1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
|
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs?
</TITLE>
<LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" >
<LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Repository%20question%3A%20where%20do%20we%20put%0A%20non-free%2Btainted%20RPMs%3F&In-Reply-To=%3C4E1CB33A.9020708%40laposte.net%3E">
<META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow">
<META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<LINK REL="Previous" HREF="006529.html">
<LINK REL="Next" HREF="006556.html">
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff">
<H1>[Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs?</H1>
<B>andre999</B>
<A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Repository%20question%3A%20where%20do%20we%20put%0A%20non-free%2Btainted%20RPMs%3F&In-Reply-To=%3C4E1CB33A.9020708%40laposte.net%3E"
TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs?">andr55 at laposte.net
</A><BR>
<I>Tue Jul 12 22:48:58 CEST 2011</I>
<P><UL>
<LI>Previous message: <A HREF="006529.html">[Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs?
</A></li>
<LI>Next message: <A HREF="006556.html">[Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs?
</A></li>
<LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B>
<a href="date.html#6555">[ date ]</a>
<a href="thread.html#6555">[ thread ]</a>
<a href="subject.html#6555">[ subject ]</a>
<a href="author.html#6555">[ author ]</a>
</LI>
</UL>
<HR>
<!--beginarticle-->
<PRE>Wolfgang Bornath a écrit :
><i> 2011/7/12 andre999<<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">andr55 at laposte.net</A>>:
</I>>><i> Wolfgang Bornath a écrit :
</I>>>><i>
</I>>>><i> 2011/7/9 andre999<<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">andr55 at laposte.net</A>>:
</I>>>>><i>
</I>>>>><i> Wolfgang Bornath a écrit :
</I>>>>>><i>
</I>>>>>><i> 2011/7/8 Thorsten van Lil<<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">tvl83 at gmx.de</A>>:
</I>>>>>>><i>
</I>>>>>>><i> Am 08.07.2011 10:42, schrieb Wolfgang Bornath:
</I>>>>>>>><i>
</I>>>>>>>><i> 2011/7/8 James Kerr<<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">jim at jkerr82508.free-online.co.uk</A>>:
</I>>>>>>>>><i>
</I>>>>>>>>><i> This thread has strayed far from the original question, which could
</I>>>>>>>>><i> be
</I>>>>>>>>><i> re-stated as:
</I>>>>>>>>><i>
</I>>>>>>>>><i> Should tainted free software and tainted nonfree software be
</I>>>>>>>>><i> commingled
</I>>>>>>>>><i> in a
</I>>>>>>>>><i> single tainted repository?
</I>>>>>>>><i>
</I>>>>>>>><i> How can tainted software be free software at the same time?
</I>>>>>>>><i>
</I>>>>>>><i>
</I>>>>>>><i> Because free is a matter of license, while tainted is a matter of
</I>>>>>>><i> patents.
</I>>>>>>><i> For example, the libdvdcss2 is free, as the the source-code is open
</I>>>>>>><i> (GPL)
</I>>>>>>><i> but it touches the patent issue, so it's tainted.
</I>>>>>><i>
</I>>>>>><i> Yes, if you regard patents not as a criterium for free or non-free
</I>>>>>><i> then this division makes sense.
</I>>>>>>><i>
</I>>>>>>><i> From that point of view we need the same structure as PLF
</I>>>>>><i>
</I>>>>>><i> (tainted-free and tainted-non-free).
</I>>>>><i>
</I>>>>><i> As well, the question of patent claims is a totally hypothetical problem,
</I>>>>><i> in
</I>>>>><i> almost every country -- including the USA -- for mirrors that carry
</I>>>>><i> distros
</I>>>>><i> like Mageia.
</I>>>>><i> (In the USA, the patent office used to systematically refuse patent
</I>>>>><i> claims
</I>>>>><i> on software. And patents are only examined for conflicting US patents
</I>>>>><i> before being registered. Not for the acceptability of the patent
</I>>>>><i> itself.)
</I>>>>><i>
</I>>>>><i> So basically, tainted is for the benefit of those who would like to
</I>>>>><i> support
</I>>>>><i> software patents.
</I>>>><i>
</I>>>><i> You say that people who obey to the laws of their country are to blame
</I>>>><i> for obeying these laws? That's ridiculous.
</I>>><i>
</I>>><i> It is not at all a question of obeying laws.
</I>>><i> A patent is granted to give certain civil rights on the part of the patent
</I>>><i> holder, for original developments, that are not obvious from existing
</I>>><i> knowledge. The idea is to encourage innovation by protecting the
</I>>><i> investments made by innovators.
