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diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/2011-July/006555.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/2011-July/006555.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..39275e5c5 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/2011-July/006555.html @@ -0,0 +1,221 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs? + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Repository%20question%3A%20where%20do%20we%20put%0A%20non-free%2Btainted%20RPMs%3F&In-Reply-To=%3C4E1CB33A.9020708%40laposte.net%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="006529.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="006556.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs?</H1> + <B>andre999</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Repository%20question%3A%20where%20do%20we%20put%0A%20non-free%2Btainted%20RPMs%3F&In-Reply-To=%3C4E1CB33A.9020708%40laposte.net%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs?">andr55 at laposte.net + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Jul 12 22:48:58 CEST 2011</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="006529.html">[Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs? +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="006556.html">[Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs? +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#6555">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#6555">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#6555">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#6555">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : +><i> 2011/7/12 andre999<<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">andr55 at laposte.net</A>>: +</I>>><i> Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> 2011/7/9 andre999<<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">andr55 at laposte.net</A>>: +</I>>>>><i> +</I>>>>><i> Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : +</I>>>>>><i> +</I>>>>>><i> 2011/7/8 Thorsten van Lil<<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">tvl83 at gmx.de</A>>: +</I>>>>>>><i> +</I>>>>>>><i> Am 08.07.2011 10:42, schrieb Wolfgang Bornath: +</I>>>>>>>><i> +</I>>>>>>>><i> 2011/7/8 James Kerr<<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">jim at jkerr82508.free-online.co.uk</A>>: +</I>>>>>>>>><i> +</I>>>>>>>>><i> This thread has strayed far from the original question, which could +</I>>>>>>>>><i> be +</I>>>>>>>>><i> re-stated as: +</I>>>>>>>>><i> +</I>>>>>>>>><i> Should tainted free software and tainted nonfree software be +</I>>>>>>>>><i> commingled +</I>>>>>>>>><i> in a +</I>>>>>>>>><i> single tainted repository? +</I>>>>>>>><i> +</I>>>>>>>><i> How can tainted software be free software at the same time? +</I>>>>>>>><i> +</I>>>>>>><i> +</I>>>>>>><i> Because free is a matter of license, while tainted is a matter of +</I>>>>>>><i> patents. +</I>>>>>>><i> For example, the libdvdcss2 is free, as the the source-code is open +</I>>>>>>><i> (GPL) +</I>>>>>>><i> but it touches the patent issue, so it's tainted. +</I>>>>>><i> +</I>>>>>><i> Yes, if you regard patents not as a criterium for free or non-free +</I>>>>>><i> then this division makes sense. +</I>>>>>>><i> +</I>>>>>>><i> From that point of view we need the same structure as PLF +</I>>>>>><i> +</I>>>>>><i> (tainted-free and tainted-non-free). +</I>>>>><i> +</I>>>>><i> As well, the question of patent claims is a totally hypothetical problem, +</I>>>>><i> in +</I>>>>><i> almost every country -- including the USA -- for mirrors that carry +</I>>>>><i> distros +</I>>>>><i> like Mageia. +</I>>>>><i> (In the USA, the patent office used to systematically refuse patent +</I>>>>><i> claims +</I>>>>><i> on software. And patents are only examined for conflicting US patents +</I>>>>><i> before being registered. Not for the acceptability of the patent +</I>>>>><i> itself.) +</I>>>>><i> +</I>>>>><i> So basically, tainted is for the benefit of those who would like to +</I>>>>><i> support +</I>>>>><i> software patents. +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> You say that people who obey to the laws of their country are to blame +</I>>>><i> for obeying these laws? That's ridiculous. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> It is not at all a question of obeying laws. +</I>>><i> A patent is granted to give certain civil rights on the part of the patent +</I>>><i> holder, for original developments, that are not obvious from existing +</I>>><i> knowledge. The idea is to encourage innovation by protecting the +</I>>><i> investments made by innovators. +</I>>><i> Because patents are granted essentially on the basis of not conflicting with +</I>>><i> other patents (especially software patents), there is no assurance that a +</I>>><i> patent is valid at all. Patents on software are particularly problematic, +</I>>><i> as software is based on logic, and what is obvious from existing knowledge +</I>>><i> is not necessarily apparent to those not in the computer field. It most +</I>>><i> countries such patents are denied. +</I>>><i> In the USA, patents on software are (at least sometimes) accepted, most +</I>>><i> patent claims are not supported by the courts. In other words, they are not +</I>>><i> valid. +</I>>><i> If you had read the reference, you should have understood that. +</I>>><i> +</I>>>><i> The fact that nobody (in FOSS community) has been called to court yet +</I>>>><i> does not mean that the related laws do not exist! +</I>>>><i> The Debian paper (Romain linked to) has an answer to the reasons. