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<H1>[Mageia-dev] RPM5 AND MAGEIA</H1>
<B>Anne nicolas</B>
<A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20RPM5%20AND%20MAGEIA&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTi%3DbDJJfRFA-1Q7MpRy%2Bx-rpKHzKYqyNYf-cPxyj%40mail.gmail.com%3E"
TITLE="[Mageia-dev] RPM5 AND MAGEIA">ennael1 at gmail.com
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<I>Tue Mar 8 19:38:21 CET 2011</I>
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<PRE>2011/3/8 Per Øyvind Karlsen <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">peroyvind at mandriva.org</A>>:
><i> 2011/3/3 Buchan Milne <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">bgmilne at staff.telkomsa.net</A>>:
</I>>><i>
</I>>><i> ----- "devzero2000" <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">devzero2000 at rpm5.org</A>> wrote:
</I>>>><i> Apart from the rest - of which i will ask for sponsorship when it
</I>>>><i> will
</I>>>><i> be - I wanted to know if there are plans to move to rpm5 by Mageia,
</I>>>><i> such as Mandriva has been doing lately.
</I>>><i>
</I>>><i>
</I>>>><i> Rpm5 already has a builtbot
</I>>>><i> with Magela and rpm5. I can, if you can think useful or have plan for
</I>>>><i> this, lay the necessary modification to enter into rpm5 Mageia, with
</I>>>><i> the features of Mandriva cooker - fingerprint, syslog, etc. without
</I>>>><i> trademark ecc- and produce a first rpm rpm5 for mageia , which also
</I>>>><i> contains the functionality required by the passage to the "RPM
</I>>>><i> ACID " feauture (berkeley db conversion)
</I>>><i>
</I>>><i> But, can you:
</I>>><i> -ensure that all valid packages that build under rpm-4.x (e.g. in Mandriva 2010.x) will build under rpm5?
</I>>><i> -ensure that all valid packages that install under rpm-4.x will install under rpm-4.x?
</I>><i> No and no (I'm assuming you mean "install under rpm5 will install
</I>><i> under rpm-4.x").
</I>><i> Such guarantees has never been provided with any other rpm versions
</I>><i> either and would effectively prevent the possibility of doing any
</I>><i> serious development
</I>><i> and improvement on rpm itself and packaging.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> There's a reason for having backports and why we don't even try aiming
</I>><i> at such goals either.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> If able to give any such guarantees with rpm.org on Mageia you gotta be
</I>><i> either stupid, insane or a damn liar! ;p
</I>><i>
</I>><i> The guarantees and priorities is as always:
</I>><i> * legacy compatibility for older packages
</I>><i> (opposed to future compatibility gets kinda hard with the the whole
</I>><i> time travelling issue and limitations attached to it making future
</I>><i> hard to reliably
</I>><i> define;)
</I>><i> *  backportability of current packages
</I>><i> packages needs to be adapted to follow current policies, practice, functionality
</I>><i> etc. in the current distribution, while efforts in ensuring
</I>><i> possibility of backports
</I>><i> needs to be invested in the packaging and adopting along the way rather than
</I>><i> keep adapting rpm to stay compatible with the packaging which gets rather
</I>><i> backwards.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> Very few changes results in breakage for backports, and where it happens it's
</I>><i> easy enough to add conditional behaviour, nothing new forcing any real changes
</I>><i> in long-established practices here..
</I>><i> Much of the same breakages and issues you hit, you'll hit just as well in newer
</I>><i> versions from rpm.org as well..
</I>>><i>
</I>>><i> There is no document specifying what has changed, or even when highlighting changes, no-one (@rpm5.org, or @mandriva.com) has bothered to list them so that contributors can save time instead of troubleshooting breakage.
</I>>><i>
</I>>><i> Some issues that have impacted me so far:
</I>>><i> -changed behaviour of %exclude
</I>><i> Ambiguity on %exclude usage is a clear bug, %exclude which is solely
</I>><i> intended for
</I>><i> excluding files from a specific package (rather than from being packaged at all.
