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diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/attachments/20120411/1c40c39a/attachment-0001.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/attachments/20120411/1c40c39a/attachment-0001.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..94403650e --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/attachments/20120411/1c40c39a/attachment-0001.html @@ -0,0 +1,13 @@ +<html><head></head><body><div class="gmail_quote">Olav Vitters <olav@vitters.nl> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"> +<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap; word-wrap:break-word; font-family: monospace">On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 01:47:51PM +0200, Wolfgang Bornath wrote:<br />> 2012/4/11 Olav Vitters <olav@vitters.nl>:<br />> > On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 06:17:32AM -0400, Renaud (Ron) Olgiati wrote:<br />> >> On Wednesday 11 Apr 2012 05:35 my mailbox was graced by a message from Olav<br />> >> Vitters who wrote:<br />> >> > I don't see how excluding documentation makes things more practical.<br />> >><br />> >> As in "more practical to have diskspace available for data, than have it used<br />> >> up by documentation I will not need" ?<br />> ><br />> > You're speaking about yourself. I am speaking in general. How is it more<br />> > practical that the documentation is not available? You raise disk space.<br />> > I see that as a benefit if you have a small amount of disk space. But I<br />> > don't + see +how that makes not including documentation practical. Might be<br />> > practical to have the installer automatically detect a small amount of<br />> > disk space and exclude documentation. But in general not having any<br />> > documentation available is not practical at all; you have to rely on an<br />> > internet connection, hope that the documentation is available online,<br />> > furthermore you have to search for it.<br />> ><br />> > Not installing documentation, might be some reasons for it, but<br />> > 'practical': I don't see it.<br />> <br />> The question whether having documentation ready or not is based on<br />> individual preferences, there is no general consensus about that as<br />> you pretend when you claim to "speak in general". At least this is<br /><br />That is not what I was after.<br /><br />I said that minimizing disk space is a preference. A way to achieve that<br />is to exclude +documentation. Minimizing disk space might be practical in<br />some cases. But that doesn't mean that if by default / in general / for<br />everyone the documentation is excluded, that this exclusion is somehow<br />logical. Or: A -> B doesn't mean B -> A.<br /><br />> what this thread told us. In my understanding the point of this whole<br />> discussion is to find a way to cater to both sides, (A) having<br />> documentation ready if you want it but also (B) being able to *easily*<br />> avoid it if you don't want it. At the moment this issue is not solved<br />> for (A) AND (B), only for (A).<br /><br />Seems you're just repeating what I suggested: if there is a need, check<br />if it can be possible.<br /><br />At the moment the only concern seems to be disk space. If that is the<br />only reason, just do it automatically and/or have a special disk space<br />concious section. Fully analysing why to exclude would allow that will<br />ensure it is the + re when +expected, instead of just being an option you<br />have to search for.<br /><br />-- <br />Regards,<br />Olav<br /></pre></blockquote></div><br clear="all">If a flag like --excludedocs works from the command line, there could conceptually exist some /etc/urpmi file that specifies flags that tools should use by default. Since many flags are not universally applicable, this could be a source of issues though. On install, if the user does not check the documentation box, then this is how that feature is selected.<br> +<br> +I see disk space detection as less obvious and potentially problematic as it might block things a user does not want blocked.<br> +<br> +It also occurs to me that there ought to be a way to reverse the block and reprocess packages to install docs that were so blocked... in a gui app.<br> +-- <br> +Sent from my Android tablet. Please excuse my brevity.</body></html>
