diff options
Diffstat (limited to 'zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20100927/001354.html')
| -rw-r--r-- | zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20100927/001354.html | 461 |
1 files changed, 461 insertions, 0 deletions
diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20100927/001354.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20100927/001354.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..5c1c0a31a --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20100927/001354.html @@ -0,0 +1,461 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Mageia-discuss - rpm or deb? + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia-discuss%20-%20rpm%20or%20deb%3F&In-Reply-To=%3C245081.77799.qm%40web27305.mail.ukl.yahoo.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="001352.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001355.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Mageia-discuss - rpm or deb?</H1> + <B>Jean-François BELLANGER</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia-discuss%20-%20rpm%20or%20deb%3F&In-Reply-To=%3C245081.77799.qm%40web27305.mail.ukl.yahoo.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Mageia-discuss - rpm or deb?">jean_francois.bellanger at yahoo.fr + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Sep 27 10:10:44 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001352.html">[Mageia-discuss] On the icons, desktop themes and related stuff +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001355.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia-discuss - rpm or deb? +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1354">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1354">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1354">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1354">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Pour moi cette idée est tous sauf débile, d'ailleurs j'avais fait la même +reflexion il y a 2 ans dans les ideas mandriva. + +Le principe existe dans un sens (rpm ---> deb) par le truchement de "alien" +pourquoi ne pas le faire dans l'autre sens et allez plus loin en intégrant +nativement le procédé à la distro. + +Je ne crois qu'un utilisateur néophite ce pose la question de savoir si il doit +utiliser un paquet rpm ou deb ou truc venu de l'espace..... + +PS : J'ai d'ailleurs fais la même reflexion vis à vis de wine qui pour moi +devrait être fondu dans la distro pour prendre en charge les .exe car une fois +de plus l'utilisateur lambda (comme beaucoup des profs et élèves que je cotoie) +se fiche du nom du sytème. Ils veulent que se soit beau et que sa fonctionne +sans avoir a y passer des heures en documentation et essai. PEUT ON LEUR EN +VOULOIR ??? + +Donc pour moi +1 :-) + + + + +________________________________ +De : "<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">mageia-discuss-request at mageia.org</A>" <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">mageia-discuss-request at mageia.org</A>> +À : <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">mageia-discuss at mageia.org</A> +Envoyé le : Lun 27 septembre 2010, 3h 15min 31s +Objet : Mageia-discuss Digest, Vol 1, Issue 191 + +Send Mageia-discuss mailing list submissions to + <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">mageia-discuss at mageia.org</A> + +To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit + <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss</A> +or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to + <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">mageia-discuss-request at mageia.org</A> + +You can reach the person managing the list at + <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">mageia-discuss-owner at mageia.org</A> + +When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific +than "Re: Contents of Mageia-discuss digest..." + + +Today's Topics: + + 1. Re: rpm or deb? (Lucien-Henry Horvath) + 2. Re: Mageia's strategy (Frank Griffin) + 3. Re: Mageia's strategy (vfmBOFH) + 4. Mageia with Synaptic (paulo ricardo) + 5. Re: rpm or deb? (Tux99) + 6. Re: Mageia with Synaptic (Tux99) + 7. Mageia Developer Version/Edition? (Ireneusz Gierlach) + + +---------------------------------------------------------------------- + +Message: 1 +Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 00:40:44 +0200 +From: Lucien-Henry Horvath <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">tempo2 at marneau.eu</A>> +To: <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">mageia-discuss at mageia.org</A> +Subject: Re: [Mageia-discuss] rpm or deb? +Message-ID: <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">4C9FCBEC.106 at marneau.eu</A>> +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed + +Hi, (en FR en-dessous) +My suggestion is a little crazy ... +With the new departure of this distro, perhaps is it a good idea to +invent a sort of "unified managment" of DEV / RPM. +We start on urpmi, and add to urpmi the abilities to encapsulate apt-get ? +So just easy play " urpmi <A HREF="http://www.skype.com/download/skype.deb">http://www.skype.com/download/skype.deb</A>" ;-) +It's auto-manage dependencies and finaly, urpmi launch "apt-get install". +Is it technicaly possible ? +-- +Bonjour (in EN up) +Ma suggestion suivante va para?tre d?bile, mais ... +En cr?ant une nouvelle distribution, ce serait peut-?tre une bonne