</I>><i> removing files at end of %install already fit this purpose
</I>><i> sufficiently, which should
</I>><i> make it obvious to most people with understanding of doing technical designs in
</I>><i> general that wiring already existing functionality into an existing
</I>><i> function with
</I>><i> different functionality wouldn't make sense. Also this bug was fixed
</I>><i> since in later
</I>><i> releases such as 4.4.6 & 4.4.8 shipped before the rpm.org change, and should
</I>><i> rather be treated as a regression.) predates the unpackaged files check and
</I>><i> should *not* be used for other purposes.
</I>><i> Fixing this is in packaging is *very* trivial and fully backwards
</I>><i> compatible, not
</I>><i> fixing this OTOH breaks compatibility.
</I>>><i> -new reserved macros (%sql)
</I>><i> all new macros introduced has the potential of conflicting with others
</I>><i> and should
</I>><i> always be fixed, it being reserved is more a benefit IMO as it prevents such
</I>><i> incidents to go unnoticed (using very generic naming for macros is a bad
</I>><i> practice in general anyways)..
</I>><i> fixing this does not break any compatibility either ;)
</I>>><i> -possible race condition between %__os_install_post and processing of %files (.lzma man pages reported missing where they are in fact .xz)
</I>><i> your own packaging mistake independent of rpm version, explained on
</I>><i> cooker and fixed for you already ;)
</I>>><i>
</I>>><i> (and of course, the unavailability of the build system - during one of the periods I had the most time to work on packages - due to the rpm5 "upgrade")
</I>>><i>
</I>>><i> rpm5 has wasted more than half of the time I could afford to contribute to Mandriva. It seems Mandriva has resources to waste, I don't think we have.
</I>><i> you gotta put short-term and long-term effects up against eachother. breakages
</I>><i> were already expected long before starting the upgrade, and the
</I>><i> majority of these
</I>><i> were actually rather in various tools etc. related to rpm rather than
</I>><i> in rpm itself.
</I>><i> The existing situation made it hard to maintain and do development of
</I>><i> rpm in distribution,
</I>><i> packaging and on a the various tools due to being left with since-long
</I>><i> unmaintained
</I>><i> tools used (ie. the older version of the perl bindings that only mandriva
</I>><i> uses and that has been rewritten from scratch since and actively maintained
</I>><i> upstream as well) and having to keep work around it and moving further
</I>><i> and further away from "standard" rpm packaging by keep introducing any new
</I>><i> functionality, scripts, macros etc. as distro specific and harder to collaborate
</I>><i> with others on..
</I>><i>
</I>><i> You gotta break a few eggs..
</I>><i> Issues hit in Mandriva gets fixed along the way in both cooker and upstream
</I>><i> in parallel, making extremely few of them of any big concerns for other to
</I>><i> worry about later.
</I>><i> Maintenance and development of various tools, packaging etc. and dealing with
</I>><i> your existing and future issues experienced is something you'll be left to deal
</I>><i> with alone though..
</I>><i> Considering the *major* amount of time and work invested in r&d historically
</I>><i> always being on Mandriva's end with almost all developers employed to
</I>><i> work on it full time. The harsh reality of trying to keep this up with only a
</I>><i> few of these working on it during their limited spare time should be obvious..
</I>><i> You're entitled to the freedom of not showing any interest in sharing efforts on
</I>><i> any of these things (and for yourself to blame;), at least you're made aware of
</I>><i> competence, skills, interest and resources that's been offered and is still
</I>><i> available to you. :)
</I>><i>
</I>><i>
</I>>><i>
</I>>><i> (At present, I am not sure if I will continue to maintain packages in Mandriva, the ones where I need newer packages on non-Mandriva at work which I currently maintain in Mandriva and then rebuild I will maintain for the present, but ones I don't need for work may languish ...)
</I>><i>
</I>><i> (Sorry for slow reponse and late reply..:/)
</I>
Thanks for your inputs. Decision was taken some weeks ago and we will
follow it for now. You may have very good reasons on your side, please
respect ours.
--
Anne
<A HREF="http://www.mageia.org">http://www.mageia.org</A>
</PRE>
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