</I>>><i> Because patents are granted essentially on the basis of not conflicting with
</I>>><i> other patents (especially software patents), there is no assurance that a
</I>>><i> patent is valid at all. Patents on software are particularly problematic,
</I>>><i> as software is based on logic, and what is obvious from existing knowledge
</I>>><i> is not necessarily apparent to those not in the computer field. It most
</I>>><i> countries such patents are denied.
</I>>><i> In the USA, patents on software are (at least sometimes) accepted, most
</I>>><i> patent claims are not supported by the courts. In other words, they are not
</I>>><i> valid.
</I>>><i> If you had read the reference, you should have understood that.
</I>>><i>
</I>>>><i> The fact that nobody (in FOSS community) has been called to court yet
</I>>>><i> does not mean that the related laws do not exist!
</I>>>><i> The Debian paper (Romain linked to) has an answer to the reasons.
</I>>><i>
</I>>><i> Which clearly indicates that the risk is minimal in the countries where such
</I>>><i> a risk exists. According to the report, no cases to date against FOSS
</I>>><i> software, distributed by non-commercial entities. Basically my point.
</I>>><i> It also warns against paranoia about patents.
</I>>><i> This paranoia seems to me a bit like never crossing a street because one
</I>>><i> might get run over by a bus. Even if one crosses in a marked crosswalk.
</I>>><i>
</I>>>><i> Besides, tainted is not only about patents, it's also about software
</I>>>><i> which is illegal in certain countries (like libdvdcss).
</I>>><i>
</I>>><i> Ok, a relatively limited application.
</I>>><i>
</I>>><i> So in all, maybe a handful of packages at most should be in tainted.
</I>>><i> So why do we have more than 150 ?
</I>><i>
</I>><i> Sorry, but I do not understand your way of thinking. If a law exists
</I>><i> it exists. It does not matter to a law whether it is likely to be
</I>><i> enforced. Period.
</I>
True. But patents have nothing to do with enforcing laws.
><i> This is not paranoia, it is a matter of mind set. If robbery would not
</I>><i> be prosecuted, would you go out and earn your doe by taking away
</I>><i> handbags from old ladies? You would not, because it is wrong. For
</I>><i> those who are living in countries where patents are valid and accepted
</I>><i> by the law, using a patented software is wrong. So you must accept
</I>><i> that there are people who would not do it. Telling them how they
</I>><i> should think about it is not ours. That's why we have the tainted
</I>><i> repo.
</I>
In my mind, this argument misses the concept of software patents.
Firstly, patents are not laws. They are civil rights granted in exchange for
encouraging innovation.
However patents on software are granted without ensuring that the patents are
valid. (At least in the USA.) There is only a check on conflicts with other
patents. This is easy to understand, as validating patents on software is
quasi-impossible without considerable time and expense. Which is probably why
most countries do not accept software patents.
Software patents in fact discourage innovation, going against the basic
justification of patents.
In practice, virtually all software patents in the USA are found to be invalid,
when contested in the courts. Usually a form of costly legal harcelling is
used to extract royalties, from companies with deep pockets.
Note that patents are nothing more than a civil right, akin to trespassing.
So if someone walks up your sidewalk to knock on your door, would you accuse
them of trespassing ? I doubt it.
And I don't think that I would want to have such a neighbour.
A patent holder is not required to procecute, and in certain cases _not_
procecuting is very much in the interest of the patent holder.
Such as distributors of open source source software, who will tend to spread
the use of the particular functionality referred to by the patent.
For all these reasons, I think that it is much more appropriate to wait to be
approached by the patent holder.
(If not ourselves, then some other distro.)
And if that means that our constrained ("tainted") repos are almost empty,
wouldn't that simplify things ?
---
I noticed that all packages in "tainted" contain ".tainted." in the name.
rsync permits adding the option
--exclude '.tainted.'
to permit excluding such packages if a mirror wants to.
So we could eliminate the "tainted" repos, to facilitate putting packages in
core or non-free as appropriate.
There may have to be a few adjustments to show (or not) the packages tagged
"tainted", but that shouldn't be difficult.
Wouldn't that be easier ?
(At the same time, we could choose a name that doesn't indicate that there is
something intrinsically wrong with the package.)
Regards :)
--
André
</PRE>
<!--endarticle-->
<HR>
<P><UL>
<!--threads-->
<LI>Previous message: <A HREF="006529.html">[Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs?
</A></li>
<LI>Next message: <A HREF="006556.html">[Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs?
</A></li>
<LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B>
<a href="date.html#6555">[ date ]</a>
<a href="thread.html#6555">[ thread ]</a>
<a href="subject.html#6555">[ subject ]</a>
<a href="author.html#6555">[ author ]</a>
</LI>
</UL>
<hr>
<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev
mailing list</a><br>
</body></html>
|
