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diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-marketing/2011-March/000178.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-marketing/2011-March/000178.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..f80e24f17 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-marketing/2011-March/000178.html @@ -0,0 +1,397 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-marketing] Mageia product naming/scoping + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-marketing%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-marketing%5D%20Mageia%20product%20naming/scoping&In-Reply-To=%3C4D7FCBAF.8070506%40NorthTech.US%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="000177.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="000179.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-marketing] Mageia product naming/scoping</H1> + <B>Bradley D. Thornton</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-marketing%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-marketing%5D%20Mageia%20product%20naming/scoping&In-Reply-To=%3C4D7FCBAF.8070506%40NorthTech.US%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-marketing] Mageia product naming/scoping">Bradley at NorthTech.US + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Mar 15 21:27:27 CET 2011</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000177.html">[Mageia-marketing] Mageia product naming/scoping +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000179.html">[Mageia-marketing] Mageia product naming/scoping +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#178">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#178">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#178">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#178">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- +Hash: RIPEMD160 + +Hi Romain, + +I'm glad you brought this on up. I've been dreading it. For the most +part, much of this topic has already been decided, but FWIW, I will +comment anyway, as this is a great concern to me, and as far as I'm +concerned, the most important aspect of whether Mageia will ultimately +succeed as a major distro to be taken seriously. + +Just to point out, I haven't had any use whatsoever for Mandriva, having +only installed it just a few times over the years, so I could be sure as +to why I recommended EVERYONE to NOT use it. + +Conversely, I was a MAJOR proponent and advocate for Linux Mandrake, and +my company was responsible for somewhere in the neighborhood of 25,000 +desktop installs at various Fortune 500's and others in the United +States, including Merril Lynch, ARCO, AIG, and a bunch of others. + +Then came that damn IPO... + +I think we all know what happened after that. But until then, as far as +I was concerned (Having completely abandoned the Redhat camp after RH +5.2), it was the ONLY RPM based distro I championed for the desktop. + +We erradicated an awful lot of wYNdOZe in the enterprise with Mandrake. + +As far as servers, however, I am not a proponent of RPM based distros - +nor will I be. I'm just not your man if you want someone to tout the +benefits of Mageia in the datacenter or back office. It ain't gonna +happen in any of my shops. + +Yes, I'm quite prejudiced, yet this is not to say that I don't think +Mageia or Mandrake would work well as a server. It does evidence my +preferences for (IMNSHO) more suitable distros to serve that purpose. + +And for that purpose, I'm kind of a +Slackware/debian/Sorcerer/Arch/Linboard kinda guy (Yes, I've been +installing and running Linboard Linux in the enterprise and datacenters +since I created it in 1992, and in 1993 it became available on the +shelves of many prominent stores via the retail distribution channels). + +Occasionally, yet very rarely, I will actually settle on CentOS, but +that is mostly for datacenter installs for hosting companies, as has, +for the most part, only to do with the nice integration between +WHM/cPanel for their customers. + +Other than that, I have virtually no use for an RPM based distro for +anything other than the desktop (with the possible exception of SuSE). + +I'm hoping that Mageia will fill that gap that has been, IMO, missing +from the desktop distro offerings since Mandrake met its demise and +became Mandriva. + +This is not to say that I think Mageia is not a good product for the +back office or datacenter - I've just been through RPM hell too many +times over the last 15 years and don't see it as a sustainable model - +and from my perspective, it has never proven to be suitable for that +kind of that environment as far as I'm concerned (SuSE included). + +Remember, I come from a Sys III / BSD background. I was raised to +believe that a server should be capable of being maintained for ten or +more