\ No newline at end of file diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/attachments/20120411/1c40c39a/attachment.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/attachments/20120411/1c40c39a/attachment.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..94403650e --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/attachments/20120411/1c40c39a/attachment.html @@ -0,0 +1,13 @@ +<html><head></head><body><div class="gmail_quote">Olav Vitters <olav@vitters.nl> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"> +<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap; word-wrap:break-word; font-family: monospace">On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 01:47:51PM +0200, Wolfgang Bornath wrote:<br />> 2012/4/11 Olav Vitters <olav@vitters.nl>:<br />> > On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 06:17:32AM -0400, Renaud (Ron) Olgiati wrote:<br />> >> On Wednesday 11 Apr 2012 05:35 my mailbox was graced by a message from Olav<br />> >> Vitters who wrote:<br />> >> > I don't see how excluding documentation makes things more practical.<br />> >><br />> >> As in "more practical to have diskspace available for data, than have it used<br />> >> up by documentation I will not need" ?<br />> ><br />> > You're speaking about yourself. I am speaking in general. How is it more<br />> > practical that the documentation is not available? You raise disk space.<br />> > I see that as a benefit if you have a small amount of disk space. But I<br />> > don't + see +how that makes not including documentation practical. Might be<br />> > practical to have the installer automatically detect a small amount of<br />> > disk space and exclude documentation. But in general not having any<br />> > documentation available is not practical at all; you have to rely on an<br />> > internet connection, hope that the documentation is available online,<br />> > furthermore you have to search for it.<br />> ><br />> > Not installing documentation, might be some reasons for it, but<br />> > 'practical': I don't see it.<br />> <br />> The question whether having documentation ready or not is based on<br />> individual preferences, there is no general consensus about that as<br />> you pretend when you claim to "speak in general". At least this is<br /><br />That is not what I was after.<br /><br />I said that minimizing disk space is a preference. A way to achieve that<br />is to exclude +documentation. Minimizing disk space might be practical in<br />some cases. But that doesn't mean that if by default / in general / for<br />everyone the documentation is excluded, that this exclusion is somehow<br />logical. Or: A -> B doesn't mean B -> A.<br /><br />> what this thread told us. In my understanding the point of this whole<br />> discussion is to find a way to cater to both sides, (A) having<br />> documentation ready if you want it but also (B) being able to *easily*<br />> avoid it if you don't want it. At the moment this issue is not solved<br />> for (A) AND (B), only for (A).<br /><br />Seems you're just repeating what I suggested: if there is a need, check<br />if it can be possible.<br /><br />At the moment the only concern seems to be disk space. If that is the<br />only reason, just do it automatically and/or have a special disk space<br />concious section. Fully analysing why to exclude would allow that will<br />ensure it is the + re when +expected, instead of just being an option you<br />have to search for.<br /><br />-- <br />Regards,<br />Olav<br /></pre></blockquote></div><br clear="all">If a flag like --excludedocs works from the command line, there could conceptually exist some /etc/urpmi file that specifies flags that tools should use by default. Since many flags are not universally applicable, this could be a source of issues though. On install, if the user does not check the documentation box, then this is how that feature is selected.<br> +<br> +I see disk space detection as less obvious and potentially problematic as it might block things a user does not want blocked.<br> +<br> +It also occurs to me that there ought to be a way to reverse the block and reprocess packages to install docs that were so blocked... in a gui app.<br> +-- <br> +Sent from my Android tablet. Please excuse my brevity.</body></html>
\ No newline at end of file diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/attachments/20120411/4af42f98/attachment-0001.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/attachments/20120411/4af42f98/attachment-0001.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..a716706b2 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/attachments/20120411/4af42f98/attachment-0001.html @@ -0,0 +1,77 @@ +<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">Στις 11 Απριλίου 2012 3:53 μ.μ., ο χρήστης Wolfgang Bornath <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:molch.b@googlemail.com">molch.b@googlemail.com</a>></span> έγραψε:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> +2012/4/11 Olav Vitters <<a href="mailto:olav@vitters.nl">olav@vitters.nl</a>>:<br> +> On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 02:23:36PM +0200, Wolfgang Bornath wrote:<br> +>> > Seems you're just repeating what I suggested: if there is a need, check<br> +>> > if it can be possible.