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+<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">Στις 12 Απριλίου 2012 7:50 π.μ., ο χρήστης Wolfgang Bornath <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:molch.b@googlemail.com">molch.b@googlemail.com</a>&gt;</span> έγραψε:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
+<div class="im">2012/4/11 Dimitrios Glentadakis &lt;<a href="mailto:dglent@gmail.com">dglent@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>
+&gt; Στις 11/04/2012 19:11:55 Wolfgang Bornath γράψατε:<br>
+&gt;&gt; 2012/4/11 Dimitrios Glentadakis &lt;<a href="mailto:dglent@gmail.com">dglent@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>
+&gt;&gt; &gt; Στις 11/04/2012 16:05:23 γράψατε:<br>
+&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; * I am not at home, actually  how much space they take ? For what kind of<br>
+&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; size we are talking about ?<br>
+&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
+&gt;&gt; &gt; The /usr/share/doc/HTML/en folder has a size of 43.5 MiB, which even now if it takes a lot of place anyone can delete this folder from his system.<br>
+&gt;&gt;<br>
+&gt;&gt; We are not talking about deleting data from the harddisk. We are<br>
+&gt;&gt; talking about installing and uninstalling, not just deleting. The<br>
+&gt;&gt; issue is to avoid the installation (if not wanted) and consequently<br>
+&gt;&gt; avoid updates.<br>
+&gt;&gt;<br>
+&gt;&gt; I expected the discussion about the technical options to be quite long<br>
+&gt;&gt; and not at all trivial, I did not expect such a discussion about the<br>
+&gt;&gt; &quot;why&quot;. There are valid use cases which answer the &quot;why&quot; quite clear<br>
+&gt;&gt; and simple.<br>
+&gt;&gt;<br>
+&gt;&gt;<br>
+&gt;<br>
+&gt; I dont understand very well.<br>
+<br>
+</div>Yes, I see.<br>
+<div class="im"><br>
+&gt; - We dont have a lot of space so we want to be able to uninstall some software and it has to be the documentation as the most unwanted ?<br>
+&gt; - We want for a question of free choice to be able to choose if we want the documentation to be installed or not ? but this has to be the same for all kde software and dependencies, why is the documentation the problem.<br>
+
+<br>
+</div>We have been talking about handbooks because they are single packages<br>
+(not included in the software package) which are not needed/wanted by<br>
+everybody and they are not necessary to run the software.<br>
+<div class="im"><br>
+&gt; Dont forget that is a part of KDE and it has a global shortcut F1 to access it. If there is a case that it will be not available until the user install it in a additionally way, it breaks the upstream software.<br>
+<br>
+</div>The important word in your sentence is &quot;if&quot;. This does not apply to<br>
+simple applications like kcalc or some simple games or whatever you<br>
+may regard as &quot;simple apps&quot;. And as said before: it does not break the<br>
+<div class="im">upstream software.<br></div></blockquote><div><br>I don&#39;t agree, i consider the handbook as a part of the application, and for me a KDE installation without the handbooks it is a broken installation.<br>
+My opinion is that the person who does nt want it has to uninstall it and not that the person who want it has to install it<br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
+<div class="im">
+<br>
+&gt; It is truth that i spend a lot of time to translate documentation, and i do it with love, so it is normal that i have a preference in their existence in the system; certainly i cannot use this argument here.<br>
+<br>
+</div>Yes, you have to live with that like we all have to. I already said that.<br></blockquote><div><br>Yes i have to ...IF finally a such decision will be taken<br></div></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div>Dimitrios Glentadakis</div>
+<br>
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+<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">Στις 12 Απριλίου 2012 7:50 π.μ., ο χρήστης Wolfgang Bornath <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:molch.b@googlemail.com">molch.b@googlemail.com</a>&gt;</span> έγραψε:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
+<div class="im">2012/4/11 Dimitrios Glentadakis &lt;<a href="mailto:dglent@gmail.com">dglent@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>
+&gt; Στις 11/04/2012 19:11:55 Wolfgang Bornath γράψατε:<br>
+&gt;&gt; 2012/4/11 Dimitrios Glentadakis &lt;<a href="mailto:dglent@gmail.com">dglent@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>
+&gt;&gt; &gt; Στις 11/04/2012 16:05:23 γράψατε:<br>
+&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; * I am not at home, actually  how much space they take ? For what kind of<br>