years, which is exactly what I have when I run Slackware, debian, +xBSD, or Solaris. + +Therefore, my perspective might be quite different (and undoubtedly is) +from others here on the Mageia team. + +But before I briefly address your subject below, let's look at the other +side of the coin before people get the wrong idea about what I expect +from Mageia and where I think (Hope) it is going to shine. + +First, I'm hoping that Mageia will make for the wonderful, award winning +desktop distro that Mandrake was (as I've already indicated). + +Second, Slackware and Debian, although my first choices usually for +enterprise servers, are really not paricularly well suited for desktop +deployment for the average joe (Well, debian can be). For example, I'm +writing this email on a pure Slackware64 -current laptop - Something +that I definately would almost NEVER recommend to anyone but a seasoned +sysadmin. + +Third, and I might get flamed for this, but Ubuntu just sux green +weenies. I'd rather give someone a Knoppix LiveCD than see them run that +bastard distro. Again, I admit I'm quite prejudiced when it comes to +choosing distros for a particular application. + +Okay so what do we have now? Several reasons why I just don't see any +use for an RPM based distro (with rare exceptions for SuSE and CentOS)as +an enterprise server, and several reasons why I feel my favorite server +platforms are not suitable for massive desktop deployment in the enterprise. + +One thing that disgusts me (Aside from RHEL), are the enterprise +offerings from Mandriva. You can download some "Enterprise" versions of +the distro, and not pay for support (WTF does support mean anyway?), but +you aren't, according to the website entitled to updates - that is just +INSANE!!! + +And then, there other, in my opinion, utterly useless versions of the +distro that are lacking in some way, because of the inference that they +are somehow mission specific, crippled, or otherwise lacking in +capability (even though they're really not). + +So, to address your topic of addressing the, "...listing and naming of +the different instances of our product,...", I offer the following, as a +roster of what *I* would like to see :) + +1.) Of course, a full featured, Mageia LiveCD (I don't personally have +much use for these, but recognize and recommend that such an entity +exists for many reasons, too numerous to list here. + +Things like LibreOffice, and other *end user* software should be +included in this packed image. + +2.) For lack of a better term, a *utility* or *minimal* LiveCD. I know +that leaves a lot of wiggle room for people to figure out what should be +included in such a spin. + +A plethora of *utilities* should be included, including things like +Wireshark (Ethereal), EtherApe, Filezilla, CLI and forensic tools, but +not going overboard with that because distros like Backtrack 3/4 already +have narrow focus on that front. + +3.) A Mageia Minimal offering - Like debian's Netinst - a minimal spin +that you can use to quickly get an OS deployed and finish/customize over +the wire and/or via scripts - such a spin makes large scale enterprise +desktop delployments not only possible, but friendly to the VARs and +Integrators who will be rolling out the Mageia desktop en masse in the +enterprise. + +4.) A Mageia Full: this should be the shining gemstone of planet Mageia. +a complete set of userland applications, office and productivity suites, +games, whatever will make people go, "Man that Mageia is really kewl and +full featured right out of the box!". + +Lot's of bells and whistles for the home user and corporate desktop +alike, something that will give that Ubuntu crap a run for its money +from a team that is organized similarly to that of the debian project +(as we are), instead of some corporate sponsored, special interest +driven, distro - like Ubuntu, Redhat, and Mandriva are (Yeah, +unfortunately, SuSE falls into this category too, although there is +OpenSuSE too). + +Finally, and no *handy* distro would be complete without it, a USB stick +version of Mageia, pretty much the same thing as Mageia Minimal, or +Mageia LiveCD, but something that IT persons and Internet Cafe patrons +alike, can carry on their keychains and boot from quickly, to surf or +access Cloud resources. + +In my opinion, Whether any kind of Enterprise support packages are +offered or not for Mageia, there shouldn't be ANY DISTINCTION WHATSOEVER +between one of the above spins of Mageia and support subscription ready +versions - IOW: Specific *Enterprise* or otherwise specialty spins of +Mageia *Should NOT exist* - the distro should be able to stand upon its +own in the community and be equally appropriate for those who want to +self-administer with community support or paid subscription support. + +I'll retell this one story briefly here