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diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/2011-August/007481.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/2011-August/007481.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..2be8e1f26 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/2011-August/007481.html @@ -0,0 +1,182 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Proposal: Deprecate draknetcenter+network init scripts after systemd becomes default. + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Proposal%3A%20Deprecate%20draknetcenter%2Bnetwork%20init%0A%09scripts%20after%20systemd%20becomes%20default.&In-Reply-To=%3C201108240919.06359.bgmilne%40staff.telkomsa.net%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="007453.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="007484.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Proposal: Deprecate draknetcenter+network init scripts after systemd becomes default.</H1> + <B>Buchan Milne</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Proposal%3A%20Deprecate%20draknetcenter%2Bnetwork%20init%0A%09scripts%20after%20systemd%20becomes%20default.&In-Reply-To=%3C201108240919.06359.bgmilne%40staff.telkomsa.net%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Proposal: Deprecate draknetcenter+network init scripts after systemd becomes default.">bgmilne at staff.telkomsa.net + </A><BR> + <I>Wed Aug 24 09:19:03 CEST 2011</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="007453.html">[Mageia-dev] Proposal: Deprecate draknetcenter+network init scripts after systemd becomes default. +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="007484.html">[Mageia-dev] Proposal: Deprecate draknetcenter+network init scripts after systemd becomes default. +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#7481">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#7481">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#7481">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#7481">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>On Tuesday, 23 August 2011 15:30:45 Colin Guthrie wrote: +><i> 'Twas brillig, and Guillaume Rousse at 23/08/11 12:16 did gyre and gimble: +</I>><i> > On 23/08/2011 12:26, Colin Guthrie wrote: +</I>><i> >>> How would removing initscripts support helps enhancing networkmanager +</I>><i> >>> integration ? +</I>><i> >> +</I>><i> >> Because the current philosophy of the Unix legacy is lots of individual +</I>><i> >> utils from various packages cobbled together with some glue shell +</I>><i> >> scripting code... and it's dying. +</I>><i> >> +</I>><i> >> The things that these individual tools implement are a few relatively +</I>><i> >> simply commands to the kernel and it doesn't make sense to do all this +</I>><i> >> in shell. It makes much more sense to do all these jobs in efficient +</I>><i> >> code that runs *quickly* without forking hundreds of times. The code is +</I>><i> >> still perfectly visible and easily hackable, but now things are much +</I>><i> >> more robust and efficient. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > Booting faster makes sense on desktops, not on servers. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Agreed, but on servers additional capabilities are added that I very +</I>><i> much care about (much more than I care about boot speed on my laptop if +</I>><i> I'm honest - with my SSD I'm looking at a 1 or 2 second boots - who +</I>><i> cares about that!). I'm actually much more excited about systemd on the +</I>><i> server than I am on a desktop. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> The cgroup management +</I> +We don't even have libcgroup or equivalent in the distribution yet ... so I +would say is is a bit premature to show this as an advantage IMHO ... + +><i> and the ability to restart network services +</I>><i> without losing a single connection is a revelation for me. +</I> +Have all the services got support for this yet? + +><i> I will no +</I>><i> longer worry about restarting apache because it might mess up a +</I>><i> webservice request or similar. And if I get rooted and find rogue +</I>><i> processes running, I'll be able to know exactly what service actually +</I>><i> started that process which is incredibly useful when dealing with the +</I>><i> mess left by intrusions. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> > My general +</I>><i> > impression in this new trend (systemd, networkmanager, etc...) is the +</I>><i> > need to compete with proprietary system (macos, windows) on end-user +</I>><i> > segment, at the cost of genericity and simplicity. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> I think the simplicity argument is bogus. You are (IMO) confusing +</I>><i> simplicity with ease of readability. Sure you can read through a script, +</I>><i> but the process of starting and maintaining services now becomes +</I>><i> *standard*. I don't have to read scripts for every single one of the +</I>><i> 1000s of init'ed services, +</I> +I really don't read the scripts for every service, but quite often I do need +to adjust some setting catered for in the script, so I read +/etc/sysconfig/foo, and adjust it there. + +Although I have read a number of the systemd blogs, there are still some +unanswered questions. Such as, what should happen to utility functions in the +init scripts (e.g. 'service apache configtest' or 'service ldap check'), or +other checks that are done in the init script before starting the service +(such as ensuring ownership of files by the ldap user, which is a common trap +users fall into after doing an import, or re-indexing). + +><i> I just need to understand the process of +</I>><i> services management in general and I can pretty much work with +</I>><i> everything. +</I> +Surely 'service foo {start|stop|restart|reload}' is also a generic approach to +services management? + +><i> When you appreciate that, you'll see that systemd makes +</I>><i> things much simpler overall. Sure you can't read a script, but that, in +</I>><i> itself, has nothing to do with simplicity. Individual scripts tweaking +</I>><i> certain things and adding secret arguments and such like is far, far +</I>><i> more complex than a unified and defined way of working. +</I> +But, sometimes they are required, and what is the replacement for the +functionality? + +><i> And yes, if we're honest, MacOS has a far superior boot system in +</I>><i> launchd and the networking support is also better with it's fast-start +</I>><i> DHCP and other such nice things. +</I> +And MacOS has good server market share? + +><i> I'm not suggesting network manager on servers here FWIW, but I think +</I>><i> your reluctance to change should be massively outweighed by the benefits +</I>><i> these changes bring, both to the server platform and to desktop systems. +</I> +The rest of the discussion in this mail by now was about systemd. For +NetworkManager, I have some more questions. + +At present, a number of my machines have scripts that hook into the network +scripts. For example, one to update the bind forwarders from the DNS IPs +returned by pppd when the interface comes up. On another machine, a script +that unloads the wireless broadband driver when the interface goes down (I +think this modem has buggy firmware). Then, there are the existing scripts +shipped in the distribution (e.g. to reload squid). + +In the NetworkManager world, are all of these taken care of? If not, and I +have to script them myself, now I guess I have to hook in to NM via dbus? + +Regards, +Buchan +</PRE> + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="007453.html">[Mageia-dev] Proposal: Deprecate draknetcenter+network init scripts after systemd becomes default. +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="007484.html">[Mageia-dev] Proposal: Deprecate draknetcenter+network init scripts after systemd becomes default. +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#7481">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#7481">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#7481">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#7481">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> |