id?e +d'inventer _enfin_ une sorte de "gestion unifi?e" des paquetages deb et rpm. +L'id?e est d'encapsuler apt-get dans urpmi. +Ainsi, on lance juste urpmi "URL/t?l?chargement/fichier.deb" et ?a g?re +tout seul les d?pendances. +Est-ce techniquement possible ? + + + +Le 26/09/2010 23:55, Carlos Daniel Ruvalcaba Valenzuela a ?crit : +><i> I personally found no practical advantage of using apt-get vs urpmi, +</I>><i> while apt has many nice features urpmi is also solid and works +</I>><i> perfectly in most common cases, the only problem you may have is with +</I>><i> malformed packages or with erroneous dependency information, in which +</I>><i> case the only advantage of apt-get is the fact that Debian takes a lot +</I>><i> of care of having correct and working packages, which most RPM based +</I>><i> distros does too (you may get problems with 3th party repos but that +</I>><i> is another problem). +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Being a Mandriva fork we would logically stick with it's tools and +</I>><i> packaging system. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Regards, +</I>><i> Carlos Daniel Ruvalcaba Valenzuela +</I>><i> +</I>><i> On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 2:46 PM, Kristoffer Grundstr?m +</I>><i> <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">kristoffer.grundstrom1983 at gmail.com</A>> wrote: +</I>><i> +</I>>><i> Why not create a new format with the best of both worlds (if possible)? +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> .mageia ? +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Hoyt Duff skrev 2010-09-26 19:44: +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 7:13 AM, RAVI KUMAR BALASUBRAMANIAM +</I>>><i> <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">ravikumar17jan at gmail.com</A>> wrote: +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> only thing i hate about mandriva is its rpm based packages +</I>>><i> i prefer apt and deb personally +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> I can understand a personal preference, but why do you believe that +</I>>><i> deb is superior to rpm? Given that Mandriva is already rpm-based, what +</I>>><i> benefit could be derived from abandoning the existing build system and +</I>>><i> urpmi? +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> > From everything I have read, neither system has a clear advantage over +</I>>><i> the other, and the end result of using either is essentially the same. +</I>>><i> I don't believe that changing to a deb-based system would provide any +</I>>><i> significant benefit to justify the expense in terms of re-training +</I>>><i> devs and creating a new build system. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> +</I>><i> +</I> + + +------------------------------ + +Message: 2 +Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 19:01:59 -0400 +From: Frank Griffin <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">ftg at roadrunner.com</A>> +To: Mageia general discussions <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">mageia-discuss at mageia.org</A>> +Subject: Re: [Mageia-discuss] Mageia's strategy +Message-ID: <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">4C9FD0E7.8090001 at roadrunner.com</A>> +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 + +P. Christeas wrote: +><i> Let me rant in a rather non-polite tone: +</I>><i> why does *every* Linux distro have to be for Windows users?? Why does every +</I>><i> product need to be targeted at stupid people? (obvious answer: there is lots +</I>><i> of them) +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>I think you have to separate "looking like Windows" from "implementing +as does Microsoft". One of the things MS does very well is user +interface design. What they *don't* do so well is implementation: +everything is done through the GUI, and MS oversimplifies by making +choices silently for the user without giving the user the option to +override. + +We're not exactly innocent in this respect either. MDV tools are +excellent, but they need the closure of a full transparent CLI as well +as a GUI. Experts and administrators need to be able to provide +configuration through batch scripts. This is not the case in many +areas. I do a large number of fresh installs intended to create a new +system configured as an existing system was, and it's really annoying to +boot for the first time and then have to invoke several GUIs to do +things like printer configuration, wireless configuration, and font +installation. + +In many areas, we have lost track of the simple fact that a Graphical +User Interface should be just that - an *interface* to a modular and +independent non-graphical module which provides "business logic". It +should never be the only way to access the business logic. Hopefully, +free of Mandriva's corporate restrictions, we can achieve that now. + +Another issue is choice. System tools have to provide a range of choice +suitable for both experts and newbies. While it is acceptable to choose +defaults that will work for newbies out of the box, it is not acceptable +to limit choices for everyone to those defaults. We've done this on +more than one occasion, the most memorable one being to radically change +and lock down the application menu system and refuse to consider any +configuration options that would deviate from this. + +Finally, there