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[Was: forking mandriva]</H1> + <B>Paul Grinberg</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20%5Bul-developers%5D%20Re%3A%20%5BCooker%5D%20Transparency%20%26%0A%20open%20invitation%20to%20a%20united%20foundation..%3F%20%5BWas%3A%20forking%20mandriva%5D&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTim-BnBV4ZfyQQduaVk%3DB0FmAX8e3wOmhF2CCO-U%40mail.gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] [ul-developers] Re: [Cooker] Transparency & open invitation to a united foundation..? [Was: forking mandriva]">gri6507 at gmail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Tue Sep 21 14:47:28 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000376.html">[Mageia-discuss] [Cooker] Transparency & open invitation to a united foundation..? [Was: forking mandriva] +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000378.html">[Mageia-discuss] Artwork - Mageia Logo contest +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1276">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1276">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1276">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1276">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 4:30 AM, Per Øyvind Karlsen +<<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">peroyvind at mandriva.org</A>>wrote: + +><i> 2010/9/21 Wolfgang Bornath <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">molch.b at googlemail.com</A>>: +</I>><i> > 2010/9/21 Per Øyvind Karlsen <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">peroyvind at mandriva.org</A>>: +</I>><i> >> +</I>><i> >> Oh well, I fear that this I with this post and the proposition might +</I>><i> >> just be flamed to death no matter how sane and justified I may find +</I>><i> >> this that others might consider a flamebait pipedream, or perhaps just +</I>><i> >> ignored which wouldn't surprise me that much either, but as there +</I>><i> >> might just be slight chance of constructive discussion taking place +</I>><i> >> and something of use to someone rather than a new round with +</I>><i> >> distribution of blame and angry voices, I take my chances in the +</I>><i> >> spirit of the greater good for everyone. :o) +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > Hmm, now here we have our old Per Øyvind back, while his person was +</I>><i> > occupied by a demon lately? +</I>><i> Nah, he just rather felt the motivation and ideas about organization +</I>><i> being too different and in contrast, getting in the way of any mutual +</I>><i> goals and hopes, making them irrelevant. But I'd rather focus on +</I>><i> bringing these in line and of mutual interest as well now rather than +</I>><i> criticizing further. ;) +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > What you propose makes the same sense as it made a couple of months +</I>><i> > ago, but the circumstances have changed a lot meanwhile. Yoou can't +</I>><i> > turn back the pages and read again like "Forget what was, here is a +</I>><i> > born again world". Now such a system as you suggest will depend not +</I>><i> > only on technical and economical questions as it was some time ago but +</I>><i> > also on how much trust you can still have / want to have in the +</I>><i> > current powers at Mandriva as well as how much motivation the makers +</I>><i> > of this fork can show to cooperate with a company which has treated +</I>><i> > them as seen in the previous months. This can only be answered by +</I>><i> > those people, not by any other. +</I>><i> Well, you and me both has managed to stay focused on and more care +</I>><i> around the community part despite getting canned from the company +</I>><i> since quite a while ago, and even both had our quarrels with some of +</I>><i> the community as well, independent of our employment, we're still +</I>><i> around. Personally I'd feel rather hypocritical otherwise as any +</I>><i> claims and beliefs of mine about Mandriva Linux being a community +</I>><i> distribution wouldn't be consistent with letting my professional +</I>><i> relations interfer with community involvement. I'd experience it as if +</I>><i> I were setting myself and my own personal feelings towards the +</I>><i> employer in that context, especially if imposing it on the community +</I>><i> and allow for it to dictate their direction.. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> I also feel that the claim about all talents and core developers of +</I>><i> the distribution being quite unfair to those people employed at +</I>><i> Conectiva, which AFAIK still has more people despite all it's previous +</I>><i> departures (which to my understanding most of likely wouldn't have +</I>><i> left either under the current situation where remaining staff chose to +</I>><i> stay) assigned to work on the community distribution than Edge-IT had +</I>><i> when liquidated. This kinda suggests a notion of the whole +</I>><i> distribution and anything of importance revolves around these +</I>><i> relatively few people at Edge-IT, and that the staff at Conectiva, +</I>><i> despite being made up of more people, they're less important.. Same +</I>><i> can be said for community contributors.. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> So, is this the case? If it's not, then there shouldn't be anything in +</I>><i> the way of continuing involvement in the community and help improve it +</I>><i> and setting up a community organization together with and around it, +</I>><i> after all, we're grownups and should know better than taking out our +</I>><i> grudges on others.. +</I>><i> I don't really like implying such and feel uncomfortable about raising +</I>><i> the questions, but there's several details concerning this that raises +</I>><i> the question on where you're actually acting in the community's best +</I>><i> interest or not, if your intentions really are, then I urge you to +</I>><i> reconsider participate in this attempt on establishing a dialogue.. