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+ <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1>
+ <B>Thomas Backlund</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF03C27.1080208%40iki.fi%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">tmb at iki.fi
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 00:00:55 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>Renaud MICHEL skrev 26.11.2010 23:43:
+&gt;<i> On vendredi 26 novembre 2010 at 21:29, Thomas Backlund wrote :
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> Then we come to the &quot;problematic&quot; part:
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> ------
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> x86_64
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> media
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> codecs (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> core (old main+contrib)
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> backports (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> backports_testing (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> release
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> testing (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> updates
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> extra (unmaintained, disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> firmware (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> games (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> non-free (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> /debug_*/ (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> -----
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> The idea of this layout with some of the separate sections (codecs,
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> firmware, games, non-free, debug_*) gives a mirror maintainer in a
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> country (or company) the option to exclude the parts they legally (or by
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> company policy) can not mirror.
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> The &quot;core&quot; should be only maintained free/libre stuff so it's easy to
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> build a free/libre iso
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> &quot;extra&quot; is for those packages that no-one really maintain, but is still
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> used by someone
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> &quot;games&quot; are now a separate repo since it can grow fast with a lot of
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> game data.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> I think it is a good layout, but, are updates/backports(testing) limited to
+</I>&gt;<i> core?
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+nope, the same layout:
+backports (disabled by default)
+backports_testing (disabled by default)
+release
+testing (disabled by default)
+updates
+
+should be under codecs, extra, firmware, games, non-free, debug_*
+in order to provide consistency betwen medias.
+I just left them out because they was supposed to be the same for all.
+
+&gt;<i> As you mentioned, extra has no reason to have updates or backports, because
+</I>&gt;<i> if someone did bother to make updates, then the package doesn't belong in
+</I>&gt;<i> extra.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+Yeah, but for a stable release, we dont move packages...
+
+the /release/ must stay frozen.
+
+&gt;<i> For games it would surely be appreciated to have new versions, so maybe a
+</I>&gt;<i> only a games/updates media which could also be used as a backport media (as
+</I>&gt;<i> games are not critical).
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+To simplify for all users, the medias should be used in the same way.
+
+&gt;<i> For non-free we would probably want also updates and backports, like in
+</I>&gt;<i> current mandriva.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+yep.
+
+&gt;<i> Now for firmware and codecs I don't know, are there updates for firmwares?
+</I>
+Not often, but sometimes there are firmwares that get bugfixes, so the
+same rule apply.
+
+&gt;<i> Maybe they should be in sync with kernel updates (or external modules)?
+</I>
+They must of course stay compatible with the kernel.
+
+&gt;<i> As for codecs, will it contain anything that could be covered by patents,
+</I>&gt;<i> like PLF for mandriva?
+</I>&gt;<i> Does that mean we will still have a stripped down mplayer/xine in core and a
+</I>&gt;<i> full version in codecs?
+</I>
+This is one of the tricky ones...
+
+&gt;<i> But if it is only disabled and you only need to activate it in the control
+</I>&gt;<i> center to have full featured multimedia programs, it is no big deal, and if
+</I>&gt;<i> it makes life easier for people whose countries have restrictive law then
+</I>&gt;<i> we should go for it.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+That was the idea.
+
+&gt;<i> We should probably have a clear rule to decide what cannot go in core and
+</I>&gt;<i> should in non-free (that on is pretty clear already) codecs or firmware.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+yep.
+
+&gt;<i> I hope we will soon get to the point where we will actually put packages in
+</I>&gt;<i> those repositories :-)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+we are getting closer...
+
+--
+Thomas
+</PRE>
+
+
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+ <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1>
+ <B>Maarten Vanraes</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C201011270002.54638.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 00:02:54 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>Op vrijdag 26 november 2010 22:43:31 schreef Renaud MICHEL:
+&gt;<i> On vendredi 26 novembre 2010 at 21:29, Thomas Backlund wrote :
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; Then we come to the &quot;problematic&quot; part:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; ------
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; x86_64
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; media
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; codecs (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; core (old main+contrib)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; backports (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; backports_testing (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; release
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; testing (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; updates
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; extra (unmaintained, disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; firmware (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; games (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; non-free (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; /debug_*/ (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; -----
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; The idea of this layout with some of the separate sections (codecs,
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; firmware, games, non-free, debug_*) gives a mirror maintainer in a
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; country (or company) the option to exclude the parts they legally (or by
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; company policy) can not mirror.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; The &quot;core&quot; should be only maintained free/libre stuff so it's easy to
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; build a free/libre iso
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &quot;extra&quot; is for those packages that no-one really maintain, but is still
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; used by someone
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &quot;games&quot; are now a separate repo since it can grow fast with a lot of
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; game data.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> I think it is a good layout, but, are updates/backports(testing) limited to
+</I>&gt;<i> core?
