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diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20110308/003126.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20110308/003126.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..f976e4462 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20110308/003126.html @@ -0,0 +1,297 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] RPM5 AND MAGEIA + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20RPM5%20AND%20MAGEIA&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTi%3DsPY36f%2BMmT0zNVqPtKNM0SUcUwwjuNjcryEub%40mail.gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="003127.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="003128.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] RPM5 AND MAGEIA</H1> + <B>Per Øyvind Karlsen</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20RPM5%20AND%20MAGEIA&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTi%3DsPY36f%2BMmT0zNVqPtKNM0SUcUwwjuNjcryEub%40mail.gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] RPM5 AND MAGEIA">peroyvind at mandriva.org + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Mar 8 22:11:11 CET 2011</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="003127.html">[Mageia-dev] Alpha2 iso content +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="003128.html">[Mageia-dev] RPM5 AND MAGEIA +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#3126">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#3126">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#3126">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#3126">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>2011/3/2 Dexter Morgan <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">dmorganec at gmail.com</A>>: +><i> On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 4:21 PM, devzero2000 <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">devzero2000 at rpm5.org</A>> wrote: +</I>>><i> Hi to Mageia +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> I am part of rpm5 (but I follow rpm from more than 10 years) and +</I>>><i> recently I did join Mageia, although I almost always used for work +</I>>><i> other distros and OS (AIX, SVR4) that I also deal with Mandriva and +</I>>><i> security (CEH) https: / / +</I>>><i> www.redhat.com/wapps/training/certification/verify.html?certNumber=805007215126804&verify=Verify +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Apart from the rest - of which i will ask for sponsorship when it will +</I>>><i> be - I wanted to know if there are plans to move to rpm5 by Mageia, +</I>>><i> such as Mandriva has been doing lately. Rpm5 already has a builtbot +</I>>><i> with Magela and rpm5. I can, if you can think useful or have plan for +</I>>><i> this, lay the necessary modification to enter into rpm5 Mageia, with +</I>>><i> the features of Mandriva cooker - fingerprint, syslog, etc. without +</I>>><i> trademark ecc- and produce a first rpm rpm5 for mageia , which also +</I>>><i> contains the functionality required by the passage to the "RPM +</I>>><i> ACID " feauture (berkeley db conversion) +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> is there interest? Then if someone wants to directly participate in +</I>>><i> rpm5 I think that there should also be no problem. +</I>Exactly, opposed to rpm.org upstream which only has a few redhat employees +working on it with no public communication, coordination and discussions between +distributions, rpm5 is community driven and has the active involvement +and more open participation from several vendors/distributions on different +platforms.. + +Your (Mageia;) participation is more than welcome and active direct involvement +in upstream development is generally no problem at all in arranging. :) +>><i> +</I>>><i> Opinions ? +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> TIA +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Regards +</I>>><i> +</I>><i> Hi, +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Please read the archives we already talked about this several times on the ML. +</I>I saw several people talking and asking about rpm5 on both mageia-discuss@ +& mageia-dev@ list, I even myself (and also relayed Jeff's) offered to maintain +and provide any help you'd accepted on it for Mageia a couple of ties without +any response. I saw several people asking semi-frequently asking about it on +different occations since, but without any actual discussions considering the +topic taking place. +I can only recall seeing one post from Thierry to mageia-devel@ where he +made a suggestion for rpm.org, but never saw anything about it since before +the upgrade to newer rpm.org version was done by someone I'd never seen +the name of before except for a fictional character on a TV series probably +totally unrelated(?;) and even much less so ever saw participating in any +of the discussions concerning it previously. + +But I only follow these two lists, there might be other lists I don't know of +(ie. communication around cooker tends to go across and between +<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">maintainers at mandriva.com</A> (that a lot of people don't even know of) and +cooker@ lists, and then also at some various other internal lists at Mandriva +that's restricted, so for all that I know the discussion could've taken place +somewhere that I might not even expect to be open for me;) and where the +actual