometimes I think. An RFP or spec often gets written with no +</I>><i> consideration other than scratching the Writers itch and the problems +</I>><i> start. However that's another treatise entirely! :) +</I>><i> +</I>><i> The point is that sometimes it's better to step back and say "OK, this +</I>><i> isn't my field, let the guys whose field it is get on with it." Let me +</I>><i> stress however the sometimes and definitely not always. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Now in the Mageia Marketing group we have Teachers with deep pedagogical +</I>><i> knowledge, we have Marketers and Communications people who are bloody +</I>><i> good at what they do, who have been involved in marketing FOSS projects +</I>><i> for years right up to and including a PHD in FOSS marketing. I hold it +</I>><i> up as a huge privilege to work with this group of excellent people, and +</I>><i> guess what, we are a community, a community with a shared goal, to +</I>><i> market Mageia in the best way we know how. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> I look to the Founders, I look at our Marketing team and I look at the +</I>><i> wider contributing community and I seriously believe that if Redmond +</I>><i> isn't quaking in it's boots it should be. +</I> +I am certainly in no position to give advices to the marketing team, and I +trust them in making a good job, as long as it doesn't dictate too much how +the development should be headed. + +Obviously, marketing and developers teams will have to communicate a lot. +The marketing guys telling to the devs which features are really needed to +have a wider audience, and the devs showing the marketing guys the great +features they are working on so that they can integrate it in their +communication. + +cheers +-- +Renaud Michel +</PRE> + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002457.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002458.html">[Mageia-discuss] translation of the FAQ from English to Portuguese, +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2467">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2467">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2467">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2467">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002468.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002468.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..f525ecb9a --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002468.html @@ -0,0 +1,65 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] The new Linux distributions timeline with Mageia + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20The%20new%20Linux%20distributions%20timeline%20with%20Mageia&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTinFVYuqRRahHwA6bEm8Cig01i3sBQ%3DSbFBAwuKo%40mail.gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002472.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002469.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] The new Linux distributions timeline with Mageia</H1> + <B>Dimitrios Glentadakis</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20The%20new%20Linux%20distributions%20timeline%20with%20Mageia&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTinFVYuqRRahHwA6bEm8Cig01i3sBQ%3DSbFBAwuKo%40mail.gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] The new Linux distributions timeline with Mageia">dglent at gmail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 18 21:04:11 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002472.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002469.html">[Mageia-discuss] rpm compatibility +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2468">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2468">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2468">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2468">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>The new Linux distribution timeline with Mageia +<A HREF="http://futurist.se/gldt/2010/10/10/gnulinux-distro-timeline-10-10/">http://futurist.se/gldt/2010/10/10/gnulinux-distro-timeline-10-10/</A> + + +-- +Dimitrios Glentadakis +</PRE> + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002472.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002469.html">[Mageia-discuss] rpm compatibility +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2468">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2468">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2468">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2468">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002469.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002469.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..5587921d2 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002469.html @@ -0,0 +1,75 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] rpm compatibility + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20rpm%20compatibility&In-Reply-To=%3C4CBCA69F.3090404%40arcor.de%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002468.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002473.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] rpm compatibility</H1> + <B>Florian Hubold</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20rpm%20compatibility&In-Reply-To=%3C4CBCA69F.3090404%40arcor.de%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] rpm compatibility">doktor5000 at arcor.de + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 18 21:57:19 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002468.html">[Mageia-discuss] The new Linux distributions timeline with Mageia +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002473.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2469">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2469">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2469">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2469">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE> Am 17.10.2010 20:46, schrieb Akshay Arora: +><i> Some related questions, +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Is there any interest/talk on, a supplemental one-click install like web +</I>><i> based system? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> What about an option for installing self contained packages like in macos or +</I>><i> <A HREF="klik://.">klik://.