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diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/2011-June/006036.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/2011-June/006036.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..290f88ef9 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/2011-June/006036.html @@ -0,0 +1,223 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Update of backport, policy proposal + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Update%20of%20backport%2C%20policy%20proposal&In-Reply-To=%3C1309085870.22020.294.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="006039.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="006041.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Update of backport, policy proposal</H1> + <B>Michael Scherer</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Update%20of%20backport%2C%20policy%20proposal&In-Reply-To=%3C1309085870.22020.294.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Update of backport, policy proposal">misc at zarb.org + </A><BR> + <I>Sun Jun 26 12:57:49 CEST 2011</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="006039.html">[Mageia-dev] Update of backport, policy proposal +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="006041.html">[Mageia-dev] Update of backport, policy proposal +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#6036">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#6036">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#6036">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#6036">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Le dimanche 26 juin 2011 à 11:58 +0300, atilla ontas a écrit : +><i> 2011/6/26 Wolfgang Bornath <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">molch.b at googlemail.com</A>>: +</I>><i> > A short reality check from userside: +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > If foo-1.0 is in Mageia 1 and foo-1.1 is released upstream +</I>><i> > - foo-1.1 will likely be integrated in Cauldron very soon after +</I>><i> > - users will request to have foo-1.1 in Mageia 1 +</I>><i> > - if Mageia will not provide it then there will soon be local +</I>><i> > repositories where local packagers will do a "backport" for their +</I>><i> > friends. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > This may not be what Mageia backport policy will allow but we can not +</I>><i> > avoid people doing and using this, no matter how many warning signs we +</I>><i> > will publish. This has to be taken into account here. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > When a policy is found it has to be communicated very well, especially +</I>><i> > if that policy means that the user can not have foo-1.1 in his stable +</I>><i> > Mageia 1. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > This is important because former Mandriva users were used to get +</I>><i> > almost all new versions backported, if not officially then in 3rd +</I>><i> > party repos like MIB or MUD. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > -- +</I>><i> > wobo +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> Hi. I'm following this threat from the very beginning. While reading, +</I>><i> i feel i'm reading a Mandriva Cooker mailing list posts. As a +</I>><i> community distro, why Mageia developers still think like a Mandriva +</I>><i> employee? Why backports and why so many policies, like a commercial +</I>><i> enterprise distro? I mean, Mageia do not have paid developers to work +</I>><i> on packages all the time. Also Mageia do not have so many packagers +</I>><i> like Fedora or Ubuntu, So, why make so many things so hard? +</I> +If you adequate "commercial distro == policy", then I think you missed +some steps. Just look at the number of packaging policy on Debian and +Fedora. + +For debian start at <A HREF="http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/">http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/</A> ( and +various sub policy : <A HREF="http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/">http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/</A> , not +to count others that you can find on subteam such as +<A HREF="http://pkg-haskell.alioth.debian.org/haskell-policy/">http://pkg-haskell.alioth.debian.org/haskell-policy/</A> ). + +For Fedora, just look at : +<A HREF="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Packaging_guidelines">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Packaging_guidelines</A> + + +We have open processes and not free-for-all because : +- we can be sure that everybody do the same thing and know what can be +done or not, ie, work like a community. + +- we can direct newcomers to the our standard, as telling "you will +discover by yourself" would be quite unfriendly to them. This is +therefor required for and by growth. + +- a goal of a distribution is to have a coherent set of packages ( other +wise, we , and to have that, we need to have a coherent set of rules, so +they can inter-operate. + +- we want to set proper expectations. Expectations of those that use the +system, because they have the guarantee of stability, or of having newer +rpms. Expectation of the packager, because he know what can be done and +would fail. + +><i> As wobo mentioned, people like latest and greatest software. I think, +</I>><i> except a few users will use unofficial 3rd party repos to get latest +</I>><i> software. While i was maintaining MVT (Mandriva Turkiye) repository, +</I>><i> our users asked for GNOME 2.32 while Mandriva have GNOME 2.30 on +</I>><i> official release. +</I> +And others people mentioned that people want also stable software and do +not want changes. But as I said, what people want is not as important +than what we can do, and so the decision is in the end of those that do +the work rather than what people want, because if no one does the work, +nothing happen. + +><i> Personally i always hate the backports structure and policy. It +</I>><i> confuses minds. Why Mageia need a backports repo, i really do not +</I>><i> understand. Stability and bug free releases are of course a must. But +</I>><i> it needs developers dedicated to work, almost paid developers. If a +</I>><i> software do not related with core system, like vlc, it should included +</I>><i> updates repo. Let upstream fix bugs and security issues. +</I> +So what you suggest is do like arch ? +And when upstream is unable to reproduce the issue ( because he doesn't +run the same distribution than the users that report ), what should be +done ? + +><i> If a packager +</I>><i> catchs a bug he should send a patch to upstream and wait for a new +</I>><i> release. Otherwise, it is not packaging it is coding, which many +</I>><i> potential packgers will avoid to contribute. +</I> +Sending a patch is coding. In fact, the more complex part is not to send +a email with the file attached, it is to write the patch. + +And once you have the patch, it is trivial to apply it to the rpm. + +So the alternative is either we try to fixng for the bug ( which several +packagers are perfectly able to do ), or we wait until it is fixed +( which is usually unsatisfying for the users as some of them will see +this as "the packager refused to listen to me and fix the bug" ). + +><i> Look at Debian and Arch Linux who haven't any paid developers but +</I>><i> community distros. Stable Debian releases provide software from a +</I>><i> century ago for the sake of stability. +</I> +Do not exaggerate. Software in Debian were perfectly fine when they were +out, ( usually 1 to 2 year ago ), and now, they are "from a century +ago" ? + +And as lebahron noted in another thread, several people want stable +release. Look at the time people kept windows xp. + +><i> Arch provides latest software +</I>><i> including core system and occaionally have breakages. I think Mageia +</I>><i> should be between two of them. Release latest software in updates for +</I>><i> non core system and libs, keep core system stable. Remove this +</I>><i> backports thingy. +</I> +Sure, can you first start to define what is "non core" ( especially in +the light of all SRPMS we currently have ) ? Bear in mind the various +requires between all the required components. + +Usually, I recommend to people to look at various *BSD, as they provides +exactly that, a core system with pkgsrc. The core is well defined, and +everything below is updated with compiled ports. + +But this requires to use a totally different workflow regarding kernel, +glibc, coreutils etc, so people would have to convince kernel developers +and glibc one first before anything. And I think the distribution that +try to mimic this ( mimic because, unlike a bsd project, they do not +take care of the libc and kernel part ) would be either Slackware or +Arch. + +-- +Michael Scherer + +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="006039.html">[Mageia-dev] Update of backport, policy proposal +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="006041.html">[Mageia-dev] Update of backport, policy proposal +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#6036">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#6036">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#6036">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#6036">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> |