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+ <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
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+ <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1>
+ <B>Maarten Vanraes</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C201012030155.26254.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Fri Dec 3 01:55:26 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>Op donderdag 02 december 2010 08:20:15 schreef andre999:
+&gt;<i> Maarten Vanraes a &#233;crit :
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; Op woensdag 01 december 2010 21:54:48 schreef andre999:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; [...]
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; allthough interesting, this thread is about mirror layout; and is not
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; about removing the distinction between supported packages and not. (this
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; wasn't all that clear to me at first.)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> I'll discuss further down why I think that this is a critical part of
+</I>&gt;<i> the question.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; i do understand that you think other methods of having the distinction
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; might not work; i have reservations myself that way. (i do feel the
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; disctinction is important.)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Glad to see that you understand my concerns.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; i also see that mirror layout should be as easy as possible for mirror
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; admins.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Agreed. However keeping an extra set of repositories for core packages
+</I>&gt;<i> would just add a few extra directories (without changing the number/size
+</I>&gt;<i> of their total content), thus have little impact on mirror administration.
+</I>
+One would think so; however, a few people who replied where mirror
+administrators; and it seems, IIUC that they said it does have impact.
+
+I'm just gonna trust their judgement on this, since they know more about this
+than myself.
+
+[... snipping tainted stuff...]
+&gt;<i> In any case, rsync is a pretty straight-forward application.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; however, looking at the big picture, i think that logically it's sounds
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; to have one purpose to one thing; and thus for the mirror layout; only
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; the mirror admins should be looked at; the viewpoint of a user _should_
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; not really matter.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> I agree that the user viewpoint is not of major importance : I see that
+</I>&gt;<i> as just a positive side effect.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> I am trying to look at the big picture. And perhaps I haven't been very
+</I>&gt;<i> effective at expressing my concerns.
+</I>&gt;<i> In my mind, we should always consider important side effects of major
+</I>&gt;<i> changes. And removing separate &quot;core&quot;/&quot;extra&quot; (or &quot;main&quot;/&quot;contrib&quot;
+</I>&gt;<i> repositories does have an important side effect.
+</I>&gt;<i> Realigning &quot;core&quot; so it is really core should very much help packagers,
+</I>&gt;<i> as well as maintaining an important distinction.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Note that if, down the road, we find another effective method for
+</I>&gt;<i> distinquishing core / non-core, it is relatively simple to transfer
+</I>&gt;<i> packages in &quot;extra&quot; to &quot;core&quot;.
+</I>&gt;<i> But if we eliminate the parallel set of repositories, and find later
+</I>&gt;<i> that we have a problem giving priority to core packages, moving in the
+</I>&gt;<i> other direction would be a much more difficult process.
+</I>
+IIRC someone with experience said in this thread that we could always go to
+that sort of scenario if like this it wouldn't work well. Again, i'm gonna
+trust their judgement on this.
+
+&gt;<i> The suggestion that we only transfer to Mageia packages that we see as
+</I>&gt;<i> important to keep, sounds like a very good approach.
+</I>&gt;<i> This would also facilitate maintaining the core / non-core distinction.
+</I>
+I suppose, however, I think that developers are their own users; they write
+for theirselves; hence people will pull what they think is important for them.
+
+but at the very least, since it's something they will use, it'll at least be
+tested some. (even if QA doesn't test it)
+
+&gt;<i> I'm not trying to say that defining core / non-core in detail is a
+</I>&gt;<i> trivial process. But it is in the interest of Mageia to define it.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> I realise, at least at first, that things will be more difficult for
+</I>&gt;<i> packagers. But firmly believe that this will be largely alleviated by a
+</I>&gt;<i> careful triage of existing &quot;main&quot; and &quot;contrib&quot; packages.
+</I>&gt;<i> Thus I am more than willing to put in a lot of effort, since it will
+</I>&gt;<i> have an important impact on the future of Mageia.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> I also realise that many of those proposing eliminating a set of repos
+</I>&gt;<i> have a lot of valuable experience. And I'm sure that if/when we can
+</I>&gt;<i> agree on this concern, that we will be able to work very well together.
