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diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20110309/003942.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20110309/003942.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..54d143ab0 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20110309/003942.html @@ -0,0 +1,206 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Mirror + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mirror&In-Reply-To=%3C1299679296.2558.277.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="003941.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="003944.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Mirror</H1> + <B>Michael Scherer</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mirror&In-Reply-To=%3C1299679296.2558.277.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Mirror">misc at zarb.org + </A><BR> + <I>Wed Mar 9 15:01:36 CET 2011</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="003941.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mirror +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="003944.html">[Mageia-discuss] Looking for volunteer for french events +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#3942">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#3942">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#3942">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#3942">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Le mercredi 09 mars 2011 à 13:34 +0100, Juergen Harms a écrit : +><i> I have now arranged for a mirror to be set up at CUI - my old lab at the +</I>><i> university of Geneva - I hope it will come up in time for alpha-2. +</I> +That sound great, thanks. + +><i> CUI is glad to help, but that is not a permanent solution - CUI normally +</I>><i> does not provide this kind of service - permanent mirroring services +</I>><i> should be provided by Switch as soon as a stable Mageia release becomes +</I>><i> available. I will pursue the discussion with Switch. +</I> +Ie, not permanent, do you know how and why this would stop ? + +><i> Talking to people at Switch brought up some facts which Mandriva should +</I>><i> be aware of: +</I>><i> - There is a heritage of bad experience that has been made with Mandriva. +</I>><i> - It is not the first time that I hear the argument Mageia = Mandriva +</I>><i> = forgetit. +</I>><i> - Mageia happens at present to be perceived as "just another one of +</I>><i> those distros that appear and disappear to oblivion" (maybe with a +</I>><i> component of unfriendlyness towards Linux). +</I> +IMHO, our best bet for such case is to wait, so people can make their +minds and reconsider their position. I am not sure that trying to push +now is good. It take time to recover trust and make people forget where +do we come from. + +Our problem is that if we say "we are a mandriva fork", people think of +their bad experiences. If we don't, we appear as just yet another +distro. + +So maybe it would be better to engage first with people that do not have +negative experience with Mandriva rather than trying to convince people +who did have ? + +><i> By the way, at my university there was a similar experience: Mandriva +</I>><i> was part of the officially supported infrastructure (mirror, +</I>><i> consultancy), with fees paid to Mandriva - that broke in dysharmony due +</I>><i> to bad administrative response from Mandriva, leaving quite some ill +</I>><i> feeling. Sorry if I wade through these negative arguments, but these +</I>><i> beyond-the-enthusiast-user spotlights count. +</I> +Well, we should make clear to people that we started the project for the +same reasons that they broke from Mandriva, and that we are aware of the +problems. But IMHO, we should not try too hard to convince them to help +us, just say that we agree with them. The rest will come by itself. + +><i> I think that, when the stable release approaches, a small campaign to +</I>><i> rectify these prejudices would be an excellent thing. +</I> +That sound like a delicate task ( for the aforementioned reasons of +PR ). How would you start ? + +><i> Talking with the people at Switch who maintain the Switch mirroring +</I>><i> service, there were also some concrete and technical arguments - I +</I>><i> quote, translating from German: +</I>><i> "the communication with the mirror sites at Mandriva had already been +</I>><i> minimal, compared with other distros: announcing releases, checking the +</I>><i> availability at the mirrors (QA), etc" (which is a mere quote, dont ask +</I>><i> me to interpret). +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Switch is reluctant to maintain a mirror at "assembly language level" +</I>><i> ("just run rsync every 2 hours"), they would prefer solutions using +</I>><i> something like MirrorBrain - but probably Mandriva experiences are part +</I>><i> of the background to this argument. +</I> +Well, what do they need more precisely ? + +We understand well that they do not want to micromanage the mirror ( I +think no one does ), but then they can for sure understand that we +cannot adapt to everybody too on our side ( ie, another kind of micro +management ). + +And for mirrorbrain, I do not see how this relate to rsync, as the +software is used on distro side to distribute mirrors lists, if I +understand well. Rsync is still used to mirror around. + +If I remember, the problem of switch was "there is not enough users to +justify the mirroring" ( as you explained before ), and I do not think +this will be solved until one or two years, nor that mirrorbrain will +produce more users by magic. + +So maybe we should just wait to be credible when asking something to +them and be honest about that ? + +><i> At present, putting a mirror on a univeristy site puts it into an +</I>><i> environment which is in good match to the straightforward rsync approach +</I>><i> - correct for the alpha period of Mageia. +</I> +Given the high number of university for all others distributions, I +think this is a good match for most of them :) + +><i> But I think that on the long-run there are lessons to be learned from +</I>><i> the discussion with Switch - mirrors for a stable Mageia should be +</I>><i> preferably hosted at professionally run mirror sites (who make the kind +</I>><i> of consideration I quoted above), university solutions should come as +</I>><i> additional icing. In case of a second round of discussion on how to +</I>><i> organise Mageia mirrors, it might be a good idea to have that discussion +</I>><i> with some participation from the mirror sites. +</I> +I do not understand what you mean by "professionally run mirror". I +think this doesn't mean what you want it to mean. + +Switch.ch core "business" is not to run mirrors, this is to sell +connectivity ( to swiss schools ). The core "business" of a university +is not to host mirrors, but researchers and students. + +><i>From my point of view, there is 2 motivations ( that can be +</I>overlapping ): +- people who run mirrors to help free software +- people who run mirrors because this help them on various level + +A mirror can help to save bandwidth ( for example, free.fr is a french +provider, all linux user will likely go on their mirror as this is +faster ), or to leverage this for peering/trafic negotiation ( see +<A HREF="http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2008/09/peering-and-transit.ars">http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2008/09/peering-and-transit.ars</A> , I +also recommend to see <A HREF="http://www.blogg.ch/uploads/peering-playbook.pdf">http://www.blogg.ch/uploads/peering-playbook.pdf</A> , +given at the end of the article ). + +I think most universities does this to help free software, and because +they use internally. I think most volunteer-run mirrors, like the one of +Wobo fall in this category too. + +On the contrary, I suppose that most operators ( like switch to some +extend, but for free.fr, belgacom, etc ) does this for peering/trafic +reasons, and that mean they need to have enough traffic for this to be +useful for them, and enough users to justify the need. For now, I do not +think we are in a position to be interesting to this kind of mirrors. + +So what we could do is to ask for some metrics so we could now when we +will be able to reach a agreement, and try to have a multiple step +plan : +- first, we try to engage some universities ( or likely minded admins, +such as kernel.org, or others ), to cope with the load of the +distribution. Some being 4/5. + +- based on the feedback, we make sure that the documentation is correct, +that our procedure works, etc, etc. + +- once we have more and more people ( with metrics that have to be +found ), we try to find more mirrors. + +- once we are interesting enough to engage people in the connectivity +business, then we try to engage them ( likely not before one or two +years, maybe more ). + +-- +Michael Scherer + +</PRE> + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="003941.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mirror +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="003944.html">[Mageia-discuss] Looking for volunteer for french events +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#3942">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#3942">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#3942">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#3942">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> |