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<TITLE> [Mageia-webteam] [Bug 1956] Can not edit posts in forum (after timeout)
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<H1>[Mageia-webteam] [Bug 1956] Can not edit posts in forum (after timeout)</H1>
<B>Barry Jackson</B>
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TITLE="[Mageia-webteam] [Bug 1956] Can not edit posts in forum (after timeout)">bugzilla-daemon at mageia.org
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<I>Wed Jul 6 01:07:58 CEST 2011</I>
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<PRE><A HREF="https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1956">https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1956</A>
--- Comment #14 from Barry Jackson <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-webteam">zen25000 at zen.co.uk</A>> 2011-07-06 01:07:58 CEST ---
(In reply to comment #13)
><i>
</I>><i> Then let's see if we can do better here with objective arguments.
</I>><i>
</I>That would be good - but if nothing will be done after then it's a waste of
time.
><i>
</I>><i> > > > and little or no consideration of the utility of the Forum as a research resource
</I>><i> > > > for users and of the fact that this limit can make life difficult for those people
</I>><i> > > > who spend time providing assistance to other users.
</I>><i> >
</I>><i> > Exactly
</I>><i> >
</I>><i>
</I>><i> On the contrary : BIG consideration was given to this point. But these special
</I>><i> users that are helping others on a regular basis are not common users.
</I>
Yes, in most cases they are.
><i> As packagers or translators, or sysadmin are not common users either. All
</I>><i> follow
</I>><i> mentoring process and are given the proper privileges once they have been
</I>><i> considered ready to do their jobs without help or control...
</I>
You misunderstand forums - regular users helping each other.
><i>
</I>><i> Users that write tutorials or that helps others on a regular basis can be
</I>><i> granted the proper privileges to edit own posts or other posts without
</I>><i> limitation.
</I>
Oh boy - this just gets worse.
><i> (Well for this point of posts needing permanent edition like
</I>><i> tutorials... see later doc-tool part which is a discussion)
</I>><i>
</I>><i> But on a default basis no-one with common sense would give root password on the
</I>><i> servers or allow Mr Unknown to push whatever package he wants to the official
</I>><i> repositories... well on a less critical context users privileges on official
</I>><i> forums need obviously to follow similar scheme as other teams.
</I>
Well, anyone can edit the wiki
><i>
</I>><i> Roughy :
</I>><i>
</I>><i> => Read only of topics for everybody (opensource way)
</I>><i> => Comment / Create topics for common subscribers
</I>><i> => More privileges for active forums contributors (like people helping others
</I>><i> on a regular basis or writing tutorials, or packagers that make the effort to
</I>><i> come to help users...) privileges that can vary depending of contributors
</I>><i> needs/activities.
</I>><i>
</I>><i>
</I>><i> > > You have to distinguish the forum-as-a-discussion-place (where keeping posts in
</I>><i> > > their original form is crucial) and the forum-as-a-support/doc-tool-place
</I>><i> > > (where obsoleting/updating posts, with update timestamps is crucial as well).
</I>><i> > >
</I>><i> > > Both have their own contingencies and may be best served by distinct platform
</I>><i> > > (the former is more in phpBB's original purpose, the latter more in an
</I>><i> > > equivalent to <A HREF="http://stackoverflow.com/">http://stackoverflow.com/</A> platform).
</I>><i> > >
</I>><i> > > If those are to be served by the same platform, that makes several use cases to
</I>><i> > > satisfy. And here obviously, the forum was first thought as a discussion
</I>><i> > > platform.
</I>><i> >
</I>><i> > Well no actually :-
</I>><i> > <A HREF="http://www.mageia.org/en/support/">http://www.mageia.org/en/support/</A>
</I>><i> >
</I>><i> > This shows the forum as primarily a "support forum" not as a discussion place.
</I>><i> >
</I>><i>
</I>><i> There is njon contradiction there : Many projects use bugtrackers like Buzilla
</I>><i> as a support system (others use mailing lists or Sourceforge/Savannah embedded
</I>><i> miniforums). All those don't allow late edition. And very few consider that
</I>><i> abnormal :)
</I>
I'm not concerned with those. This is about the Mageia users forum.
><i>
</I>><i> Support IS discussion and nothing more :)
</I>><i> but at the moment the forum is (i confirm) more thought
</I>><i> as a discussion/support platform thant a doc/tool/publication one.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> (We can also consider to change this during discussions)
</I>><i>
</I>><i> > >
</I>><i> > > So you may of course argue of the contrary, but arguing won't lead as far as
</I>><i> > > really giving a hand, joining the team and helping to better configure the
</I>><i> > > team, the platform, and if needed, a distinct platform.
</I>><i> > >
</I>><i> >
</I>><i> > By reporting this bug the intention was to give a hand at improving the forum
</I>><i> > by making the job of those prepared to help and offer support easier.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> Well, at the moment if you have a true need to edit your posts because they
</I>><i> look like
</I>><i> tiny tutos/guides/howtos and because you prefer to work on the forum for these
</I>><i> publication
</I>><i> we can start an experimentation with you (specific user role like tutorial
</I>><i> writer and/or specific
</I>><i> forum area with a name to be defined) and see if the result is positive / users
</I>><i> feedback...
</I>
No thanks - I would just like this bug fixed.
><i>
</I>><i> > Likewise with <A HREF="https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1188">https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1188</A> which has also
</I>><i> > fallen on stony ground.