+</I>&gt;<i> And I look forward to becoming a Mageia packager.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> another 2 cents :)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> - Andr&#233;
+</I></PRE>
+
+
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+ <B>Maarten Vanraes</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C201012030156.28792.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Fri Dec 3 01:56:28 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>Op donderdag 02 december 2010 17:43:10 schreef Michael Scherer:
+&gt;<i> Le jeudi 02 d&#233;cembre 2010 &#224; 16:26 +0100, Wolfgang Bornath a &#233;crit :
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; 2010/12/2 Anssi Hannula &lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">anssi.hannula at iki.fi</A>&gt;:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt; For the record, I'm not a big fan of &quot;tainted&quot; name (too negative), but
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt; I can't think of anything better either, so... :)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; I agree, as &quot;restricted&quot; may be misleading former Mandriva users, why
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; not &quot;special&quot; or &quot;extra&quot;?
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; I know there is the name &quot;extra&quot; for some other branch but it may be
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; easier to find another name for that one.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> That would be misleading to the content of the directory.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> What about &quot;limited&quot; ?
+</I>&gt;<i> &quot;restrained&quot; ?
+</I>&gt;<i> ( restrain, to deprive of liberty , seems like the perfect match )
+</I>
+/me likes
+</PRE>
+
+
+
+
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+ <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1>
+ <B>Maarten Vanraes</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C201012030156.41273.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Fri Dec 3 01:56:41 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>Op donderdag 02 december 2010 18:23:35 schreef Leandro Dorileo:
+&gt;<i> On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 12:26 PM, Wolfgang Bornath
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">molch.b at googlemail.com</A>&gt; wrote:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; 2010/12/2 Anssi Hannula &lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">anssi.hannula at iki.fi</A>&gt;:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; For the record, I'm not a big fan of &quot;tainted&quot; name (too negative), but
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; I can't think of anything better either, so... :)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; I agree, as &quot;restricted&quot; may be misleading former Mandriva users, why
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; not &quot;special&quot; or &quot;extra&quot;?
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; I know there is the name &quot;extra&quot; for some other branch but it may be
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; easier to find another name for that one.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> What about &quot;leftover&quot;? or maybe &quot;optional&quot;?
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> regards....
+</I>
+/me likes leftovers
+</PRE>
+
+
+
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+ <B>andre999</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF86CBA.8000607%40laposte.net%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">andr55 at laposte.net
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Fri Dec 3 05:06:18 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>Maarten Vanraes a &#233;crit :
+&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Op donderdag 02 december 2010 17:43:10 schreef Michael Scherer:
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> Le jeudi 02 d&#233;cembre 2010 &#224; 16:26 +0100, Wolfgang Bornath a &#233;crit :
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> 2010/12/2 Anssi Hannula&lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">anssi.hannula at iki.fi</A>&gt;:
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> For the record, I'm not a big fan of &quot;tainted&quot; name (too negative), but
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> I can't think of anything better either, so... :)
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> I agree, as &quot;restricted&quot; may be misleading former Mandriva users, why
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> not &quot;special&quot; or &quot;extra&quot;?
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> I know there is the name &quot;extra&quot; for some other branch but it may be
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> easier to find another name for that one.
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> That would be misleading to the content of the directory.
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> What about &quot;limited&quot; ?
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> &quot;restrained&quot; ?
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> ( restrain, to deprive of liberty , seems like the perfect match )
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> /me likes
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&quot;limited&quot; and &quot;restrained&quot; are both good
+
+</PRE>
+
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+ <B>andre999</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF87B0F.9070806%40laposte.net%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">andr55 at laposte.net
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Fri Dec 3 06:07:27 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>Maarten Vanraes a &#233;crit :
+&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Op donderdag 02 december 2010 08:20:15 schreef andre999:
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> Maarten Vanraes a &#233;crit :
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> Op woensdag 01 december 2010 21:54:48 schreef andre999:
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> [...]