</A> +</I>Well, one-click install as in <A HREF="klik://,">klik://,</A> i hope not. That actually defeats what +most/all +distributions achieve using a package management system. Ie, not installing +(or compiling) wildly software like in windows. + +But, one-click install as in OpenSuse One-Click-Install, (or like it is already +done for repos at easyurpmi) definitely, that would be a nice addition +and generally a nice thing to have. +</PRE> + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002468.html">[Mageia-discuss] The new Linux distributions timeline with Mageia +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002473.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2469">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2469">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2469">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2469">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002470.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002470.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..813069daa --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002470.html @@ -0,0 +1,62 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Positive%20Reinforcement&In-Reply-To=%3C201010182158.36358.fri%40tribun.eu%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002466.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002472.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement</H1> + <B>Morgan Leijström</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Positive%20Reinforcement&In-Reply-To=%3C201010182158.36358.fri%40tribun.eu%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement">fri at tribun.eu + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 18 21:58:36 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002466.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002472.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2470">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2470">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2470">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2470">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Very well said, George. + +Thank you for sharing both your experiment and thoughts :) + +/Morgan +</PRE> + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002466.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002472.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2470">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2470">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2470">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2470">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002471.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002471.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..0cd2226c0 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002471.html @@ -0,0 +1,243 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3C201010190906.07966.yorick_%40openoffice.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002464.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002465.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection</H1> + <B>Graham Lauder</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3C201010190906.07966.yorick_%40openoffice.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection">yorick_ at openoffice.org + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 18 22:06:07 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002464.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002465.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2471">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2471">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2471">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2471">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>On Tuesday 19 Oct 2010 04:27:29 Frank Griffin wrote: +><i> Gustavo Giampaoli wrote: +</I>><i> > So, I'm sorry but I agree with the people who want to target this +</I>><i> > "ordinary people". Because I don't think that making Mageia easier and +</I>><i> > friendly hurt or damage advanced users. Linux will be always powerful, +</I>><i> > with the right packages. And any advanced user can make "urpmi +</I>><i> > my-advanced-packages" whenever he/she needs. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > We need to attract more non-linux users. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> This is getting very repetitive. Your argument, and the arguments of +</I>><i> those who argue your point of view all make perfect sense and flow +</I>><i> logically, *IF* you accept the premise that the mission of Mageia is to +</I>><i> entice computer-ignorant or computer-antagonistic people, or even just +</I>><i> non-linux newbies, to use Mageia. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> This *might* be a given if Mageia was a company organized to make a +</I>><i> profit. But it's not. It's a group of primarily technical people who +</I>><i> decided to fork Mandriva because they felt that the technical excellence +</I>><i> of the distro was being compromised by Mandriva's corporate goals. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> In a perfect world, where volunteer labor was in infinite supply, and +</I>><i> was paid solely in terms of satisfaction that what they achieved met +</I>><i> their own goals, a community distro would be built up of layers, each +</I>><i> building on the ones below it. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Developers would not need to care about appealing to users on any level +</I>><i> other than providing needed function. They would produce non-GUI +</I>><i> components which had enough configurable options to satisfy anyone from +</I>><i> your grandma to Linus Torvalds. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Other developers who were so inclined would write GUI interfaces to +</I>><i> these services which exposed all of this flexibility, or most of it, or +</I>><i> some of it, or very little of it, depending on whether they were +</I>><i> producing a UI aimed at Linus or grandma or someone in between. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> The same would go for installs: the base install would be componentized +</I>><i> and configurable and open, and interested parties would customize this +</I>><i> for a variety of target audiences. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> The FOSS world isn't perfect, but only in the sense that the volunteer +</I>><i> labor supply isn't infinite. Without an infinite supply, the activities +</I>><i> that don't get performed for resource reasons will be determined by the +</I>><i> satisfaction metric - if the target audience isn't important enough to +</I>><i> some group of technical people to impel them to customize a UI and an +</I>><i> install (and documentation) for that target audience, then that audience +</I>><i> won't see their needs addressed. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> In the corporate world, you have to make a profit. Because you have +</I>><i> limited resources, and because you can't risk basing your enterprise on +</I>><i> packages you don't control, you have to address all of the above tasks +</I>><i> with a finite pool of resources. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Because of that, you can't afford to design your distro to be +</I>><i> configurable and flexible enough to even *potentially* please every set +</I>><i> of target users. Since the number of target user groups determines the +</I>><i> amount of resource you need to satisfy them, it follows that you have to +</I>><i> limit that number in order to satisfy your chosen group or groups with +</I>><i> the resources you can afford. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> This is where marketing becomes invaluable; it uses quantitative +</I>><i> analyses to determine which target group(s) represent the greatest +</I>><i> potential for profit, and the result of those analyses will determine +</I>><i> what development works on, what the tools look like, and what the +</I>><i> install looks like. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> If you accept that the marketing results must be correct, then it makes +</I>><i> no sense for development to build flexibility into software that will +</I>><i> never be used, or for the install team to allow for any install paradigm +</I>><i> that isn't directly oriented to your target user groups. Basically, +</I>><i> marketing drives the truck, and every group associated with production +</I>><i> centers their activity on marketing's objectives. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> This minimizes development costs, and will produce the greatest profit +</I>><i> from the number of sales made. Developers are hired to do only that +</I>><i> work that supports marketing's directives, and the theory is that they +</I>><i> work primarily for the money. They are controlled by Marketing, which +</I>><i> derives its authority from the owners or shareholders ("stakeholders" to +</I>><i> use the fashionable economics term). +</I>><i> +</I>><i> ***That said***,,, +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Mageia is not a company. We have no shareholders, and no financial hold +</I>><i> over the developers. No marketing group has directorial authority over +</I>><i> the developers, because there is no "stakeholder" group which can grant +</I>><i> that authority. No number of users suborned from Windows or Mac or +</I>><i> Ubuntu puts a penny into the pockets of anyone involved in Mageia. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Saying "we believe that a large number of users will switch to Mageia if +</I>><i> we limit our focus to such-and-such" is interesting and may even be +</I>><i> accurate. It is also immaterial, unless the validity of the statement +</I>><i> somehow gives you the authority to direct the actions of the others +</I>><i> involved in Mageia. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> In FOSS, it doesn't. If enough people agree with your objective, you +</I>><i> may find that you have enough critical mass to produce a derived distro +</I>><i> with a face and personality which matches your objectives. +</I> +This is one of the interesting elements of FOSS marketing that I've talked +about in the past. That Marketing department, which in a corporate world +always has the ear of management more so than the Development people simply +because of human interaction capabilities, has to turn it's focus inward. The +problem is, an one I've been trying to avoid here, is that it becomes insular +to the exclusion of all else and then the community stagnates and spirals into +irrelevancy. For the community to grow there has to be a dynamism, (and I'm +talking grow in terms of the community of contributors) Userland is the big +billboard of that dynamism. Ubuntu for all it's faults and annoyances has +taught us one thing, high visibility in Userland attracts contributors. + +Now our problem in terms of a marketing group is to communicate that +particular thing to the core startup contributors and I don't mean the +Founders here, I mean that community that surrounded them at the start and who +shared the vision. + +Heh I was hoping to get the Values, Vision and mission sorted before having to +tackle that mission and on reflection I should have simply not have opened the +Target Markets discussion, but hey, in FOSS projects the thing you do is write +a to-do list, then throw it in the trash. + + +><i> +</I>><i> But to say that the entire community has to direct and/or limit their +</I>><i> efforts to your target group just because you can demonstrate that you +</I>><i> can wean them away from some other product ignores the fact that such a +</I>><i> goal may give no or even negative satisfaction to those expected to do +</I>><i> the technical work. That's not to say that they dispute your skills in +</I>><i> determining a target market, but simply that they derive no satisfaction +</I>><i> in doing or limiting their work to address that market. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Graham is fond of saying that "you can't be all things to all people", +</I>><i> but that's only true in the area of the spectrum where his skills come +</I>><i> into play. +</I> +True indeed + +><i> +</I>><i> In development, the entire concept of Software Architecture and +</I>><i> Component-Driven design is directed towards producing components with +</I>><i> enough flexibility to be configured for any possible use of the +</I>><i> functionality represented by that component. When not constrained by +</I>><i> the profit motive, development will produce flexible and adaptable +</I>><i> components, and rely on upstream integrators to tailor or limit their +</I>><i> function to a particular market. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> In reality, this often aligns with the profit motive, since (oh horrors) +</I>><i> it actually may happen that Marketing is wrong, +</I> +Ahem *cough* never yer honour... no really. ;) + +><i> in which case the +</I>><i> company is at least left with saleable software assets as opposed to +</I>><i> software locked into a vision which didn't work. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> The significant costs of trying to be all things to all people, both in +</I>><i> resource cost and opportunity cost, come much further up the product +</I>><i> development chain, in QA, documentation, marketing, sales focus, and +</I>><i> other such non-development areas. That's where you have to decide which +</I>><i> way(s) to go, to the exclusion of others, not at the development layer. +</I> +That's all an excellent analyses Frank. The question, regarding this last +statement had occurred to me and I'd wondered out loud about when considering +the multiple focused markets concept, this adds clarity, thanks . + +The decision has already been made that the initial target market will be new +code contributors. + +Your analysis is sound and I suspect that any research would simply confirm +that, so looking at that, the marketing focus that gradually expands outward +would seem to be the path that works best to achieve longevity of the project. + +I am mindful, however that many of those you talk about up the chain in the +"desperately needed" categories: Docs and QA will come from user space. So +there will be a need to market here in any case. + +Thanks and +Cheers +GL + +-- +Graham Lauder, +OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ +<A HREF="http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html">http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html</A> + +OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. + +INGOTs Assessor Trainer +(International Grades in Open Technologies) +www.theingots.org +</PRE> + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002464.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002465.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2471">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2471">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2471">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2471">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002472.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002472.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..6cb9b1458 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002472.html @@ -0,0 +1,62 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Positive%20Reinforcement&In-Reply-To=%3C1287437712.24170.15.camel%40localhost.localdomain%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002470.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002468.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement</H1> + <B>David Coulette</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Positive%20Reinforcement&In-Reply-To=%3C1287437712.24170.15.camel%40localhost.localdomain%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement">dcoulette at yahoo.fr + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 18 23:35:12 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002470.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002468.html">[Mageia-discuss] The new Linux distributions timeline with Mageia +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2472">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2472">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2472">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2472">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Thanks indeed for your refreshing comment. + +The recurrent use of the word "target" in some threads +had me thinking Mageai was going to be some kind of weapon. + + + +</PRE> + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002470.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002468.html">[Mageia-discuss] The new Linux distributions timeline with Mageia +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2472">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2472">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2472">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2472">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002473.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002473.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..25b47eb71 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/002473.html @@ -0,0 +1,65 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3C1287438049.24170.18.camel%40localhost.localdomain%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002469.html"> + + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection</H1> + <B>David Coulette</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3C1287438049.24170.18.camel%40localhost.localdomain%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection">dcoulette at yahoo.fr + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Oct 18 23:40:49 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002469.html">[Mageia-discuss] rpm compatibility +</A></li> + + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2473">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2473">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2473">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2473">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE> +><i> Instead of focusing on the needs of the community, why not start thinking +</I>><i> of building a distribution for main stream users. Think about how +</I>><i> successful companies design their products. Think about what has made +</I>><i> Apple so successful. It's vision and foresight. It's knowing what people +</I>><i> need and building it, before they even realize that they need it. +</I>><i> +</I>What made Apple successful is targeting people who can afford buying +what they don't really need, and making them think it's vital. + + + +</PRE> + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002469.html">[Mageia-discuss] rpm compatibility +</A></li> + + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2473">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2473">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2473">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2473">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/author.