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Certainly there can be other technical differences and desires +</I>><i> motivating the fork as well, making it more desirable for both parties +</I>><i> and allowing for them different focus and priorities without being at +</I>><i> conflict, but this doesn't have to mean that a split has to happen in +</I>><i> the community nor that we cannot work together on creating an +</I>><i> organization together and collaborate rather than burning bridges and +</I>><i> creating grounds for controversy and hostility. As the interest and +</I>><i> desires expressed by Matthew and Unity Linux, and their efforts all +</I>><i> along has shown, there is room for diversity and different focus while +</I>><i> at the same time actively working on improving relations and how to +</I>><i> better complement eachother. +</I>><i> As there's obviously interest for these things in both the Unity and +</I>><i> Mandriva community, why wouldn't there be so in the Mageia community? +</I>><i> If there's not, it wouldn't seem very professional of you, and +</I>><i> certainly not community friendly nor in the community's best interest, +</I>><i> would it? +</I>><i> The official news and strategy announced by Mandriva certainly doesn't +</I>><i> seem to rumours on bad intentions threatening the community or the +</I>><i> distribution's future either, so that shouldn't be the concern +</I>><i> either... +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > And of course it depends on how the powers at Mandriva (I do not mean +</I>><i> > Laprevote but rather his peers) will see such an obligation, which it +</I>><i> > will be for them. Would they see it as a necessary move, I mean +</I>><i> > necessary for their plans, not ours? As we do not know their plans we +</I>><i> > can't even speculate about that. I remember an investor talking to a +</I>><i> > former member of the Mandriva board, advising him to get rid of the +</I>><i> > enduser community because they only keep the company away from +</I>><i> > important work. I don't say that all investors think like that, but +</I>><i> > it's a good example. +</I>><i> Then I guess we should be happy that investor is no longer on the board. ;) +</I>><i> But certainly with regards to the company and related to the changes +</I>><i> in it's management, verifying their current position on the matter and +</I>><i> ensure their actual interest would certainly be useful before assuming +</I>><i> or expecting anything. If we have it and a good dialogue is +</I>><i> established, then much can be done from there. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > Of course, a Mandriva company which really means to carry out what +</I>><i> > Laprevote mentioned in his motivation "news", a Mandriva company which +</I>><i> > starts being communicative and transparent where it is possible, a +</I>><i> > Mandriva company which starts doing what it always claimed to be their +</I>><i> > commitment ("we are committed to the community"), this could be a good +</I>><i> > partner, /me thinks, day dreaming. +</I>><i> Yupp, and we can only find out by giving the chance and try contribute +</I>><i> to this ourself, it's a two-way street after all.. :) +</I>><i> > But as I wrote: I have no voice in this anyway. +</I>><i> Yupp, but we can at least hope to influence in the best interest, for +</I>><i> Mageia I personally didn't really have any real knowledge of before +</I>><i> after it's announcement, so I'm not expecting to even have much of a +</I>><i> voice in by myself, yet I'm hoping logic, reason and mutual benefits +</I>><i> and goals will come out winning in the end.. :) +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > BTW: I thought the chief in hugs was François Bancilhon? :) +</I>><i> Well, I'm his secret twin, and as he weren't granted this overwhelming +</I>><i> responsibility at the first assembly meeting, he has to share the +</I>><i> duties with me, tipsy or not. ;) +</I>><i> +</I>><i> -- +</I>><i> Hugziez&kizzez, +</I>><i> Your BFF <3 +</I>><i> Per Øyvind +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>I am coming in a bit cold into this conversation. Frankly, I am not even +clear on what this discussion is even trying to achieve, so please forgive +me if I steer this off topic. + +What I think is being discussed here is the desire to join the various +communities, at least on a certain level, in an attempt to make +collaborative work easier, if not on a daily basis, then at least on a +roadmap planning basis. Having been part of two MDV derivative developments, +I have come to accept what I believe to be inherent truths governing any +such effort: + + - it is impossible to satisfy everyone all the time. As long as there are + multiple people involved in a community, there will always be diverging + opinions. In large part, it is these ideological disagreements which drive + the communities to fraction. Trying to get everyone on the same page is a + vein effort. The basis for any collaborative work has to be the underlying + understanding that people have their own reasons for doing what they want to + do. Others may not agree with those reasons. Those reasons may not even be + expressed clearly enough to formulate a proper opinion about them. The + bottom line is that communities have to accept this inevitability and work + with it instead of around it. + - nominal participation does not constitute joint development. It takes + more than just an occasional email or attendance of a meeting to claim that + there is "participation". + - there must be numerous participants. Having just one or two delegates + simply does not provide enough penetration across the development + communities to be effective. For example, personal motives can come in the + way, availability of the delegate may be limited due to life events, etc. In + order to guarantee successful sharing across communities, there must be more + than a couple of people sharing the information. + - every participant on all sides must be empowered to contribute to the + decisions. Clearly, this has to be governed by some guidelines. Otherwise, + this may become a free-for-all mess. However, if the contributing members of + the individual distributions don't feel that they have influence over the + partner communities, then the entire communities will drift, or worst still, + rip apart. + +I am 100% for transparency in development and collaborative work. But I do +feel that in order for any such efforts to be successful, the items on the +above list have to be addressed first. In my mind, the success of any +attempt to unite effort will depend on the success of addressing these +topics first. + +Just my 2 cents, +Paul (gri6507). +-------------- next part -------------- +An HTML attachment was scrubbed... +URL: </pipermail/mageia-discuss/attachments/20100921/d0d8b6f1/attachment-0001.html> +</PRE> + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000376.html">[Mageia-discuss] [Cooker] Transparency & open invitation to a united foundation..? 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