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Which clearly indicates that the risk is minimal in the countries where such +</I>>><i> a risk exists. According to the report, no cases to date against FOSS +</I>>><i> software, distributed by non-commercial entities. Basically my point. +</I>>><i> It also warns against paranoia about patents. +</I>>><i> This paranoia seems to me a bit like never crossing a street because one +</I>>><i> might get run over by a bus. Even if one crosses in a marked crosswalk. +</I>>><i> +</I>>>><i> Besides, tainted is not only about patents, it's also about software +</I>>>><i> which is illegal in certain countries (like libdvdcss). +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Ok, a relatively limited application. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> So in all, maybe a handful of packages at most should be in tainted. +</I>>><i> So why do we have more than 150 ? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Sorry, but I do not understand your way of thinking. If a law exists +</I>><i> it exists. It does not matter to a law whether it is likely to be +</I>><i> enforced. Period. +</I> +True. But patents have nothing to do with enforcing laws. + +><i> This is not paranoia, it is a matter of mind set. If robbery would not +</I>><i> be prosecuted, would you go out and earn your doe by taking away +</I>><i> handbags from old ladies? You would not, because it is wrong. For +</I>><i> those who are living in countries where patents are valid and accepted +</I>><i> by the law, using a patented software is wrong. So you must accept +</I>><i> that there are people who would not do it. Telling them how they +</I>><i> should think about it is not ours. That's why we have the tainted +</I>><i> repo. +</I> +In my mind, this argument misses the concept of software patents. +Firstly, patents are not laws. They are civil rights granted in exchange for +encouraging innovation. +However patents on software are granted without ensuring that the patents are +valid. (At least in the USA.) There is only a check on conflicts with other +patents. This is easy to understand, as validating patents on software is +quasi-impossible without considerable time and expense. Which is probably why +most countries do not accept software patents. + +Software patents in fact discourage innovation, going against the basic +justification of patents. +In practice, virtually all software patents in the USA are found to be invalid, +when contested in the courts. Usually a form of costly legal harcelling is +used to extract royalties, from companies with deep pockets. + +Note that patents are nothing more than a civil right, akin to trespassing. +So if someone walks up your sidewalk to knock on your door, would you accuse +them of trespassing ? I doubt it. +And I don't think that I would want to have such a neighbour. +A patent holder is not required to procecute, and in certain cases _not_ +procecuting is very much in the interest of the patent holder. +Such as distributors of open source source software, who will tend to spread +the use of the particular functionality referred to by the patent. + +For all these reasons, I think that it is much more appropriate to wait to be +approached by the patent holder. +(If not ourselves, then some other distro.) +And if that means that our constrained ("tainted") repos are almost empty, +wouldn't that simplify things ? + +--- +I noticed that all packages in "tainted" contain ".tainted." in the name. +rsync permits adding the option +--exclude '.tainted.' +to permit excluding such packages if a mirror wants to. + +So we could eliminate the "tainted" repos, to facilitate putting packages in +core or non-free as appropriate. +There may have to be a few adjustments to show (or not) the packages tagged +"tainted", but that shouldn't be difficult. +Wouldn't that be easier ? + +(At the same time, we could choose a name that doesn't indicate that there is +something intrinsically wrong with the package.) + +Regards :) +-- +André +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="006529.html">[Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs? +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="006556.html">[Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs? +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#6555">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#6555">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#6555">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#6555">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> |