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/author.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..72c54dd7c --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/author.html @@ -0,0 +1,152 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <title>The Mageia-discuss 18 October 2010 Archive by author</title> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="noindex,follow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <a name="start"></A> + <h1>18 October 2010 Archives by author</h1> + <ul> + <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b> + <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a> + + <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a> + + <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More info on this list... + </a></b></li> + </ul> + <p><b>Starting:</b> <i>Mon Oct 18 00:30:36 CEST 2010</i><br> + <b>Ending:</b> <i>Mon Oct 18 23:40:49 CEST 2010</i><br> + <b>Messages:</b> 21<p> + <ul> + +<LI><A HREF="002461.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2461"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002464.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2464"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002472.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A><A NAME="2472"> </A> +<I>David Coulette +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002473.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2473"> </A> +<I>David Coulette +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002463.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2463"> </A> +<I>Hoyt Duff +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002468.html">[Mageia-discuss] The new Linux distributions timeline with Mageia +</A><A NAME="2468"> </A> +<I>Dimitrios Glentadakis +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002462.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2462"> </A> +<I>Frank Griffin +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002469.html">[Mageia-discuss] rpm compatibility +</A><A NAME="2469"> </A> +<I>Florian Hubold +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002454.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2454"> </A> +<I>Graham Lauder +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002455.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2455"> </A> +<I>Graham Lauder +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002456.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2456"> </A> +<I>Graham Lauder +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002457.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2457"> </A> +<I>Graham Lauder +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002471.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2471"> </A> +<I>Graham Lauder +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002470.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A><A NAME="2470"> </A> +<I>Morgan Leijström +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002467.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2467"> </A> +<I>Renaud MICHEL +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002458.html">[Mageia-discuss] translation of the FAQ from English to Portuguese, +</A><A NAME="2458"> </A> +<I>MacXi +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002466.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A><A NAME="2466"> </A> +<I>Marc Paré +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002459.html">[Mageia-discuss] [Mageia-announce] Home Sweet Home! +</A><A NAME="2459"> </A> +<I>Ahmad Samir +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002452.html">[Mageia-discuss] rpm compatibility +</A><A NAME="2452"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002465.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A><A NAME="2465"> </A> +<I>George J. Walsh +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002460.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2460"> </A> +<I>Romain d'Alverny +</I> + + </ul> + <p> + <a name="end"><b>Last message date:</b></a> + <i>Mon Oct 18 23:40:49 CEST 2010</i><br> + <b>Archived on:</b> <i>Mon Oct 18 23:41:01 CEST 2010</i> + <p> + <ul> + <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b> + <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a> + + <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a> + <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More info on this list... + </a></b></li> + </ul> + <p> + <hr> + <i>This archive was generated by + Pipermail 0.09 (Mailman edition).</i> + </BODY> +</HTML> + diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/date.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/date.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..8ba33bd0f --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/date.html @@ -0,0 +1,152 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <title>The Mageia-discuss 18 October 2010 Archive by date</title> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="noindex,follow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <a name="start"></A> + <h1>18 October 2010 Archives by date</h1> + <ul> + <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b> + <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a> + + + <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More info on this list... + </a></b></li> + </ul> + <p><b>Starting:</b> <i>Mon Oct 18 00:30:36 CEST 2010</i><br> + <b>Ending:</b> <i>Mon Oct 18 23:40:49 CEST 2010</i><br> + <b>Messages:</b> 21<p> + <ul> + +<LI><A HREF="002454.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2454"> </A> +<I>Graham Lauder +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002452.html">[Mageia-discuss] rpm compatibility +</A><A NAME="2452"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002455.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2455"> </A> +<I>Graham Lauder +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002456.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2456"> </A> +<I>Graham Lauder +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002457.