is transparency. MDV tools have in many cases extended +the standard Linux way of doing things in imaginative and useful ways. +What they don't do is document those ways so that admins and users used +to standard Linux ways can manually intervene or provide tool +extensions without extensive code reading. Also, there are many +portions of the toolset, e.g. disk partitioning, network sharing, +setting up VPNs, etc., which involve extremely intrusive and possibly +destructive operations. All such tools need to have an option, not +necessarily the default, to display to the user a detailed list of +changes that the tool proposes to make, and prompt for approval. + +The problem here is that advanced users and admins get understandably +scared when a tool proposes to do something that involves modifying +multiple critical configuration files or system resources without +providing the details of the changes so that they can be denied if +unwanted, or undone later if so desired. + +An even better approach would be to have each configuration tool produce +a program-readable file describing actions it takes, much as RPMs +provide, so that the tool, or some general tool running on another +bootable system with access to the root partition of the affected system +could undo the changes. + +I understand why these things were never done in the past. +Management/marketing (and perhaps even some devs) wanted the +windows-like newbie simplification, and didn't have the resources or the +desire to provide the closure of these features. I hope that we can +move past this. + + +------------------------------ + +Message: 3 +Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 01:02:35 +0200 +From: vfmBOFH <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">vfmbofh at gmail.com</A>> +To: Mageia general discussions <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">mageia-discuss at mageia.org</A>> +Subject: Re: [Mageia-discuss] Mageia's strategy +Message-ID: + <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">AANLkTimGPtHi0ZUsVAbdYdTC5+F15BXqAasV_tmyTVsp at mail.gmail.com</A>> +Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" + +2010/9/26 Sascha Schneider <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">schneider at zawm.be</A>> +><i> +</I>><i> I totally agree to that and I hope Mageia will make this happen. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> But I also agree that at this time Mageia has to saddle as a fork, +</I>><i> structures have to be build, etc. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Plus, we wouldn't use Mandriva if we don't like the way it works. So no +</I>><i> need to change to deb or make Gnome the primer Desktop Env. or stuff like +</I>><i> that +</I>><i> +</I>><i> My dream would be a very User and Admin friendly Disto +</I>><i> +</I>><i> One Installer CD for Desktop Dualarch - metapacks for the desktop env +</I>><i> One Installer CD for a Serverversion inkl. LXDE + MMC-base and metapaks for +</I>><i> some spezial apps inkl. the MMC modules (and pulse) +</I>><i> One Installer CD for a Virtualserver using f.e. OpenVZ and a MMC based +</I>><i> webui and some community templates +</I>><i> +</I>><i> In my opinion with this simple trippelisation you can arrange all kind of +</I>><i> home, business, school, multimedia, netbook ... structures you ever imagine +</I>><i> all with one Distro. +</I>><i> +</I> +That's very, very near of my own vision for a "perfect" Linux OS. We have +the big advantage that everything yet still not done. And we count with +tools (delta-rpms, metapackages) to build a core system with "add-ons" (like +server packages, desktop packages...) improving modularity and system +organization. + +At the same time, i'm aware that it can be a too big break from the mageia's +origins (in the meaning of system's scheme and organization). So, if we can +progressively drive mageia to this new scheme sounds reasonable too. + +Cheers. +-------------- next part -------------- +An HTML attachment was scrubbed... +URL: +</pipermail/mageia-discuss/attachments/20100927/824696d2/attachment-0001.html> + +------------------------------ + +Message: 4 +Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 03:01:29 +0300 +From: paulo ricardo <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">paulo_ricardogo at hotmail.com</A>> +To: <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">mageia-discuss at mageia.org</A>> +Subject: [Mageia-discuss] Mageia with Synaptic +Message-ID: <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">SNT124-W3FBA1BA8C0245C166EC709F650 at phx.gbl</A>> +Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" + + +I am not proposing to replace the "URPMI" by the "APT-RPM! I'm proposing we +change the "Rpmdrake" with "Synaptic" and keeping the "URPMI! +The URPMI is very good, plus the "Rpmdrake" is horrible! + +We discuss these things before the programming work to eat. We must define how +the O.S should be! this discussion is important because the GUI package +management directly influences the daily work in an OS! + +My proposal is that we keep the rpm and urpmi! But substitute Rpmdrake by +Synaptic, and creating a second interface aimed at users with less knowledge. + + +-------------- next part -------------- +An HTML attachment was scrubbed... +URL: +</pipermail/mageia-discuss/attachments/20100927/c7111483/attachment-0001.html> + +------------------------------ + +Message: 5 +Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 02:19:57 +0200 (CEST) +From: Tux99 <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">tux99-mga at uridium.org</A>> +To: Mageia general discussions <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">mageia-discuss at mageia.org</A>> +Subject: Re: [Mageia-discuss] rpm or deb? +Message-ID: <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">Pine.LNX.4.44.1009270212430.9293-100000 at outpost-priv</A>> +Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII + +On Sun, 26 Sep 2010, Carlos Daniel Ruvalcaba Valenzuela wrote: + +><i> Being a Mandriva fork we would logically stick with it's tools and +</I>><i> packaging system. +</I> +Agreed, if we start questioning everything we might as well all go home. + +Mandriva/Mageia are rpm distros and I would expect them to stay like +that otherwise we could just all use Debian or one of it's derivatives. + +urpmi is at least as good as apt-get, if anyone finds that urpmi lacks a +feature that apt-get has, then please suggest it (not now, later when +Mageia is set up) so it can be considered to add that feature to urpmi, +but that's definitely not a reason to abandon urpmi. + + + +------------------------------ + +Message: 6 +Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 02:56:24 +0200 (CEST) +From: Tux99 <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">tux99-mga at uridium.org</A>> +To: Mageia general discussions <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">mageia-discuss at mageia.org</A>> +Subject: Re: [Mageia-discuss] Mageia with Synaptic +Message-ID: <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">Pine.LNX.4.44.1009270248310.9293-100000 at outpost-priv</A>> +Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII + +On Mon, 27 Sep 2010, paulo ricardo wrote: + +><i> +</I>><i> I am not proposing to replace the "URPMI" by the "APT-RPM! I'm +</I>><i> proposing we change the "Rpmdrake" with "Synaptic" and keeping the +</I>><i> "URPMI! The URPMI is very good, plus the "Rpmdrake" is horrible! +</I> +Instead of saying "rpmdrake is horrible", it would be more useful if you +list what you don't like so it can be improved. No tool is perfect, I'm +sure Synaptic has flaws to, so just switching to Synaptic only means +trading one set of flaws for another. + +Personally I find rpmdrake works perfectly fine (the startup speed +could need improving though), it does all I need it to do (and I would +consider myself an advanced user, since I have 15 years Linux experience +and work as a sysadmin) and then there are always the urpmi CLI tools as +alternative. + +So lets stop wasting time by talking badly about all those things that +make Mandriva (and therefore Mageia) the great distro it is, and instead +lets concentrate on improving (rather than replacing) the tools of +Madriva/Mageia. + + + +------------------------------ + +Message: 7 +Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 21:17:21 -0400 +From: Ireneusz Gierlach <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">irek.gierlach at gmail.com</A>> +To: Mageia general discussions <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">mageia-discuss at mageia.org</A>> +Subject: [Mageia-discuss] Mageia Developer Version/Edition? +Message-ID: <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">4C9FF0A1.6070704 at gmail.com</A>> +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed + + I just thought of this, and I have never seen that done, so I'm not +sure how it would (if) work exactly. +I was thinking about creating a specific version of the OS that would +consist of all development tools required to build packages, develop +components, etc. This would provide the same environment for all +developers, and help in bug fixing, as they would all have the same +packages (by default, I was also thinking about implementing a better +version of Mandriva's Package Stats with an ability to input a list of +packages [from the bug reporter] so the tester can automatically +download the same versions). It is just a thought, but I would love to +see something like this implemented. I want to see what you guys think +of this too ;) (I'm trying to create something like this but not for OS +but for a framework, so I want to see some opinions.) + + +------------------------------ + +_______________________________________________ +Mageia-discuss mailing list +<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">Mageia-discuss at mageia.org</A> +<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss</A> + +End of Mageia-discuss Digest, Vol 1, Issue 191 +********************************************** + + + + +-------------- next part -------------- +An HTML attachment was scrubbed... +URL: </pipermail/mageia-discuss/attachments/20100927/9c739ed5/attachment-0001.html> +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001352.html">[Mageia-discuss] On the icons, desktop themes and related stuff +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001355.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia-discuss - rpm or deb? +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1354">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1354">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1354">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1354">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> |