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> i also see that mirror layout should be as easy as possible for mirror
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> admins.
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> Agreed. However keeping an extra set of repositories for core packages
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> would just add a few extra directories (without changing the number/size
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> of their total content), thus have little impact on mirror administration.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> One would think so; however, a few people who replied where mirror
+</I>&gt;<i> administrators; and it seems, IIUC that they said it does have impact.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> I'm just gonna trust their judgement on this, since they know more about this
+</I>&gt;<i> than myself.
+</I>
+Mageia requires mirror sites to use rsync for mirroring.
+Mirroring at least every few hours, if I remember correctly. (I forget
+the other details.)
+
+They need a single line of code, something like
+
+rsync -ra {URL-source-directory} {local-destination-directory}
+
+This is very easy to do : Mageia gives the source URL (and the options
+required), and the mirror site knows the destination directory.
+
+This line of code is put in a cron (or acron) job file, configured to
+run automatically at the specified regular intervals.
+
+If they exclude the optional &quot;tainted&quot; repositories, they have to add an
+&quot;--exclude&quot; option with the relative path to these repositories.
+(Still in a single line.)
+Fairly straight-forward.
+
+Why system admins in multi-mirror sites with lots of other tasks would
+like to avoid optional repositories is that they are probably already
+overloaded with things to do, and adding the exclusion multiplies the
+risk of having a (tiny) error that makes it not work.
+Also, a minor change at the Mageia source could make it stop working.
+The last thing they need is another problem.
+
+&gt;<i> [...]
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> Note that if, down the road, we find another effective method for
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> distinquishing core / non-core, it is relatively simple to transfer
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> packages in &quot;extra&quot; to &quot;core&quot;.
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> But if we eliminate the parallel set of repositories, and find later
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> that we have a problem giving priority to core packages, moving in the
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> other direction would be a much more difficult process.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> IIRC someone with experience said in this thread that we could always go to
+</I>&gt;<i> that sort of scenario if like this it wouldn't work well. Again, i'm gonna
+</I>&gt;<i> trust their judgement on this.
+</I>
+( At least some things said in this thread seem to me more in the line
+of wishful thinking. A bit like &quot;I'm not planning to have an accident,
+so why do I need a seat belt ?&quot; )
+
+I still think it would be better to later remove than add.
+The main problem is that without the separation by repositories, in
+order to ensure full support for core modules, we would need another
+control.
+If we start with separate sets of repositories, that control is already
+there - removing the complication of adding some other control in
+setting up the system.
+Maybe we can find a way of setting up a reliable such control in the
+build system without a too much effort. But it is more effort, subject
+to debugging, etc, as with any new code.
+
+regards
+
+- Andr&#233;
+</PRE>
+
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+ <B>Ahmad Samir</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTinCm6m6eaamKj-rvq4ptc4ky2rL%3DqMND2xvRLB%3D%40mail.gmail.com%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">ahmadsamir3891 at gmail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Fri Dec 3 10:45:05 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>On 2 December 2010 18:43, Michael Scherer &lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">misc at zarb.org</A>&gt; wrote:
+&gt;<i> Le jeudi 02 d&#233;cembre 2010 &#224; 16:26 +0100, Wolfgang Bornath a &#233;crit :
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> 2010/12/2 Anssi Hannula &lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">anssi.hannula at iki.fi</A>&gt;:
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> &gt; For the record, I'm not a big fan of &quot;tainted&quot; name (too negative), but
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> &gt; I can't think of anything better either, so... :)
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> I agree, as &quot;restricted&quot; may be misleading former Mandriva users, why
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> not &quot;special&quot; or &quot;extra&quot;?
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> I know there is the name &quot;extra&quot; for some other branch but it may be
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> easier to find another name for that one.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> That would be misleading to the content of the directory.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> What about &quot;limited&quot; ?