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2457"> </A> +<I>Graham Lauder +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002458.html">[Mageia-discuss] translation of the FAQ from English to Portuguese, +</A><A NAME="2458"> </A> +<I>MacXi +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002459.html">[Mageia-discuss] [Mageia-announce] Home Sweet Home! +</A><A NAME="2459"> </A> +<I>Ahmad Samir +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002460.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2460"> </A> +<I>Romain d'Alverny +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002461.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2461"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002462.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2462"> </A> +<I>Frank Griffin +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002463.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2463"> </A> +<I>Hoyt Duff +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002464.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2464"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002465.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A><A NAME="2465"> </A> +<I>George J. Walsh +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002466.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A><A NAME="2466"> </A> +<I>Marc Paré +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002467.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2467"> </A> +<I>Renaud MICHEL +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002468.html">[Mageia-discuss] The new Linux distributions timeline with Mageia +</A><A NAME="2468"> </A> +<I>Dimitrios Glentadakis +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002469.html">[Mageia-discuss] rpm compatibility +</A><A NAME="2469"> </A> +<I>Florian Hubold +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002470.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A><A NAME="2470"> </A> +<I>Morgan Leijström +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002471.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2471"> </A> +<I>Graham Lauder +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002472.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A><A NAME="2472"> </A> +<I>David Coulette +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002473.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2473"> </A> +<I>David Coulette +</I> + + </ul> + <p> + <a name="end"><b>Last message date:</b></a> + <i>Mon Oct 18 23:40:49 CEST 2010</i><br> + <b>Archived on:</b> <i>Mon Oct 18 23:41:01 CEST 2010</i> + <p> + <ul> + <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b> + <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a> + + <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More info on this list... + </a></b></li> + </ul> + <p> + <hr> + <i>This archive was generated by + Pipermail 0.09 (Mailman edition).</i> + </BODY> +</HTML> + diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/index.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/index.html new file mode 120000 index 000000000..db4b46f72 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/index.html @@ -0,0 +1 @@ +thread.html
\ No newline at end of file diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/subject.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/subject.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..f7b90e792 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/subject.html @@ -0,0 +1,152 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <title>The Mageia-discuss 18 October 2010 Archive by subject</title> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="noindex,follow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <a name="start"></A> + <h1>18 October 2010 Archives by subject</h1> + <ul> + <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b> + <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a> + + <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a> + <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a> + + <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More info on this list... + </a></b></li> + </ul> + <p><b>Starting:</b> <i>Mon Oct 18 00:30:36 CEST 2010</i><br> + <b>Ending:</b> <i>Mon Oct 18 23:40:49 CEST 2010</i><br> + <b>Messages:</b> 21<p> + <ul> + +<LI><A HREF="002459.html">[Mageia-discuss] [Mageia-announce] Home Sweet Home! +</A><A NAME="2459"> </A> +<I>Ahmad Samir +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002454.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2454"> </A> +<I>Graham Lauder +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002455.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2455"> </A> +<I>Graham Lauder +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002456.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2456"> </A> +<I>Graham Lauder +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002457.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2457"> </A> +<I>Graham Lauder +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002460.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2460"> </A> +<I>Romain d'Alverny +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002461.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2461"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002462.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2462"> </A> +<I>Frank Griffin +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002463.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2463"> </A> +<I>Hoyt Duff +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002464.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2464"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002467.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2467"> </A> +<I>Renaud MICHEL +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002471.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2471"> </A> +<I>Graham Lauder +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002473.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2473"> </A> +<I>David Coulette +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002465.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A><A NAME="2465"> </A> +<I>George J. Walsh +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002466.