</I>><i> >
</I>><i>
</I>><i> It did not...
</I>
Yes it did - no action has been taken.
><i> but i'm not sure doing the reqested change bring more good than
</I>><i> harm.
</I>
Again - just your decision.
><i> (It can be reverted though if we have many users complainig and it will not put
</I>><i> topic
</I>><i> flow at risk on the contrary of edition privileges)
</I>><i>
</I>
Many users already spoke in that bug.
And how on earth could a reply notification spoil topic flow - lack of one just
ruins it as the people in the topic don't know that there has been an answer.
><i>
</I>><i> In my opinion it IS expected behavior : if you push words to the world (IRL
</I>><i> speaking, or in mail or ir instant messaging) noone could expect to be able to
</I>><i> get back in the future to erase the said words.
</I>
I give up... sigh
><i>
</I>><i> In a forum if you say something and that people refer to it later in the topic
</I>><i> (or elsewhere in personal blogs or bugtrackers or whatever) They expect the
</I>><i> targeted post not to change because if it changes drastically their answers
</I>><i> would loose sense. And that is not what one should expect.
</I>><i>
</I>
Well I do expect it - and if I change something I make it obvious and also
consider the impact on following posts.
><i>
</I>><i> > This bug report is not about politics but simply about the time limit on the
</I>><i> > editing of posts.
</I>><i> >
</I>><i> > Can we put the politics to one side and discuss just the bug please?
</I>><i> >
</I>><i>
</I>><i> Then you have technical and objective arguments on the matter itself here :)
</I>><i>
</I>><i> And for the "valid" reasons you gave :
</I>><i>
</I>><i> (In reply to comment #0)
</I>><i> > There are many valid reasons why it may be necessary to edit a post.
</I>><i> >
</I>><i> > 1. It imparts incorrect information.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> It could also allow to break valid information (think for example of spammers
</I>><i> that could post unharmful links like screenshots with basic user question then
</I>><i> change them 3 weeks later to push viagra or whatever)
</I>><i>
</I>
Now that's what mods are for.
><i> > 2. The information is out of date.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> For this a later post is a better way because a big change on out of date
</I>><i> information would result in many posts making no sense (like "hey the link is
</I>><i> broken : here is the good one").
</I>><i>
</I>
That depends on the person making the change having some sense - something
which you seem to feel that no one else has.
><i> Further, sometimes the date can be still valid for some users or some versions
</I>><i> of software (think that people don't always follow the update rythm... changing
</I>><i> the data to match new versions would deprivate them from the original post
</I>><i> which is what they need)
</I>><i>
</I>
Not always.
><i> For that editors discipline is the only solution (choosing between new post
</I>><i> and/or update with a proper changelog so that users can know that the post was
</I>><i> edited when and why...)
</I>><i>
</I>
Exactly - so where is the problem?
><i> And we would not expect such discipline from every user...
</I>
Here we go again - users are idiots - we must protect the world from them -
attitude.
><i> so we come back to
</I>><i> mentoring process and dedicated privileges for users that will play by the
</I>><i> rules...
</I>
So now I need mentoring to use a forum in the way that I have used it in
Mandriva for the last 2-3 years?
><i>
</I>><i> > 3. A minor edit would improve comprehension.
</I>><i> >
</I>><i>
</I>><i> For tutorials and things like that yes... but do we want forums to host such
</I>><i> pieces of valuable information ? (See wiki vs forums discussion here above)
</I>
Again - anyone can edit a wiki without mentoring
><i>
</I>><i> For discussions : better explain later so that posts of users asking for
</I>><i> precision do not loose sense.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> > In all these cases it is not appropriate to add another post to offer a
</I>><i> > correction as it may be several pages from the original post, also the
</I>><i> > incorrect post would still be available to be read.
</I>><i> >
</I>><i>
</I>><i> Well as said above, it is often better to have access to the original post
</I>><i> (wich is not necessarily "incorrect") so that the logic flow of the following
</I>><i> post is not broken. (Again: except for reference posts like tutos).
</I>><i>
</I>
Again, users are quite capable of deciding what is appropriate.
><i>
</I>><i> > Forum posts are searched and used to solve problems in a similar way to the
</I>><i> > wiki.
</I>><i> > Imagine the author not being able to edit a wiki entry.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> Yes but we DO HAVE a wiki and the forum is not necessarily supposed to compete
</I>><i> with it... if you try to push the idea of having long life piece of information
</I>><i> on the forum you'll have to pass over the dead bodies of wikis advocates :o)
</I>><i>
</I>
Users are always pushed to search the forum for the answer to a problem before
posting - what are they looking for if it's not information?
><i>
</I>><i> > BTW I tried to get a post modified by reporting it to the mods with clear
</I>><i> > instructions about what needed changing and it's now at 3 days and counting
</I>><i> > with no response.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> You have had your post modified... there is still a mod we to finish (because
</I>><i> nothin fit our needs for that) to accelerate processing of reports. Once done
</I>><i> you'll wait far less.
</I>
Thank you, yes and it did not cause any of the supposedly negative issues that
you raised earlier, and neither would it if I had done it myself.
><i>
</I>><i> And for making a topic as Sloved a mod is also on it's way : so no need for
</I>><i> edition on this aspect :)
</I>
And will you be able to un-solve it as well if the problem re-appears, as can
often be the case?
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