<br> +>><br> +>> Hmm, Obviously we are talking about different things. I thought I<br> +>> clearly showed that there is a need and that the topic of thei thread<br> +>> is to find a solution.<br> +><br> +> The thread is just a request to exclude documentation. IMO the real need<br> +> is unclear (not only disk space apparently). If you fulfill every<br> +> request right away, you'll end up with a lot of options. Better to<br> +> analyse why something is asked and provide that. Gives a better<br> +> experience than just another option somewhere.<br> +><br> +>> > At the moment the only concern seems to be disk space. If that is the<br> +>> > only reason, just do it automatically and/or have a special disk space<br> +>> > concious section. Fully analysing why to exclude would allow that will<br> +>> > ensure it is there when expected, instead of just being an option you<br> +>> > have to search for.<br> +>><br> +>> No, disk space is not the only reason but the most prominent. For the<br> +>> rest of this paragraph I have no clue what you are talking about.<br> +>> Either it's the language barrier or maybe my lack of tech<br> +>> understanding.<br> +><br> +> I mean that is is better to know more than "exclude documentation". That<br> +> is just a request, but I don't get why it is made. E.g. if the sole<br> +> reason would be to minimize disk space, then the most logical thing is<br> +> to include this where disk space is handled.<br> +><br> +> I'm not talking technical, but more use cases.<br> +><br> +> E.g. yesterday one of my disks was full. I could easily resolve, but<br> +> once you understand that one of the reasons for the exclusion of<br> +> documentation is disk space, then you can put intelligence to exclude<br> +> documentation not only in the Mageia installer, but also in the<br> +> notification of not enough disk space (you could have an option to<br> +> remove the documentation on disk). Similarly, if I move to a bigger<br> +> disk, I might want to easily reinstall the documentation that was<br> +> manually removed.<br> +><br> +> Now if the only possibility to exclude documentation was in the Mageia<br> +> installer, then such an installer option doesn't really help when you<br> +> lack disk space later on.<br> +><br> +> Hope you're getting what I am after.<br> +><br> +> Btw: I am not trying to do anything near "stop energy", just want to<br> +> understand the use case better. The "why" is what I am after.<br> +<br> +Yes, I see, thx for clarification.<br> +<br> +Now, we have several use cases here:<br> +<br> +1 - disk is small (I have a netbook with a 4Gb SSD), I don't want to<br> +waste space for ballast.<br> +2 - disk is small, I don't want to waste space for ballast but I want<br> +some handbooks and/or some documentation (meaning I can mark the<br> +handbook I want and leave out all others)<br> +3 - disk space is no issue but I do not want to bloat the installation<br> +and only want the software installed which I really use.<br> +4 - disk space is no issue but I want to save download ressources when<br> +doing updates with rpmdrake (where you can't just say '--no-suggests')<br> +5 - disk space becomes an issue later so I want to remove all the<br> +handbooks with rpmdrake but not the applications themselves. And I<br> +don't want to go 'rpm -e -nodeps' for each and every single handbook<br> +<br> +I am sure there are more use cases, for me the need for a small<br> +installation was the small SSD in the netbook but I also think as #3<br> +<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br> +--<br> +wobo<br> +</font></span></blockquote></div><br>On the other hand if someone has a real limit with hard disk space, he can use another DE as icewm or lxde.<br>Or in KDE he can delete the handbook folder (doc/HTML) and what ever folder thinks that takes usefulness place in the drive. <br> +If we don't provide the handbooks (with the applications) we will devalue its importance, and personally will be very discouraged to translate them.<br><br>* I am not at home, actually how much space they take ? For what kind of size we are talking about ?<br> +<br> <br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div>Dimitrios Glentadakis</div><br> diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/attachments/20120411/4af42f98/attachment.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/attachments/20120411/4af42f98/attachment.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..a716706b2 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/attachments/20120411/4af42f98/attachment.html @@ -0,0 +1,77 @@ +<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">Στις 11 Απριλίου 2012 3:53 μ.