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+ <H1>[Mageia-dev] Proposal: Deprecate draknetcenter+network init scripts after systemd becomes default.</H1>
+ <B>Buchan Milne</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Proposal%3A%20Deprecate%20draknetcenter%2Bnetwork%20init%0A%09scripts%20after%20systemd%20becomes%20default.&In-Reply-To=%3C201108240919.06359.bgmilne%40staff.telkomsa.net%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Proposal: Deprecate draknetcenter+network init scripts after systemd becomes default.">bgmilne at staff.telkomsa.net
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Wed Aug 24 09:19:03 CEST 2011</I>
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+<PRE>On Tuesday, 23 August 2011 15:30:45 Colin Guthrie wrote:
+&gt;<i> 'Twas brillig, and Guillaume Rousse at 23/08/11 12:16 did gyre and gimble:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; On 23/08/2011 12:26, Colin Guthrie wrote:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt;&gt; How would removing initscripts support helps enhancing networkmanager
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt;&gt; integration ?
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; Because the current philosophy of the Unix legacy is lots of individual
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; utils from various packages cobbled together with some glue shell
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; scripting code... and it's dying.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; The things that these individual tools implement are a few relatively
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; simply commands to the kernel and it doesn't make sense to do all this
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; in shell. It makes much more sense to do all these jobs in efficient
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; code that runs *quickly* without forking hundreds of times. The code is
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; still perfectly visible and easily hackable, but now things are much
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; more robust and efficient.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; Booting faster makes sense on desktops, not on servers.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Agreed, but on servers additional capabilities are added that I very
+</I>&gt;<i> much care about (much more than I care about boot speed on my laptop if
+</I>&gt;<i> I'm honest - with my SSD I'm looking at a 1 or 2 second boots - who
+</I>&gt;<i> cares about that!). I'm actually much more excited about systemd on the
+</I>&gt;<i> server than I am on a desktop.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> The cgroup management
+</I>
+We don't even have libcgroup or equivalent in the distribution yet ... so I
+would say is is a bit premature to show this as an advantage IMHO ...
+
+&gt;<i> and the ability to restart network services
+</I>&gt;<i> without losing a single connection is a revelation for me.
+</I>
+Have all the services got support for this yet?
+
+&gt;<i> I will no
+</I>&gt;<i> longer worry about restarting apache because it might mess up a
+</I>&gt;<i> webservice request or similar. And if I get rooted and find rogue
+</I>&gt;<i> processes running, I'll be able to know exactly what service actually
+</I>&gt;<i> started that process which is incredibly useful when dealing with the
+</I>&gt;<i> mess left by intrusions.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; My general
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; impression in this new trend (systemd, networkmanager, etc...) is the
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; need to compete with proprietary system (macos, windows) on end-user
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; segment, at the cost of genericity and simplicity.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> I think the simplicity argument is bogus. You are (IMO) confusing
+</I>&gt;<i> simplicity with ease of readability. Sure you can read through a script,
+</I>&gt;<i> but the process of starting and maintaining services now becomes
+</I>&gt;<i> *standard*. I don't have to read scripts for every single one of the
+</I>&gt;<i> 1000s of init'ed services,
+</I>
+I really don't read the scripts for every service, but quite often I do need
+to adjust some setting catered for in the script, so I read
+/etc/sysconfig/foo, and adjust it there.
+
+Although I have read a number of the systemd blogs, there are still some
+unanswered questions. Such as, what should happen to utility functions in the
+init scripts (e.g. 'service apache configtest' or 'service ldap check'), or
+other checks that are done in the init script before starting the service
+(such as ensuring ownership of files by the ldap user, which is a common trap
+users fall into after doing an import, or re-indexing).
+
+&gt;<i> I just need to understand the process of
+</I>&gt;<i> services management in general and I can pretty much work with
+</I>&gt;<i> everything.
+</I>
+Surely 'service foo {start|stop|restart|reload}' is also a generic approach to
+services management?
+
+&gt;<i> When you appreciate that, you'll see that systemd makes
+</I>&gt;<i> things much simpler overall. Sure you can't read a script, but that, in
+</I>&gt;<i> itself, has nothing to do with simplicity. Individual scripts tweaking
+</I>&gt;<i> certain things and adding secret arguments and such like is far, far
+</I>&gt;<i> more complex than a unified and defined way of working.
+</I>
+But, sometimes they are required, and what is the replacement for the
+functionality?
+
+&gt;<i> And yes, if we're honest, MacOS has a far superior boot system in
+</I>&gt;<i> launchd and the networking support is also better with it's fast-start
+</I>&gt;<i> DHCP and other such nice things.
+</I>
+And MacOS has good server market share?
+
+&gt;<i> I'm not suggesting network manager on servers here FWIW, but I think
+</I>&gt;<i> your reluctance to change should be massively outweighed by the benefits
+</I>&gt;<i> these changes bring, both to the server platform and to desktop systems.
+</I>
+The rest of the discussion in this mail by now was about systemd. For
+NetworkManager, I have some more questions.
+
+At present, a number of my machines have scripts that hook into the network
+scripts. For example, one to update the bind forwarders from the DNS IPs
+returned by pppd when the interface comes up. On another machine, a script
+that unloads the wireless broadband driver when the interface goes down (I
+think this modem has buggy firmware). Then, there are the existing scripts
+shipped in the distribution (e.g. to reload squid).
+
+In the NetworkManager world, are all of these taken care of? If not, and I
+have to script them myself, now I guess I have to hook in to NM via dbus?
+
+Regards,
+Buchan
+</PRE>
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