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[Was: forking mandriva]</H1> + <B>Per Øyvind Karlsen</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20%5BCooker%5D%20Re%3A%20Transparency%20%26%20open%20invitation%20to%0A%20a%20united%20foundation..%3F%20%5BWas%3A%20forking%20mandriva%5D&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTi%3DxXyQ%2B4GRyBbqdRNM40yhVePJvBWejd_fKedPU%40mail.gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] [Cooker] Re: Transparency & open invitation to a united foundation..? [Was: forking mandriva]">peroyvind at mandriva.org + </A><BR> + <I>Wed Sep 22 18:09:10 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000679.html">[Mageia-discuss] [Cooker] Re: Transparency & open invitation to a united foundation..? [Was: forking mandriva] +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000713.html">[Mageia-discuss] [Cooker] Re: Transparency & open invitation to a united foundation..? [Was: forking mandriva] +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#710">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#710">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#710">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#710">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>2010/9/22 Jerome Quelin <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">jquelin at gmail.com</A>>: +><i> On 10/09/21 21:49 +0200, Per Řyvind Karlsen wrote: +</I>>><i> > You will leave your newborn in the "hands" of the same company whose +</I>>><i> > lack of direction caused this situation? +</I>>><i> > +</I>>><i> > Maybe I'm a "little" paranoid, but i think we should listen +</I>>><i> > ex-employes / developers. They know the sh*t from the very inside. +</I>>><i> Ah, yes, two ex-employees / developers which were actively involved +</I>>><i> with the development of the distribution over so many years.. Uh, oh, +</I>>><i> wait, no they weren't. +</I>>><i> I'm questioning whether they actually grasp all of the work required +</I>>><i> to put together a distribution. I also find it odd when I see +</I>>><i> statements from them on IRC which seems to be in conflict with others +</I>>><i> involved with this that they intend on going in a different direction +</I>>><i> independent of Mandriva. With all the people being brought aboard with +</I>>><i> Mageia from the Mandriva Linux community, I find it hard to believe +</I>>><i> that there has been established a consensus about this with all of the +</I>>><i> people involved and that they really want to do everything on their +</I>>><i> own and not care about keeping relations or anything with what they've +</I>>><i> been involved with on actual community basis and over longer times +</I>>><i> than either of these two.. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> since you were not part of the discussion*s*, what you believe doesn't +</I>><i> really matter. i can tell you that there is a consensus to release a +</I>><i> community distribution. in fact, it was more of a consensus: it was the +</I>><i> stated goal around which the rest of the project was born. +</I>Interesting fact you point out there, why wasn't I part of it? Why was +I excluded? +Given my history of being one of the oldest and most active +contributors, part of the assembly and being the main person behind +the foundation proposal back in 2007 and actively pursuing it since, I +even brought in an offer from someone to fund it and proposed this to +the same people behind this fork, around the same time as when they +started discussing it, and I wasn't just ignored, I was even +considered a threath. + +It seems to be rather obvious why I wasn't part of the discussions and +was intentionally excluded, just as it illustrates that the discussion +didn't really involve the whole community. + +I anyways don't see why anything I believe about Mageia is of any less +relevance than what you believe about Mandriva. +><i> +</I>><i> +</I>>><i> Are you guys *really* planning on doing the whole distribution on your +</I>>><i> own totally independent of Mandriva without any interest of +</I>>><i> collaborating? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> yes. period. +</I>Your short, firm and decissive response to this obviously seems to +lack any proper consensus or support from the community. Obviously you +have something that you really need to work out.. +><i> +</I>><i> +</I>>><i> To me, these responses of Romain and Nicolas seems to confirm all the +</I>>><i> questions I raised earlier in this thread, suggesting that the fork +</I>>><i> and their motivations are personal and not out of concern and care for +</I>>><i> the community, despite these motivations officially given. I guess +</I>>><i> there's a reason for why they avoided these critical questions raised +</I>>><i> towards them, and rather chose to attack constructive attempts at +</I>>><i> doing what's in the best interest of the community in stead. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> i am just a contributor, who was part of the discussions before the +</I>><i> launch of mageia. i am not a former mandriva/edge-it employee, but yet i +</I>><i> totally agree with the various opinions stated here: currently, mandriva +</I>><i> (the society) has failed to properly communicate with the community.  we +</I>><i> were never aware of what was going on, what were the plans, what were +</I>><i> the goals, etc. +</I>??? +This doesn't relate at all to what you're replying to. +><i> +</I>><i> please take that into account, and the frustration it created. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> now, do you really think that mandriva's ceo coming and saying "guys you +</I>><i> are right, let's create something together" is to be taken seriously? +</I>It's a response to an invitation to create something together with and +to interest of everyone. If it's your desire to create something like +this already, why would you not be interested? What ulteriour motives +do you think would be hidden behinds this? If it's not serious, then +what are the consequences you'd be fearing when it's something that +wouldn't make you dependent on it, but rather getting support from it? +Worst case scenario would be to not get the support you didn't expect +for creating something. +><i> +</I>><i> so, for now, i think that mageia should start alone. it might be more +</I>><i> difficult, but results will our owns, and what we'll manage to do from +</I>><i> this situation. and if mandriva is really gueniously interested in a +</I>><i> foundation, it will do whatever is needed to make sure mageia succeeds. +</I>><i> in one year from now, we'll have a better view on what's going on, and +</I>><i> if mandriva favors a real, independent community mentality (not to +</I>><i> mention the fact that nerves will have settle). +</I>><i> +</I>><i> that is: we will judge mandriva for what it's doing, not it's saying. +</I>><i> facts, not words. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>>><i> But sure, I've only been actively involved with the development of +</I>>><i> this *community* distribution and on several other levels for a decade +</I>>><i> now, being amongst those involved for the longest time, while also +</I>>><i> being an ex-employee myself, I've primarily been active through the +</I>>><i> community independent of my employment nor imposing personal feelings +</I>>><i> towards company on the community. And I can also truly claim that I +</I>>><i> have an absolute full understanding of all the work an complexity +</I>>><i> involved in putting together the whole distribution and put tons of +</I>>><i> more hours into this on my sparetime and out of interest for +</I>>><i> contributing to the community, making me quite aware of the fact that +</I>>><i> you'll have a pretty darn hard time doing this and organizing the +</I>>><i> whole thing on your own. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> good for you. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> but you know, this is a fork - we announced *our* decision, and people +</I>><i> join *if*they*want*. i did not handle a gun over people to force them to +</I>><i> come on various mageia mailing-lists and propose their help. it was +</I>><i> their choice. you may not agree, but please respect their choice. same +</I>><i> as i respect your choice: you prefer continuing with mandriva, fine. and +</I>><i> i won't come and try to convince you over and over: we're grown-ups, and +</I>><i> can make our opinion ourselve. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>>><i> In all these claims about this being a community project and it being +</I>>><i> independent off people's employment and all, would you really find +</I>>><i> disgruntled ex-employees which has only been involved in this project +</I>>><i> through employment as the most trustworthy characters? How much time +</I>>><i> do they actually plan to invest themself into this project on their +</I>>><i> sparetime now that they're not employed by Mandriva? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> this is none of your business. really. +</I>><i> they will speak about that if they want, but otherwise, please stay away +</I>><i> from their private life. +</I>Questioning people's involvement and dedication to a project is to dig +into people's personal life? +Do you have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy for Mageia..? +><i> +</I>><i> +</I>>><i> I can't really start telling how provoked I am over seeing this +</I>>><i> childish and truly community hostile attitude, or about the claims +</I>>><i> about through the liquidation of Edge-IT all of the talents and +</I>>><i> important people involved in development of the distribution +</I>>><i> disappearing, guess what, the majority of the staff working on the +</I>>><i> distribution for quite some time has actually been employed at +</I>>><i> Conectiva, not Edge-IT! +</I>><i> +</I>><i> once again: if you think it's better to follow up mandriva, then please +</I>><i> do so. what we did was community-friendly: after having understood that +</I>><i> a reconciliation could not be done at this moment, it's way better to +</I>><i> say "good-bye, we're going on our own", rather than rotting and +</I>><i> spreading bad will / mood in the project. +</I>I could say something about the order of occurence on "good-bye, +we're going on our own" and "spreading bad will / mood in the +project", but whatever.. +><i> +</I>><i> and who knows, maybe there will be a reconciliation later on. but i can +</I>><i> tell you that it's not possible right now. trying to force a +</I>><i> reconciliation won't work - it doesn't work like that. +</I>Forcing? It was a constructive discussion and invitation which +oviously is of interest to all parties, the opposition and rejection +from some people within your project seems to go right against much of +the motivation and goals for others involved with it. +But sure, deciding on and any participation in this is something +that's for you to decide on *together* with the rest of your +community. + +I don't plan on ending the discussion nor trying to collaborate as +much as possible.. + +-- +Regards, +Per Øyvind +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000679.html">[Mageia-discuss] [Cooker] Re: Transparency & open invitation to a united foundation..? [Was: forking mandriva] +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000713.html">[Mageia-discuss] [Cooker] Re: Transparency & open invitation to a united foundation..? 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