+</I>&gt;<i> &quot;restrained&quot; ?
+</I>&gt;<i> ( restrain, to deprive of liberty , seems like the perfect match )
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> --
+</I>&gt;<i> Michael Scherer
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+limited and restrained don't sound right as they don't fully convey
+the purpose/filtering-rule for packages in that repo....
+
+The kernel uses the word &quot;tainted&quot; when it detects the nvidia
+proprietary module for example, (which admittedly gave me a bit of
+shock the first time I saw it :)).
+
+&gt;<i>From all the proposed names, I think &quot;tainted&quot; is the best one, as the
+</I>packages in there are in a &quot;grey&quot; zone, i.e. not totally illegal
+everywhere, but illegal only in some places in the world. And in
+reality the existence of a patent doesn't necessarily mean it's
+enforceable in a court of law (the only way we'd know for sure is if
+someone actually does try to sue)... my 0.02&#8364; worth :)
+
+--
+Ahmad Samir
+</PRE>
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+ <B>Maarten Vanraes</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C201012031128.26326.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Fri Dec 3 11:28:26 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>Op vrijdag 03 december 2010 10:45:05 schreef Ahmad Samir:
+[...]
+&gt;<i> The kernel uses the word &quot;tainted&quot; when it detects the nvidia
+</I>&gt;<i> proprietary module for example, (which admittedly gave me a bit of
+</I>&gt;<i> shock the first time I saw it :)).
+</I>
+Heh, i had the same reaction.
+
+&gt;<i> From all the proposed names, I think &quot;tainted&quot; is the best one, as the
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> packages in there are in a &quot;grey&quot; zone, i.e. not totally illegal
+</I>&gt;<i> everywhere, but illegal only in some places in the world. And in
+</I>&gt;<i> reality the existence of a patent doesn't necessarily mean it's
+</I>&gt;<i> enforceable in a court of law (the only way we'd know for sure is if
+</I>&gt;<i> someone actually does try to sue)... my 0.02&#8364; worth :)
+</I>
+how about &quot;gray&quot; or &quot;grey&quot; ?
+</PRE>
+
+
+
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+ <B>herman</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C1291399095.15699.1.camel%40athene%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">herman at aeronetworks.ca
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Fri Dec 3 18:58:15 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>On Fri, 2010-12-03 at 03:28 -0700, Maarten Vanraes wrote:
+&gt;<i> how about &quot;gray&quot; or &quot;grey&quot; ?
+</I>
+No, the Speling Nazi's will drive us nuts...
+
+</PRE>
+
+
+
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+ <B>John</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C20101204001808.8d1e7f25.john%40neodoc.biz%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">john at neodoc.biz
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Fri Dec 3 12:18:08 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>On Fri, 3 Dec 2010 11:28:26 +0100
+Maarten Vanraes wrote:
+
+&gt;<i> Op vrijdag 03 december 2010 10:45:05 schreef Ahmad Samir:
+</I>&gt;<i> [...]
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; The kernel uses the word &quot;tainted&quot; when it detects the nvidia
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; proprietary module for example, (which admittedly gave me a bit of
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; shock the first time I saw it :)).
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Heh, i had the same reaction.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; From all the proposed names, I think &quot;tainted&quot; is the best one, as the
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; packages in there are in a &quot;grey&quot; zone, i.e. not totally illegal
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; everywhere, but illegal only in some places in the world. And in
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; reality the existence of a patent doesn't necessarily mean it's
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; enforceable in a court of law (the only way we'd know for sure is if
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; someone actually does try to sue)... my 0.02&#8364; worth :)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> how about &quot;gray&quot; or &quot;grey&quot; ?
+</I>
+'Grayzone' ?