discussion took place. I dunno, do you have any references to the +discussion? I'm usually quite interested and curious about such discussions +in general. :) +><i> +</I>><i> We are using rpm.org for now, and we are happy with this, we are +</I>><i> already working with rpm.org teams and this works pretty nice. +</I>Telling that you're "already working with rpm.org" and being able to comment +about the experience less than a day after making first post to rpm-maint list +introducing yourself and Mageia seems a bit premature to me, but it might +be a cultural thing.. ;p </troll> +><i> +</I>><i> But you can go and help mandriva as they have several problems with rpm5. +</I>Yes, and we're even actually aware of these ourself (*coughcough*;), currently +none of those (reported) is of particularly significant size or causing major +headaches to people in general for a little while now though. There's still +some few issues left that *must* be worked out in time for 2011.0 none the +less though. The number of other issues, room for improvements, planned +features, cleanups, ideas and what not otherwise is rather long and rather +non-finite and not likely to ever be finished and really "done" with, +but at least +I can say that it's significantly shorter now after changing to new rpm version +with a lot of the more long-time work already done in it before switching. :) + +I'm more than willing to accept (and provide) any help, interest and discuss +any details concerning rpm, regardless of distro and rpm version/fork, be +it related to any of current issues affecting distro, other things I have on my +TODO list, or other aspects and focus independent of these. I'm very open to +try my best to scale and allow for others that have the interest and skills to +discuss and contribute, either directly or indirectly! +><i> +</I>><i> In addition, rpm5 ( i hate this name as this makes think rpm5 is a new +</I>><i> version of rpm which isn't true ) is just another rpm and i think that +</I>><i> this is better to stay compatible with the most distributions ( +</I>><i> fedora, opensuse, ... ) instead of using rpm5. +</I>You claim for it to be old? +And by what is your definition to "stay compatible" with most distributions? +Are you referring to different distributions doing releases, +or compatibility between individual releases of the specific distributions? + +For compatibility between different distributions, the only +distribution actively +involved with actual upstream development of rpm.org is Fedora, with +complaints heard from others on despite it being over a year since Fedora +& OpenSuSE had their RPM Summit (which "only" covered rather "smaller" +issues concerning packaging policies than involvement and active +participation in +upstream development), nothing has been heard between the two since.. + +The amount of changes from upstream carried in OpenSuSE's rpm was +quite huge and making incompatibilities between the two bigger than between +ie. rpm.org & rpm5.org, with the situation not changing much since from last +I heard.. And considering that I've fully reviewed and merged all patches in +Mandriva dating all the way back to 1999 in rpm5 upstream along with a lot +of practices, macros, scripts etc. as well in both directions, level of +"compatibility" between Mageia & rpm5 is far greater than any other (with +other rpm5 based distros being more compatible with Mageia than Mageia +is with non-rpm5 based distros as well;).. + +Even between individual releases from the individual rpm forks there are +always similarly incompatibilities often happening and impossible to get +around while keeping full "compatibility" intact. +For the upgrade in cooker to rpm 5.3 there was two bigger changes happening, +the first one being the rpmdb changes requiring a conversion to take place, +this was inconvenient but a proper and safe procedure to achieve it +was mostly worked out before hitting main/release, with the rest of it +pretty much fully perfected since (with support for conversion back and +forth added as well to achieve "compatibility"), making this issue only +temporary and not really of much concern outside of that limited period +(except for when upgrading from cooker to Mageia, I've again given +pointers, suggestions, specific directions and even offered to provide +help on doing it, but as usual and to little surprise, interest was close +to zero..). + +The second issue causing bigger incompatibility issues and pains is the +new distepoch tag I've introduced in Mandriva and that we're the first +real adopters of (it's not even yet officially supported upstream). +This is more of a particular feature implemented by myself rather than +so much related to the specific rpm version beyond the rpm version +I used to implement it in first (I have it on my TODO to port to rpm.org +later and has discussed it with positive interest from upstream of in the +past as well btw. ;), and also causing greater incompatibilities and +headaches between tools and the packages built for the specific +distribution. Worst issues has been worked out for this one as well with +various related fixes to deal with incompatibility being ported back to +stable releases along with some some other unrelated fixes as well +(if interested, you'll find the 3.37.2 branch of perl-URPM in mandriva svn, +which except for the fixes mentioned is basically identical to your 3.38 +inn Mageia). + +These are anyways not