+&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; size we are talking about ?<br>
+&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
+&gt;&gt; &gt; The /usr/share/doc/HTML/en folder has a size of 43.5 MiB, which even now if it takes a lot of place anyone can delete this folder from his system.<br>
+&gt;&gt;<br>
+&gt;&gt; We are not talking about deleting data from the harddisk. We are<br>
+&gt;&gt; talking about installing and uninstalling, not just deleting. The<br>
+&gt;&gt; issue is to avoid the installation (if not wanted) and consequently<br>
+&gt;&gt; avoid updates.<br>
+&gt;&gt;<br>
+&gt;&gt; I expected the discussion about the technical options to be quite long<br>
+&gt;&gt; and not at all trivial, I did not expect such a discussion about the<br>
+&gt;&gt; &quot;why&quot;. There are valid use cases which answer the &quot;why&quot; quite clear<br>
+&gt;&gt; and simple.<br>
+&gt;&gt;<br>
+&gt;&gt;<br>
+&gt;<br>
+&gt; I dont understand very well.<br>
+<br>
+</div>Yes, I see.<br>
+<div class="im"><br>
+&gt; - We dont have a lot of space so we want to be able to uninstall some software and it has to be the documentation as the most unwanted ?<br>
+&gt; - We want for a question of free choice to be able to choose if we want the documentation to be installed or not ? but this has to be the same for all kde software and dependencies, why is the documentation the problem.<br>
+
+<br>
+</div>We have been talking about handbooks because they are single packages<br>
+(not included in the software package) which are not needed/wanted by<br>
+everybody and they are not necessary to run the software.<br>
+<div class="im"><br>
+&gt; Dont forget that is a part of KDE and it has a global shortcut F1 to access it. If there is a case that it will be not available until the user install it in a additionally way, it breaks the upstream software.<br>
+<br>
+</div>The important word in your sentence is &quot;if&quot;. This does not apply to<br>
+simple applications like kcalc or some simple games or whatever you<br>
+may regard as &quot;simple apps&quot;. And as said before: it does not break the<br>
+<div class="im">upstream software.<br></div></blockquote><div><br>I don&#39;t agree, i consider the handbook as a part of the application, and for me a KDE installation without the handbooks it is a broken installation.<br>
+My opinion is that the person who does nt want it has to uninstall it and not that the person who want it has to install it<br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
+<div class="im">
+<br>
+&gt; It is truth that i spend a lot of time to translate documentation, and i do it with love, so it is normal that i have a preference in their existence in the system; certainly i cannot use this argument here.<br>
+<br>
+</div>Yes, you have to live with that like we all have to. I already said that.<br></blockquote><div><br>Yes i have to ...IF finally a such decision will be taken<br></div></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div>Dimitrios Glentadakis</div>
+<br>
diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/attachments/20120412/72967659/attachment-0001.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/attachments/20120412/72967659/attachment-0001.html
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+<p></p>
+<p>2012/4/12 Wolfgang Bornath &lt;<a href="mailto:molch.b@googlemail.com">molch.b@googlemail.com</a>&gt;:<br>
+[...]<br>
+&gt; We have been talking about handbooks because they are single packages<br>
+&gt; (not included in the software package) which are not needed/wanted by<br>
+&gt; everybody and they are not necessary to run the software.<br>
+Handbooks *are* part of the software and &quot;artificially&quot; generate as standalone package to fix a bug affecting live cd where this documentation was not available to ease *installation* of it instead of reinstall all of it.<br>
+
+If we&#39;re able in the future to get more space on our live-cd you can be sure that i&#39;ll (if I&#39;m still in charge) revert this ugly hack.<br>
+For the record luc also fix the installation of wrong handbooks on the DVD install ( only the suggests one should be installed with the correct app) &amp; I&#39;ll try to fix the last remaining bug pointed by anssi where a handbook could stay available when the related app is removed.</p>
+
+<p>Regards,</p>
+<p>-- <br>
+Balcaen John<br>
+Jabber-id: <a href="mailto:mikala@jabber.littleboboy.net">mikala@jabber.littleboboy.net</a><br>
+</p>
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+<p></p>
+<p>2012/4/12 Wolfgang Bornath &lt;<a href="mailto:molch.b@googlemail.com">molch.b@googlemail.com</a>&gt;:<br>
+[...]<br>
+&gt; We have been talking about handbooks because they are single packages<br>