+
+John
+
+</PRE>
+
+
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+ <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff">
+ <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1>
+ <B>Wolfgang Bornath</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTikdMtMcmun9goezMaJqBUn-JH69UGpFC_LEcO-V%40mail.gmail.com%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">molch.b at googlemail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Fri Dec 3 20:05:22 CET 2010</I>
+ <P><UL>
+ <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="001593.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A></li>
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+ <HR>
+<!--beginarticle-->
+<PRE>2010/12/3 John &lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">john at neodoc.biz</A>&gt;:
+&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> 'Grayzone' ?
+</I>
+Mr. Dorian Gray's zone? Or a foggy grey zone?
+(SCNR!)
+
+Hmm, &quot;foggy&quot; sounds nice :)
+Or Foggy Bottom :)
+
+--
+wobo
+</PRE>
+
+<!--endarticle-->
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+ <title>The Mageia-dev 3 December 2010 Archive by author</title>
+ <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="noindex,follow">
+ <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
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+ <a name="start"></A>
+ <h1>3 December 2010 Archives by author</h1>
+ <ul>
+ <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b>
+ <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a>
+ <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a>
+
+ <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a>
+
+ <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More info on this list...
+ </a></b></li>
+ </ul>
+ <p><b>Starting:</b> <i>Fri Dec 3 01:55:26 CET 2010</i><br>
+ <b>Ending:</b> <i>Fri Dec 3 20:05:22 CET 2010</i><br>
+ <b>Messages:</b> 10<p>
+ <ul>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001594.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1594">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Wolfgang Bornath
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001593.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1593">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>John
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001590.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1590">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Ahmad Samir
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001585.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1585">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001586.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1586">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001587.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1587">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001591.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1591">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001588.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1588">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>andre999
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001589.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1589">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>andre999
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001592.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1592">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>herman
+</I>
+
+ </ul>
+ <p>
+ <a name="end"><b>Last message date:</b></a>
+ <i>Fri Dec 3 20:05:22 CET 2010</i><br>
+ <b>Archived on:</b> <i>Fri Dec 3 20:05:27 CET 2010</i>
+ <p>
+ <ul>
+ <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b>
+ <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a>
+ <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a>
+
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+ <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More info on this list...
+ </a></b></li>
+ </ul>
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+
diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101203/date.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101203/date.html
new file mode 100644
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+<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
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+ <HEAD>
+ <title>The Mageia-dev 3 December 2010 Archive by date</title>
+ <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="noindex,follow">
+ <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
+ </HEAD>
+ <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff">
+ <a name="start"></A>
+ <h1>3 December 2010 Archives by date</h1>
+ <ul>
+ <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b>
+ <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a>
+ <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a>
+ <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a>
+
+
+ <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More info on this list...
+ </a></b></li>
+ </ul>
+ <p><b>Starting:</b> <i>Fri Dec 3 01:55:26 CET 2010</i><br>
+ <b>Ending:</b> <i>Fri Dec 3 20:05:22 CET 2010</i><br>
+ <b>Messages:</b> 10<p>
+ <ul>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001585.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1585">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001586.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1586">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001587.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1587">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001588.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1588">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>andre999
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001589.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1589">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>andre999
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001590.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1590">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Ahmad Samir
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001591.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1591">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001593.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1593">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>John
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001592.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1592">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>herman
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001594.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1594">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Wolfgang Bornath
+</I>
+
+ </ul>
+ <p>
+ <a name="end"><b>Last message date:</b></a>
+ <i>Fri Dec 3 20:05:22 CET 2010</i><br>
+ <b>Archived on:</b> <i>Fri Dec 3 20:05:27 CET 2010</i>
+ <p>
+ <ul>
+ <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b>
+ <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a>
+ <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a>
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+
+ <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More info on this list...
