diff options
Diffstat (limited to 'zarb-ml/mageia-dev/2011-August/007586.html')
| -rw-r--r-- | zarb-ml/mageia-dev/2011-August/007586.html | 228 |
1 files changed, 228 insertions, 0 deletions
diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/2011-August/007586.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/2011-August/007586.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..71bbbf2c6 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/2011-August/007586.html @@ -0,0 +1,228 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] [fedora-arm] ARM summit at Plumbers 2011 + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20%5Bfedora-arm%5D%20ARM%20summit%20at%20Plumbers%202011&In-Reply-To=%3CCAPweEDxJO0%3DtFOHhiiiDvucQYZ-0EJZZbsqWwc7BHrZQ2%3Da5sQ%40mail.gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="007585.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="007587.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] [fedora-arm] ARM summit at Plumbers 2011</H1> + <B>Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20%5Bfedora-arm%5D%20ARM%20summit%20at%20Plumbers%202011&In-Reply-To=%3CCAPweEDxJO0%3DtFOHhiiiDvucQYZ-0EJZZbsqWwc7BHrZQ2%3Da5sQ%40mail.gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] [fedora-arm] ARM summit at Plumbers 2011">lkcl at lkcl.net + </A><BR> + <I>Fri Aug 26 23:02:09 CEST 2011</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="007585.html">[Mageia-dev] [fedora-arm] ARM summit at Plumbers 2011 +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="007587.html">[Mageia-dev] [lsb-discuss] [fedora-arm] ARM summit at Plumbers 2011 +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#7586">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#7586">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#7586">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#7586">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>russell, good to hear from you. + +can i recommend, that although this is a really wide set of +cross-posting on a discussion that underpins pretty much everything +(except gnu/hurd and minix) because it's linux kernel, that, just as +steve kindly advised, we keep this to e.g. +<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">cross-distro at lists.linaro.org</A>? i'll be doing that from now on [after +this] perhaps including arm-netbooks as well, but will be taking off +all the distros. + +so - folks, let's be clear: please move this discussion to +<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">cross-distro at lists.linaro.org</A>, and, if it's worthwhile discussing in +person, please do contact steve, so he can keep the slot open at the +Plumbers 2011 summit. + +On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 5:35 PM, Russell King - ARM Linux +<<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">linux at arm.linux.org.uk</A>> wrote: +><i> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:11:41AM -0500, Bill Gatliff wrote: +</I>>><i> As such refactoring consolidated larger and larger chunks of kernel +</I>>><i> code, new designs would gravitate towards those consolidated +</I>>><i> implementations because they would be the dominant references. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Don't bet on it.  That's not how it works (unfortunately.) +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Just look at the many serial port inventions dreamt up by SoC designers - +</I>><i> everyone is different from each other.  Now consider: why didn't they use +</I>><i> a well established standard 16550A or later design? +</I> + *sigh* because they wanted to save power. or pins. or... just be +bloody-minded. + +><i> This "need to be different" is so heavily embedded in the mindset of the +</I>><i> hardware people that I doubt "providing consolidated implementations" +</I>><i> will make the blind bit of difference. +</I> + i think... russell... after they are told, repeatedly, "no, you can't +have that pile of junk in the mainline linux kernel, Get With The +Programme", you'd think that, cumulatively if they end up having to +maintain a 6mb patch full of such shit, they _might_ get with the +programme? + + and if they don't, well.... who honestly cares? if they don't, it's +not *your* problem, is it? _they_ pay their employees to continue to +main a pile of junk, instead of spongeing off of _your_ time (and +linus's, and everyone else's in the Free Software Community). + + +><i>  I doubt that hardware people +</I>><i> coming up with these abominations even care one bit about what's in +</I>><i> the kernel. +</I> + then don't f******g make it _your_ problem, or anyone else's, upstream!! :) + + this is the core of the proposal that i have been advocating: if it's +"selfish", i.e. as bill and many many others clearly agree with "if +the bang-per-buck ratio is on the low side" then keep it *out* the +mainline linux kernel... + + ... and that really is the end of the matter. + +the sensible people that i've been talking to about this are truly +puzzled as to why the principles of "cooperation and collaboration" +behind free software are just being... completely ignored, in +something as vital as The Linux Kernel, and they feel that it's really +blindingly obvious that the "bang-per-buck" ratio of patches to +mainline linux kernel need to go up. + + so the core of the proposal that is the proposed +"selfish-vs-cooperation patch policy" is quite simple: if the patch +has _some_ evidence of collaboration, cooperation, refactoring, +sharing - *anything* that increases the bang-per-buck ratio with +respect to the core fundamental principles of Free Software - it goes +to the next phase [which is technical evaluation etc. etc.]