again: + +One day, a member of the development team in the medical industry +company where I worked came to me and asked if he could have resources +on a production server for one of our upcoming products that I had +previously provided him a custom staging server for (Watch out for Java +programmers, they want ALL of your memory LOL). + +Since we were moving, wrt this particular suite of apps, from beta to +limited production for final elbow checking before general release and +shrink wrap, I told him I could give him space and resources for his +apps to run on one of our older, less used forward facing servers. + +Well this particular server was an RHEL box, and the software didn't run +because of certain aspects of his suite, to make a long story short, +that needed some specific support in the Linux Kernel. + +So I pushed him back three or four days and said I would compile him a +kernel on that box that would meet his needs and then no prob.... Until +one of the VPs came to me and asked if this was okay to do. + +"But of course it is", was my general response. I mean, what could be +more natural than compiling a custom kernel? + +But the VP urged me to contact RH and ask them if is was *OKAY* to +compile and install a custom kernel on a box with an RH Enterprise +support subscription. + +I grudgingly obliged his suggestion, and was subsequently informed by +Redhat that we could NOT run this software (meaning, I couldn't install +my own kernel). + +I had never heard of such a thing (um... Well, back in the mainframe +days, sure). + +Basically, I was informed by the Friendly Redhat support person that in +order to run a custom kernel, that I had to provide Redhat with the +particular specifications and THEY would compile the kernel for me. + +The argument has been made on several sysadmin lists that since you are +paying Redhat to hold your hand and do everything for you, that you +should just let them do it. + +Okay, but then why do I need to be drawing a salary if Redhat can, and +will, do everything that I was contracted to do? + +I thanked the nice gentleman at Redhat and went about my day. in the +late afternoon, when the second shift of my admins started to arrive, I +gathered everyone up in a conference room and told them that on Friday, +they would all need to bring sleeping bags, a bunch of sandwiches, +bottled drinks, and a couple changes of clothes - and be prepared to +live on premise for the entire weekend. + +Come 06:30hrs Monday morning, there wasn't a single living Redhat +machine left in the entire enterprise, and the developer had his +production machine ready to launch his RC1. + +The moral of the story is like this - If we create a distro that has a +*spin* which requires an enterprise support contract like Redhat or +Oracle (basically the same distro, but Oracle's enterprise support +package is cheaper), then we will alienate massive amounts of +administrators, and since Redhat already has this particular market +cornered for the idiot pencil pushers who for some stupid reason make +such support a requirement for the adoption of a vendors product, Mageia +will fail miserably - and I will abandon it as well. + +On the other hand, if we simply provide enterprise support as a value +added option for some, or any of our distro's various spins, then I'm +all for it - even if such a model isn't in the works. + +Preferably, I would like to see a Mageia certification program, and +links to vendors that provide enterprise support for Mageia +installations, but regardless, the Redhat model is a big loser for +Mageia if it is adopted. + +Another way to derive income for the project would be to bundle third +party, *non-free* software suites with optional or mandatory +licensing/support packages. I won't personally use any software like +that, but I have nothing against it and the publishers of such software +will pay the Mageia project handsomely for such exclusivity, access to +their wares, and the advertising space on our websites. + +Okay moving along now :) + +As for the actual *Naming* for our products... Well that's really not +important to me, as long as the average joe is able to make a +distinction between what the various product spins of our distro above +are, and which one is right for them. + +I'm really hoping that we end up with a product that I can confidently, +and proudly recommend on the enterprise desktop which I have no +hesitation to use, in the campaign to erradicate wINdOZe. + +To summarize the most important points of what I expect to see emerge +from our product line: + +1.) No particular spin of our distribution should be crippled (like some +Mandriva spins are), yielding an installation that is either full +featured from the start, or with regards to a minimal netinst spin of +our product, completely capable of seamlessly becoming