issues impossible to manage, and much of +the intent behind distepoch, ironically enough, is rather to improve +future compatibility with other distributions by moving distro specific +stuff out of the src.rpm. ;) +You'll always keep run into these issues, neither direction attempted will +free you from ever running into them now or in the future. +If you really wanna discuss "compatibility", you *really* need to define +what is even somewhat implied by this as *compatibility* isn't something +you'll be able to achieve nor anyone else really has that much interest +in chasing.. + +I honestly don't even expect you to read on and all the way down to even +here to begin with. If you do, good, it's one step in the right direction, if +not and not really grasping these issues, you're doomed at even +attempt starting to begin with. :p + +So first of all and most important to begin with is how you yourself wants +to deal with the particular issues for your distribution, how to efficiently +solve your own individual problems to begin with, how to improve things +to make life for anyone involved in maintaining the distribution currently +easier. +Then you can start think about "compatibility", first of all between your own +individual releases and tools (independent of upstream) to begin with and +concern yourself on really solving things the "right way". +Then on you can finally start putting thought into "compatibility" beyond +own distribution, how to best achieve it, both on your and others' end. +With different tools in use and development, one true answer and solution +cannot easily or even always found at all, and the debate about what being +upstream or not, what's limited to your own distro only or not and what not +gets murkey and the choice needs to be done from not so much based on +which fork (or even tools to use) comes from who or what or anything, but +rather based on what's most feasible to you & maintenance, to what extent +gains in return you expect, existing involvement, knowledge, insight and +actual skills on achieving the goals set. +And uhm, yeah.. In the end it gets complex and not strictly just about +making a simple choice expecting great results in return from that alone +and sticking to it.. + +Tsktsk, my post probably ends up being labelled as flamebait, troll, too long +and boring, biased and what not.. I just felt like giving what was intended +as a somewhat brief answer in response to a lot of nonsense and FUD +(mainly built on ignorance and power of suggesion), and also from greater +interest in the particular topic you bring up, but turned into a longer +semi-rant(without even straightening out half of what I intended;) though. +Appologies given upfront! + +So I'll try avoid getting deeper into further details. :p + +Again, main point is that there's more to it than anything I've seen trace +of being discussed or anywhere related to what you say you'd like to +achieve. As "not following mandriva, maintain everything alone, follow rpm.org" +doesn't really answer it much, but rather raises more questions and concerns +over how you intend to succeed (but I honestly don't know you at all, +so you might be full of nice surprises:) and with whom. +I'd be happy to try help the best and be able to make life easier for everyone, +and I'm more interested in this than on what specific distro nor rpm fork +you're using, just as I'm convinced and sure the importance lies much +more in "how to" rather than in "how you're not". + + +"Compatibility" between the two different rpm forks solely alone on their +own independent of distributions is rather trivial to achieve (and usually +already done by both upstreams) and honestly not that big of an issue, +as for how to deal with differences between the individual distributions +gets far more complex again.. + +It's a topic I'm actually doing parts of my thesis around, so if you have +any specific thoughts, ideas, meanings, questions etc. I'd be very +interested, and very happy if finding interest in discussing and working +together with others on. :) +><i> +</I>><i> This is just my opinion but i would like to not see rpm5 thread again +</I>><i> and again, that start for my part to become boring. +</I>If you keep seeing it again and again, maybe it suggests that the +discussion never (sufficiently) took place to begin with and an actual +consensus known to everyone and what based on might be missing +in order to reach any finality on the topic? ;) + +I've only seen threads with questions and quite superficial discussions +not really answering many of them, but it might be my personal +bias affecting critical sense and standards too much.. :p + +Oh well, tried my best being constructive and genuinly helpful, +expecting nothing, but would be positively surprised and happy for +any serious discussion and interest, if discovered! + +Need some sleep to achieve greater consistency, focus and coherency.. +-- +Regards, +Per Øyvind +</PRE> + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="003127.html">[Mageia-dev] Alpha2 iso content +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="003128.html">[Mageia-dev] RPM5 AND MAGEIA +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#3126">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#3126">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#3126">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#3126">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> |