μ., ο χρήστης Wolfgang Bornath <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:molch.b@googlemail.com">molch.b@googlemail.com</a>></span> έγραψε:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> +2012/4/11 Olav Vitters <<a href="mailto:olav@vitters.nl">olav@vitters.nl</a>>:<br> +> On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 02:23:36PM +0200, Wolfgang Bornath wrote:<br> +>> > Seems you're just repeating what I suggested: if there is a need, check<br> +>> > if it can be possible.<br> +>><br> +>> Hmm, Obviously we are talking about different things. I thought I<br> +>> clearly showed that there is a need and that the topic of thei thread<br> +>> is to find a solution.<br> +><br> +> The thread is just a request to exclude documentation. IMO the real need<br> +> is unclear (not only disk space apparently). If you fulfill every<br> +> request right away, you'll end up with a lot of options. Better to<br> +> analyse why something is asked and provide that. Gives a better<br> +> experience than just another option somewhere.<br> +><br> +>> > At the moment the only concern seems to be disk space. If that is the<br> +>> > only reason, just do it automatically and/or have a special disk space<br> +>> > concious section. Fully analysing why to exclude would allow that will<br> +>> > ensure it is there when expected, instead of just being an option you<br> +>> > have to search for.<br> +>><br> +>> No, disk space is not the only reason but the most prominent. For the<br> +>> rest of this paragraph I have no clue what you are talking about.<br> +>> Either it's the language barrier or maybe my lack of tech<br> +>> understanding.<br> +><br> +> I mean that is is better to know more than "exclude documentation". That<br> +> is just a request, but I don't get why it is made. E.g. if the sole<br> +> reason would be to minimize disk space, then the most logical thing is<br> +> to include this where disk space is handled.<br> +><br> +> I'm not talking technical, but more use cases.<br> +><br> +> E.g. yesterday one of my disks was full. I could easily resolve, but<br> +> once you understand that one of the reasons for the exclusion of<br> +> documentation is disk space, then you can put intelligence to exclude<br> +> documentation not only in the Mageia installer, but also in the<br> +> notification of not enough disk space (you could have an option to<br> +> remove the documentation on disk). Similarly, if I move to a bigger<br> +> disk, I might want to easily reinstall the documentation that was<br> +> manually removed.<br> +><br> +> Now if the only possibility to exclude documentation was in the Mageia<br> +> installer, then such an installer option doesn't really help when you<br> +> lack disk space later on.<br> +><br> +> Hope you're getting what I am after.<br> +><br> +> Btw: I am not trying to do anything near "stop energy", just want to<br> +> understand the use case better. The "why" is what I am after.<br> +<br> +Yes, I see, thx for clarification.<br> +<br> +Now, we have several use cases here:<br> +<br> +1 - disk is small (I have a netbook with a 4Gb SSD), I don't want to<br> +waste space for ballast.<br> +2 - disk is small, I don't want to waste space for ballast but I want<br> +some handbooks and/or some documentation (meaning I can mark the<br> +handbook I want and leave out all others)<br> +3 - disk space is no issue but I do not want to bloat the installation<br> +and only want the software installed which I really use.<br> +4 - disk space is no issue but I want to save download ressources when<br> +doing updates with rpmdrake (where you can't just say '--no-suggests')<br> +5 - disk space becomes an issue later so I want to remove all the<br> +handbooks with rpmdrake but not the applications themselves. And I<br> +don't want to go 'rpm -e -nodeps' for each and every single handbook<br> +<br> +I am sure there are more use cases, for me the need for a small<br> +installation was the small SSD in the netbook but I also think as #3<br> +<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br> +--<br> +wobo<br> +</font></span></blockquote></div><br>On the other hand if someone has a real limit with hard disk space, he can use another DE as icewm or lxde.<br>Or in KDE he can delete the handbook folder (doc/HTML) and what ever folder thinks that takes usefulness place in the drive. <br> +If we don't provide the handbooks (with the applications) we will devalue its importance, and personally will be very discouraged to translate them.<br><br>* I am not at home, actually how much space they take ? For what kind of size we are talking about ?<br> +<br> <br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div>Dimitrios Glentadakis</div><br> |