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<H1>[Mageia-dev] RPM5 AND MAGEIA</H1>
<B>Thomas Spuhler</B>
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TITLE="[Mageia-dev] RPM5 AND MAGEIA">thomas at btspuhler.com
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<I>Tue Mar 29 03:18:58 CEST 2011</I>
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<PRE>On Tuesday, March 08, 2011 11:38:21 am Anne nicolas wrote:
><i> 2011/3/8 Per Øyvind Karlsen <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">peroyvind at mandriva.org</A>>:
</I>><i> > 2011/3/3 Buchan Milne <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">bgmilne at staff.telkomsa.net</A>>:
</I>><i> >> ----- "devzero2000" <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">devzero2000 at rpm5.org</A>> wrote:
</I>><i> >>> Apart from the rest - of which i will ask for sponsorship when it
</I>><i> >>> will
</I>><i> >>> be - I wanted to know if there are plans to move to rpm5 by Mageia,
</I>><i> >>> such as Mandriva has been doing lately.
</I>><i> >>>
</I>><i> >>>
</I>><i> >>> Rpm5 already has a builtbot
</I>><i> >>> with Magela and rpm5. I can, if you can think useful or have plan for
</I>><i> >>> this, lay the necessary modification to enter into rpm5 Mageia, with
</I>><i> >>> the features of Mandriva cooker - fingerprint, syslog, etc. without
</I>><i> >>> trademark ecc- and produce a first rpm rpm5 for mageia , which also
</I>><i> >>> contains the functionality required by the passage to the "RPM
</I>><i> >>> ACID " feauture (berkeley db conversion)
</I>><i> >>
</I>><i> >> But, can you:
</I>><i> >> -ensure that all valid packages that build under rpm-4.x (e.g. in
</I>><i> >> Mandriva 2010.x) will build under rpm5? -ensure that all valid packages
</I>><i> >> that install under rpm-4.x will install under rpm-4.x?
</I>><i> >
</I>><i> > No and no (I'm assuming you mean "install under rpm5 will install
</I>><i> > under rpm-4.x").
</I>><i> > Such guarantees has never been provided with any other rpm versions
</I>><i> > either and would effectively prevent the possibility of doing any
</I>><i> > serious development
</I>><i> > and improvement on rpm itself and packaging.
</I>><i> >
</I>><i> > There's a reason for having backports and why we don't even try aiming
</I>><i> > at such goals either.
</I>><i> >
</I>><i> > If able to give any such guarantees with rpm.org on Mageia you gotta be
</I>><i> > either stupid, insane or a damn liar! ;p
</I>><i> >
</I>><i> > The guarantees and priorities is as always:
</I>><i> > * legacy compatibility for older packages
</I>><i> > (opposed to future compatibility gets kinda hard with the the whole
</I>><i> > time travelling issue and limitations attached to it making future
</I>><i> > hard to reliably
</I>><i> > define;)
</I>><i> > * backportability of current packages
</I>><i> > packages needs to be adapted to follow current policies, practice,
</I>><i> > functionality etc. in the current distribution, while efforts in
</I>><i> > ensuring
</I>><i> > possibility of backports
</I>><i> > needs to be invested in the packaging and adopting along the way rather
</I>><i> > than keep adapting rpm to stay compatible with the packaging which gets
</I>><i> > rather backwards.
</I>><i> >
</I>><i> > Very few changes results in breakage for backports, and where it happens
</I>><i> > it's easy enough to add conditional behaviour, nothing new forcing any
</I>><i> > real changes in long-established practices here..
</I>><i> > Much of the same breakages and issues you hit, you'll hit just as well in
</I>><i> > newer versions from rpm.org as well..
</I>><i> >
</I>><i> >> There is no document specifying what has changed, or even when
</I>><i> >> highlighting changes, no-one (@rpm5.org, or @mandriva.com) has bothered
</I>><i> >> to list them so that contributors can save time instead of
</I>><i> >> troubleshooting breakage.
</I>><i> >>
</I>><i> >> Some issues that have impacted me so far:
</I>><i> >> -changed behaviour of %exclude
</I>><i> >
</I>><i> > Ambiguity on %exclude usage is a clear bug, %exclude which is solely
</I>><i> > intended for
</I>><i> > excluding files from a specific package (rather than from being packaged
</I>><i> > at all. removing files at end of %install already fit this purpose
</I>><i> > sufficiently, which should
</I>><i> > make it obvious to most people with understanding of doing technical
</I>><i> > designs in general that wiring already existing functionality into an
</I>><i> > existing function with
</I>><i> > different functionality wouldn't make sense. Also this bug was fixed
</I>><i> > since in later
</I>><i> > releases such as 4.4.6 & 4.4.8 shipped before the rpm.org change, and
</I>><i> > should rather be treated as a regression.) predates the unpackaged files
</I>><i> > check and should *not* be used for other purposes.