the full featured +version with a couple (okay maybe six or seven) clicks of the mouse. + +2.) If there is to be an enterprise support offering, it is something to +augment the user's installations of Mageia, irrespective of the +particular spin they chose to install, and without the requirement that +any *special* version of Mageia need be created for such purpose. + +3.) We should have a LiveCD and USB stick version which fits on a single +CD, and on a USB flash drive of less than or equal to 1GByte. Those +versions should also have an exceedingly easy and DIRECT migration path +to install the *live* system onto the hard drive, yielding a complete +Mageia installation that conforms to item #1 above. + +4.) We should have all of the above offerings in a strictly 32bit +version of Mageia, for backward compatibilty support for older, or +crippled hardware, while our flagship products should be 64bit multi-lib +enabled. + +This last point might need some clarification. While I am, essentially a +Slackware stalwart, and have been for over 15 years, we slackers +typically believe that one should have a pure 32bit version of a distro, +and a pure 64bit version that is multi-libe ready, but not enabled. I do +not advocate such a thing for Mageia - I believe that all 64 versions of +our product also be 32bit enabled - we're talking about two different +beasts here, and if our 64bit versions won't run 32bit apps out of the +box - we are doomed. + +I hope that helps :) + +Bradley. + +On 03/15/2011 07:58 AM, Romain d'Alverny wrote: +><i> Hey there, +</I>><i> +</I>><i> here comes another serious part: listing and naming the different +</I>><i> instances of our product, for finale release (and we ought to have +</I>><i> everything square for beta2 or RC release if possible). +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Here are notes summarizing what we currently have available for +</I>><i> delivery, given our history. There are missing use cases, perhaps +</I>><i> (being more specialized). Maybe missing media as well. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> <A HREF="http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=marcom:product_naming">http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=marcom:product_naming</A> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Goal of this topic is double: +</I>><i> * study/propose/find a name for the product as such (Mageia? Mageia +</I>><i> something? something?) +</I>><i> * refine/study/propose/find use cases to confirm existing delivered +</I>><i> products or suggest new ones (new ones may not necessarily be +</I>><i> available for Mageia 1, but will likely be tested just after for the +</I>><i> next run). +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Advice, proposals, mockups welcome. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Thanks! +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Romain +</I>><i> _______________________________________________ +</I>><i> Mageia-marketing mailing list +</I>><i> <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-marketing">Mageia-marketing at mageia.org</A> +</I>><i> <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-marketing">https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-marketing</A> +</I> +- -- +Bradley D. Thornton +Manager Network Services +NorthTech Computer +TEL: +1.760.666.2703 (US) +TEL: +44.702.405.1909 (UK) +<A HREF="http://NorthTech.US">http://NorthTech.US</A> + +-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- +Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) +Comment: Find this cert at x-<A HREF="hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net">hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net</A> + +iQEcBAEBAwAGBQJNf8uvAAoJEE1wgkIhr9j3aAQH/3vNin1edDHzMAsrqVshtmAI +P2D3I0pkJt8NUUYI/cXfmH6V+JHT21ug53qVhGXwd6bW5W7UTxDOVuJZu47laqzc +LWiA99kH6fjgCE5/aZyWfFwhPBbEmY9DOOHNnaLdBxV9ehH2yz9x9v9kbrpewPTn +7xjUU5pQkcCddihP69jYgLhoyT5rc0kI2Fx0fD76bWeFoLzPmtOaiaR8VFwTinn2 +ghXSrHeVDXrk21IDmqxTzO1Qcdsbs+AEXwYkYf/DbkY9+wIf47IReR/lPzFShNrN +zIXHF4mnww7oSgptywVTdSD+RJF9U2vjDcQasrl67ZFdTOEQBuKVFRA32C4KOOE= +=N5ED +-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- +</PRE> + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000177.html">[Mageia-marketing] Mageia product naming/scoping +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000179.html">[Mageia-marketing] Mageia product naming/scoping +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#178">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#178">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#178">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#178">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-marketing">More information about the Mageia-marketing +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> |