. +otherwise, it's absolutely out, regardless of its technical +correctness, and that's the end of it. + + the linux kernel mainline source tree should *not* be a +dumping-ground for a bunch of selfish self-centred pathological +profit-mongering corporations whose employees end up apologising in +sheer embarrassment as they submit time-pressured absolutely shit +non-cooperative and impossible-to-maintain code. + + you're not the only one, russell, who is pissed off at having to tidy +up SoC vendors' patches. there's another ARM-Linux guy, forget his +name, specialises in samsung: two years ago he said that he was +getting fed up with receiving yet another pile of rushed junk... and +that's *just* him, specialising in samsung ARM SoCs! + +we're just stunned that you, the recipient of _multiple_ SoC vendors +piles of shite, have tolerated this for so long! + +anyway - i've endeavoured to put together some examples, in case +that's not clear: i admit it's quite hard to create clear examples, +and would greatly appreciate help doing so. i've had some very much +appreciated help from one of the openwrt developers (thanks!) +clarifying by creating another example that's similar to one which +wasn't clear. + + <A HREF="http://lkcl.net/linux/linux-selfish.vs.cooperation.html">http://lkcl.net/linux/linux-selfish.vs.cooperation.html</A> + +this should be _fun_, guys. it shouldn't be a chore. if you're not +enjoying it, and not being paid, tell the people who are clearly +taking the piss to f*** off! + + but - i also would like to underscore this with another idea: "lead +by example" (which is why i've kept the large cross-distro list) we - +the free software community - are seeing tons of nice lovely android +tablets, tons of nice lovely expensive bits of big iron and/or x86 +laptops, and only in very small areas (OpenRD Ultimate, GuruPlug, +Pandaboard, IMX53QSB, Origen) are our needs for actual hardware which +_we_ want (and i'm *not* being presumptious here - i'm inviting people +to *say* what they want) just aren't being met. + + who wants a bloody 800x600 VIA VunnnderMedia ARM9 350mhz tablet, to +do linux kernel and gnu/linux distribution development on, _anyway_??? + and who the hell wants only 512mb of RAM (iMX51). and who in their +right fucking mind dreamed up that 1024x600 LCD panel size? + + so here's what i propose: + + we, The Free Software Community, want Our Figureheads (linus, bruce, +alan, russell) to call us to arms (so to speak), to band together a la +KickStarter <A HREF="http://kickstarter.org">http://kickstarter.org</A> (or other), so that we can create +the hardware platform(s) that *we* want, and, in the process, can take +the opportunity to sort out the Linux Kernel mainline tree in the +process (learning by doing, doing by leading, leading by example etc. +etc.) + + apart from anything - and this goes to you, linus and russell - i +think that you would be much happier taking a break from doing git +patch conflict management, _actually_ getting down and dirty with some +real device driver writing, and i think you'd be much happier doing +that knowing that the device you were writing those kernel drivers for +was something that actual real free software developers really really +wanted. + + now, as i said above: i don't _dare_ to presume that i know what +actual real free software developers want, in terms of hardware, but +there's a small sampling on the debian-arm mailing list... let me drop +you roughly in the middle of it, here: +<A HREF="http://lists.debian.org/debian-arm/2011/08/msg00045.html">http://lists.debian.org/debian-arm/2011/08/msg00045.html</A> mostly that +was focussed around those little engineering boards (panda, IMX53QSB, +origen etc.) but my aim here is to get people to think: + + what hardware, which is fully free-software-compliant, that you would +buy and recommend to others, that could also be attractive in +mass-volume, do _you_ want to see, that would be useful to _you_? + + i'm getting fed up of seeing stuff come out of factories that's +completely useless. or gpl-violating. and/or requires +reverse-engineering. +<A HREF="http://lkcl.net/linux/ideal-vs-reality.of.product.development.html">http://lkcl.net/linux/ideal-vs-reality.of.product.development.html</A> for +some background. + + as a free software developer, what hardware do YOU want? + + answers on this one to <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">arm-netbooks at lists.phcomp.co.uk</A> (subscription +required, please remember) + + and, lastly - linus, russell, alan, bruce: there are people out there +who would really appreciate if you could take up this call. not just +me. we'd like to see you using your skills, and actually be happy and +enjoy doing nitty-gritty linux kernel development, to the benefit of +the free software community, instead of turning into patch +junkies^H^H^H^H^H^Hmonkeys^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hmanagers. + + l. +</PRE> + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="007585.html">[Mageia-dev] [fedora-arm] ARM summit at Plumbers 2011 +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="007587.html">[Mageia-dev] [lsb-discuss] [fedora-arm] ARM summit at Plumbers 2011 +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#7586">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#7586">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#7586">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#7586">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> |