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A><A NAME="2466"> </A> +<I>Marc Paré +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002470.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A><A NAME="2470"> </A> +<I>Morgan Leijström +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002472.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A><A NAME="2472"> </A> +<I>David Coulette +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002452.html">[Mageia-discuss] rpm compatibility +</A><A NAME="2452"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002469.html">[Mageia-discuss] rpm compatibility +</A><A NAME="2469"> </A> +<I>Florian Hubold +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002468.html">[Mageia-discuss] The new Linux distributions timeline with Mageia +</A><A NAME="2468"> </A> +<I>Dimitrios Glentadakis +</I> + +<LI><A HREF="002458.html">[Mageia-discuss] translation of the FAQ from English to Portuguese, +</A><A NAME="2458"> </A> +<I>MacXi +</I> + + </ul> + <p> + <a name="end"><b>Last message date:</b></a> + <i>Mon Oct 18 23:40:49 CEST 2010</i><br> + <b>Archived on:</b> <i>Mon Oct 18 23:41:01 CEST 2010</i> + <p> + <ul> + <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b> + <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a> + + <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a> + <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a> + <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More info on this list... + </a></b></li> + </ul> + <p> + <hr> + <i>This archive was generated by + Pipermail 0.09 (Mailman edition).</i> + </BODY> +</HTML> + diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/thread.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/thread.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..475bc5a4e --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101018/thread.html @@ -0,0 +1,183 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <title>The Mageia-discuss 18 October 2010 Archive by thread</title> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="noindex,follow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <a name="start"></A> + <h1>18 October 2010 Archives by thread</h1> + <ul> + <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b> + + <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a> + <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a> + + <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More info on this list... + </a></b></li> + </ul> + <p><b>Starting:</b> <i>Mon Oct 18 00:30:36 CEST 2010</i><br> + <b>Ending:</b> <i>Mon Oct 18 23:40:49 CEST 2010</i><br> + <b>Messages:</b> 21<p> + <ul> + +<!--0 01287354636- --> +<LI><A HREF="002454.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2454"> </A> +<I>Graham Lauder +</I> + +<!--0 01287354937- --> +<LI><A HREF="002452.html">[Mageia-discuss] rpm compatibility +</A><A NAME="2452"> </A> +<I>Michael Scherer +</I> + +<!--0 01287357199- --> +<LI><A HREF="002455.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2455"> </A> +<I>Graham Lauder +</I> + +<!--0 01287358423- --> +<LI><A HREF="002456.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2456"> </A> +<I>Graham Lauder +</I> + +<!--0 01287361207- --> +<LI><A HREF="002457.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2457"> </A> +<I>Graham Lauder +</I> + +<UL> +<!--1 01287361207-01287428474- --> +<LI><A HREF="002467.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2467"> </A> +<I>Renaud MICHEL +</I> + +</UL> +<!--0 01287377995- --> +<LI><A HREF="002458.html">[Mageia-discuss] translation of the FAQ from English to Portuguese, +</A><A NAME="2458"> </A> +<I>MacXi +</I> + +<!--0 01287381763- --> +<LI><A HREF="002459.html">[Mageia-discuss] [Mageia-announce] Home Sweet Home! +</A><A NAME="2459"> </A> +<I>Ahmad Samir +</I> + +<!--0 01287394293- --> +<LI><A HREF="002460.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2460"> </A> +<I>Romain d'Alverny +</I> + +<UL> +<!--1 01287394293-01287394987- --> +<LI><A HREF="002461.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2461"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +</UL> +<!--0 01287415649- --> +<LI><A HREF="002462.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2462"> </A> +<I>Frank Griffin +</I> + +<UL> +<!--1 01287415649-01287416697- --> +<LI><A HREF="002463.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2463"> </A> +<I>Hoyt Duff +</I> + +<UL> +<!--2 01287415649-01287416697-01287418388- --> +<LI><A HREF="002464.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2464"> </A> +<I>Wolfgang Bornath +</I> + +</UL> +<!--1 01287415649-01287432367- --> +<LI><A HREF="002471.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2471"> </A> +<I>Graham Lauder +</I> + +</UL> +<!--0 01287425965- --> +<LI><A HREF="002465.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A><A NAME="2465"> </A> +<I>George J. Walsh +</I> + +<UL> +<!--1 01287425965-01287426739- --> +<LI><A HREF="002466.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A><A NAME="2466"> </A> +<I>Marc Paré +</I> + +<!--1 01287425965-01287431916- --> +<LI><A HREF="002470.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A><A NAME="2470"> </A> +<I>Morgan Leijström +</I> + +<!--1 01287425965-01287437712- --> +<LI><A HREF="002472.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A><A NAME="2472"> </A> +<I>David Coulette +</I> + +</UL> +<!--0 01287428651- --> +<LI><A HREF="002468.html">[Mageia-discuss] The new Linux distributions timeline with Mageia +</A><A NAME="2468"> </A> +<I>Dimitrios Glentadakis +</I> + +<!--0 01287431839- --> +<LI><A HREF="002469.html">[Mageia-discuss] rpm compatibility +</A><A NAME="2469"> </A> +<I>Florian Hubold +</I> + +<!--0 01287438049- --> +<LI><A HREF="002473.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A><A NAME="2473"> </A> +<I>David Coulette +</I> + + </ul> + <p> + <a name="end"><b>Last message date:</b></a> + <i>Mon Oct 18 23:40:49 CEST 2010</i><br> + <b>Archived on:</b> <i>Mon Oct 18 23:41:01 CEST 2010</i> + <p> + <ul> + <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b> + + <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a> + <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a> + <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More info on this list... + </a></b></li> + </ul> + <p> + <hr> + <i>This archive was generated by + Pipermail 0.09 (Mailman edition).</i> + </BODY> +</HTML> + |