</I>><i> > Fixing this is in packaging is *very* trivial and fully backwards
</I>><i> > compatible, not
</I>><i> > fixing this OTOH breaks compatibility.
</I>><i> >
</I>><i> >> -new reserved macros (%sql)
</I>><i> >
</I>><i> > all new macros introduced has the potential of conflicting with others
</I>><i> > and should
</I>><i> > always be fixed, it being reserved is more a benefit IMO as it prevents
</I>><i> > such incidents to go unnoticed (using very generic naming for macros is
</I>><i> > a bad practice in general anyways)..
</I>><i> > fixing this does not break any compatibility either ;)
</I>><i> >
</I>><i> >> -possible race condition between %__os_install_post and processing of
</I>><i> >> %files (.lzma man pages reported missing where they are in fact .xz)
</I>><i> >
</I>><i> > your own packaging mistake independent of rpm version, explained on
</I>><i> > cooker and fixed for you already ;)
</I>><i> >
</I>><i> >> (and of course, the unavailability of the build system - during one of
</I>><i> >> the periods I had the most time to work on packages - due to the rpm5
</I>><i> >> "upgrade")
</I>><i> >>
</I>><i> >> rpm5 has wasted more than half of the time I could afford to contribute
</I>><i> >> to Mandriva. It seems Mandriva has resources to waste, I don't think we
</I>><i> >> have.
</I>><i> >
</I>><i> > you gotta put short-term and long-term effects up against eachother.
</I>><i> > breakages were already expected long before starting the upgrade, and
</I>><i> > the
</I>><i> > majority of these
</I>><i> > were actually rather in various tools etc. related to rpm rather than
</I>><i> > in rpm itself.
</I>><i> > The existing situation made it hard to maintain and do development of
</I>><i> > rpm in distribution,
</I>><i> > packaging and on a the various tools due to being left with since-long
</I>><i> > unmaintained
</I>><i> > tools used (ie. the older version of the perl bindings that only mandriva
</I>><i> > uses and that has been rewritten from scratch since and actively
</I>><i> > maintained upstream as well) and having to keep work around it and
</I>><i> > moving further and further away from "standard" rpm packaging by keep
</I>><i> > introducing any new functionality, scripts, macros etc. as distro
</I>><i> > specific and harder to collaborate with others on..
</I>><i> >
</I>><i> > You gotta break a few eggs..
</I>><i> > Issues hit in Mandriva gets fixed along the way in both cooker and
</I>><i> > upstream in parallel, making extremely few of them of any big concerns
</I>><i> > for other to worry about later.
</I>><i> > Maintenance and development of various tools, packaging etc. and dealing
</I>><i> > with your existing and future issues experienced is something you'll be
</I>><i> > left to deal with alone though..
</I>><i> > Considering the *major* amount of time and work invested in r&d
</I>><i> > historically always being on Mandriva's end with almost all developers
</I>><i> > employed to work on it full time. The harsh reality of trying to keep
</I>><i> > this up with only a few of these working on it during their limited
</I>><i> > spare time should be obvious.. You're entitled to the freedom of not
</I>><i> > showing any interest in sharing efforts on any of these things (and for
</I>><i> > yourself to blame;), at least you're made aware of competence, skills,
</I>><i> > interest and resources that's been offered and is still available to
</I>><i> > you. :)
</I>><i> >
</I>><i> >> (At present, I am not sure if I will continue to maintain packages in
</I>><i> >> Mandriva, the ones where I need newer packages on non-Mandriva at work
</I>><i> >> which I currently maintain in Mandriva and then rebuild I will maintain
</I>><i> >> for the present, but ones I don't need for work may languish ...)
</I>><i> >
</I>><i> > (Sorry for slow reponse and late reply..:/)
</I>><i>
</I>><i> Thanks for your inputs. Decision was taken some weeks ago and we will
</I>><i> follow it for now. You may have very good reasons on your side, please
</I>><i> respect ours.
</I>
Let Mandriva work out the kinks and we can reconsider it after the release.
There is no need to have two distributions work on them
--
Thomas
</PRE>
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