+&gt; (not included in the software package) which are not needed/wanted by<br>
+&gt; everybody and they are not necessary to run the software.<br>
+Handbooks *are* part of the software and &quot;artificially&quot; generate as standalone package to fix a bug affecting live cd where this documentation was not available to ease *installation* of it instead of reinstall all of it.<br>
+
+If we&#39;re able in the future to get more space on our live-cd you can be sure that i&#39;ll (if I&#39;m still in charge) revert this ugly hack.<br>
+For the record luc also fix the installation of wrong handbooks on the DVD install ( only the suggests one should be installed with the correct app) &amp; I&#39;ll try to fix the last remaining bug pointed by anssi where a handbook could stay available when the related app is removed.</p>
+
+<p>Regards,</p>
+<p>-- <br>
+Balcaen John<br>
+Jabber-id: <a href="mailto:mikala@jabber.littleboboy.net">mikala@jabber.littleboboy.net</a><br>
+</p>
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+<p>Le 12 avr. 2012 06:38, &quot;Wolfgang Bornath&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:molch.b@googlemail.com">molch.b@googlemail.com</a>&gt; a écrit :<br>
+&gt;<br>
+[...]</p>
+<p>&gt; I am strictly opposed to include documentation in a software package,<br>
+&gt; in general, not only in the case at hand. Although I spent much time<br>
+&gt; for voluntary translation work, I still think it is up to the user if<br>
+&gt; he wants/needs the documentation. A prominent example which matches my<br>
+&gt; POV is The Gimp.<br>
+&gt;<br>
+&gt; Reality is that in non-technical issues people in charge decide on the<br>
+&gt; basis of their opinion. That&#39;s the normal way and the rest has to live<br>
+&gt; with it. I have no problem with that.</p>
+<p>You should here open a bug report on kde bugzilla then to get attention &amp; remove documentation from every kde tarball/project (which also means to deal with the F1 shortcut &amp; have a dynamic help menu)</p>
+<p>&gt;<br>
+&gt; &gt; For the record luc also fix the installation of wrong handbooks on the DVD<br>
+&gt; &gt; install ( only the suggests one should be installed with the correct app) &amp;<br>
+&gt; &gt; I&#39;ll try to fix the last remaining bug pointed by anssi where a handbook<br>
+&gt; &gt; could stay available when the related app is removed.<br>
+&gt;<br>
+&gt; If non-installation of handbooks is not possible then at least make it<br>
+&gt; possible to *uninstall* handbooks without having to use &#39;rpm --nodeps&#39;<br>
+&gt; on each and every one.<br>
+I don&#39;t remember having a package requiring his handbook at all since I used suggests here especially to fix the live cd problem I pointed earlier.<br>
+The idea is to ensure that you&#39;ll get kcal handbook removed when kcal package is removed.</p>
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+<p>Le 12 avr. 2012 06:38, &quot;Wolfgang Bornath&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:molch.b@googlemail.com">molch.b@googlemail.com</a>&gt; a écrit :<br>
+&gt;<br>
+[...]</p>
+<p>&gt; I am strictly opposed to include documentation in a software package,<br>
+&gt; in general, not only in the case at hand. Although I spent much time<br>
+&gt; for voluntary translation work, I still think it is up to the user if<br>
+&gt; he wants/needs the documentation. A prominent example which matches my<br>
+&gt; POV is The Gimp.<br>
+&gt;<br>
+&gt; Reality is that in non-technical issues people in charge decide on the<br>
+&gt; basis of their opinion. That&#39;s the normal way and the rest has to live<br>
+&gt; with it. I have no problem with that.</p>
+<p>You should here open a bug report on kde bugzilla then to get attention &amp; remove documentation from every kde tarball/project (which also means to deal with the F1 shortcut &amp; have a dynamic help menu)</p>
+<p>&gt;<br>
+&gt; &gt; For the record luc also fix the installation of wrong handbooks on the DVD<br>
+&gt; &gt; install ( only the suggests one should be installed with the correct app) &amp;<br>
+&gt; &gt; I&#39;ll try to fix the last remaining bug pointed by anssi where a handbook<br>
+&gt; &gt; could stay available when the related app is removed.<br>
+&gt;<br>
+&gt; If non-installation of handbooks is not possible then at least make it<br>
+&gt; possible to *uninstall* handbooks without having to use &#39;rpm --nodeps&#39;<br>
+&gt; on each and every one.<br>
+I don&#39;t remember having a package requiring his handbook at all since I used suggests here especially to fix the live cd problem I pointed earlier.<br>
+The idea is to ensure that you&#39;ll get kcal handbook removed when kcal package is removed.</p>
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