+ </a></b></li>
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+
diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101203/index.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101203/index.html
new file mode 120000
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--- /dev/null
+++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101203/index.html
@@ -0,0 +1 @@
+thread.html \ No newline at end of file
diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101203/subject.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101203/subject.html
new file mode 100644
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@@ -0,0 +1,97 @@
+<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
+<HTML>
+ <HEAD>
+ <title>The Mageia-dev 3 December 2010 Archive by subject</title>
+ <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="noindex,follow">
+ <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
+ </HEAD>
+ <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff">
+ <a name="start"></A>
+ <h1>3 December 2010 Archives by subject</h1>
+ <ul>
+ <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b>
+ <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a>
+
+ <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a>
+ <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a>
+
+ <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More info on this list...
+ </a></b></li>
+ </ul>
+ <p><b>Starting:</b> <i>Fri Dec 3 01:55:26 CET 2010</i><br>
+ <b>Ending:</b> <i>Fri Dec 3 20:05:22 CET 2010</i><br>
+ <b>Messages:</b> 10<p>
+ <ul>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001585.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1585">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001586.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1586">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001587.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1587">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001588.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1588">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>andre999
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001589.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1589">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>andre999
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001590.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1590">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Ahmad Samir
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001591.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1591">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001593.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1593">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>John
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001592.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1592">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>herman
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001594.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1594">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Wolfgang Bornath
+</I>
+
+ </ul>
+ <p>
+ <a name="end"><b>Last message date:</b></a>
+ <i>Fri Dec 3 20:05:22 CET 2010</i><br>
+ <b>Archived on:</b> <i>Fri Dec 3 20:05:27 CET 2010</i>
+ <p>
+ <ul>
+ <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b>
+ <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a>
+
+ <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a>
+ <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a>
+ <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More info on this list...
+ </a></b></li>
+ </ul>
+ <p>
+ <hr>
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+ Pipermail 0.09 (Mailman edition).</i>
+ </BODY>
+</HTML>
+
diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101203/thread.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101203/thread.html
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+<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
+<HTML>
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+ <title>The Mageia-dev 3 December 2010 Archive by thread</title>
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+ <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
+ </HEAD>
+ <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff">
+ <a name="start"></A>
+ <h1>3 December 2010 Archives by thread</h1>
+ <ul>
+ <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b>
+
+ <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a>
+ <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a>
+ <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a>
+
+ <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More info on this list...
+ </a></b></li>
+ </ul>
+ <p><b>Starting:</b> <i>Fri Dec 3 01:55:26 CET 2010</i><br>
+ <b>Ending:</b> <i>Fri Dec 3 20:05:22 CET 2010</i><br>
+ <b>Messages:</b> 10<p>
+ <ul>
+
+<!--0 01291337726- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001585.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1585">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<UL>
+<!--1 01291337726-01291352847- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001589.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1589">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>andre999
+</I>
+
+</UL>
+<!--0 01291337788- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001586.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1586">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<UL>
+<!--1 01291337788-01291349178- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001588.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1588">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>andre999
+</I>
+
+</UL>
+<!--0 01291337801- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001587.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1587">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<!--0 01291369505- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001590.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1590">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Ahmad Samir
+</I>
+
+<UL>
+<!--1 01291369505-01291372106- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001591.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1591">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<UL>
+<!--2 01291369505-01291372106-01291375088- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001593.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1593">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>John
+</I>
+
+<UL>
+<!--3 01291369505-01291372106-01291375088-01291403122- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001594.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1594">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Wolfgang Bornath
+</I>
+
+</UL>
+<!--2 01291369505-01291372106-01291399095- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001592.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1592">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>herman
+</I>
+
+</UL>
+</UL>
+ </ul>
+ <p>
+ <a name="end"><b>Last message date:</b></a>
+ <i>Fri Dec 3 20:05:22 CET 2010</i><br>
+ <b>Archived on:</b> <i>Fri Dec 3 20:05:27 CET 2010</i>
+ <p>
+ <ul>
+ <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b>
+
+ <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a>
+ <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a>
+ <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a>
+ <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More info on this list...
+ </a></b></li>
+ </ul>
+ <p>
+ <hr>
+ <i>This archive was generated by
+ Pipermail 0.09 (Mailman edition).</i>
+ </BODY>
+</HTML>
+