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> As you mentioned, extra has no reason to have updates or backports, because
+</I>&gt;<i> if someone did bother to make updates, then the package doesn't belong in
+</I>&gt;<i> extra.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> For games it would surely be appreciated to have new versions, so maybe a
+</I>&gt;<i> only a games/updates media which could also be used as a backport media (as
+</I>&gt;<i> games are not critical).
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> For non-free we would probably want also updates and backports, like in
+</I>&gt;<i> current mandriva.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Now for firmware and codecs I don't know, are there updates for firmwares?
+</I>&gt;<i> Maybe they should be in sync with kernel updates (or external modules)?
+</I>&gt;<i> As for codecs, will it contain anything that could be covered by patents,
+</I>&gt;<i> like PLF for mandriva?
+</I>&gt;<i> Does that mean we will still have a stripped down mplayer/xine in core and
+</I>&gt;<i> a full version in codecs?
+</I>&gt;<i> But if it is only disabled and you only need to activate it in the control
+</I>&gt;<i> center to have full featured multimedia programs, it is no big deal, and if
+</I>&gt;<i> it makes life easier for people whose countries have restrictive law then
+</I>&gt;<i> we should go for it.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> We should probably have a clear rule to decide what cannot go in core and
+</I>&gt;<i> should in non-free (that on is pretty clear already) codecs or firmware.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> I hope we will soon get to the point where we will actually put packages in
+</I>&gt;<i> those repositories :-)
+</I>
+A) i see no reason for codecs and firmware to be separate. However, i do
+understand that some people would not want to install firmware, but i think we
+should do this in another way, (like installing a meta package that enforces
+some limits.)
+codecs seem odd to be separate, if they have patented problems they should go
+in non_free, if no problem, they can go in core.
+
+B) if they are separate, they would need updates, backports, testing, ... (i
+expect non_free does too?)
+
+C) if they are separate, they cannot be disabled by default, some stuff is
+needed for stuff to work.
+
+D) i have questions about noarch packages, will they be installed on both
+trees? and if we have more archs later on, more and more? this seems a waste;
+except if we could hardlink them somehow. if not, we should just put them
+somewhere separate.
+
+E) i understand games to be separate, but disabled by default?, i'm not sure i
+agree with that. (we need to remember our target audience; stuff needs to work
+out-of the box)
+
+F) what is backports_testing? why can't that just be testing?
+</PRE>
+
+
+
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+ <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1>
+ <B>Renaud MICHEL</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C201011270034.15839.r.h.michel%2Bmageia%40gmail.com%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">r.h.michel+mageia at gmail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 00:34:15 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>On samedi 27 novembre 2010 at 00:02, Maarten Vanraes wrote :
+&gt;<i> C) if they are separate, they cannot be disabled by default, some stuff
+</I>&gt;<i> is needed for stuff to work.
+</I>
+I guess you are talking about firmware here.
+Maybe the installer could detect that a firmware is needed for some
+hardware, then it could either ask the user if he wants to enable the
+firmware repository, or automatically enable it.
+
+&gt;<i> D) i have questions about noarch packages, will they be installed on
+</I>&gt;<i> both trees? and if we have more archs later on, more and more? this
+</I>&gt;<i> seems a waste; except if we could hardlink them somehow. if not, we
+</I>&gt;<i> should just put them somewhere separate.
+</I>
+If the files are identical, they can be hard linked, and then the mirrors
+updates them with rsync -aH.
+(by the way, the readme already ask for those options
+<A HREF="http://distrib-coffee.ipsl.jussieu.fr/pub/linux/Mageia/mirror.readme">http://distrib-coffee.ipsl.jussieu.fr/pub/linux/Mageia/mirror.readme</A> )
+It is quite easy to make a script that will make those hard links &quot;&#224;
+posteriori&quot; (you only need to compare files with identical names)
+
+It could even be integrated into the build system (maybe it is already, I
+have no idea how it works), each time a noarch package is added to a
+repository it would check the corresponding repository for other arch if the
+same file is already present and is identical, and if so make a hard link
+instead of copying it.
+
+&gt;<i> E) i understand games to be separate, but disabled by default?, i'm not
+</I>&gt;<i> sure i agree with that. (we need to remember our target audience; stuff
+</I>&gt;<i> needs to work out-of the box)
+</I>
+This could also be decided at install time.
+If the user choose the game section then the games repository is enabled and
+some task-game-* are selected to install various games.
+
+&gt;<i> F) what is backports_testing? why can't that just be testing?
+</I>
+testing is for packages that will go to updates, backports_testing is for
+packages that will go to backports.
+I think it is likely that some people will be willing to test updates
+candidate but don't want to end up with backports, so enabling only testing
+and not backports_testing.
+
+If I remember correctly, there is currently (mdv2010.1 and previous) no
+testing stage for backported packages, and it was proposed during the
+discussion one month ago, that it would be good to have also a testing for
+backported packages.
+
+--
+Renaud Michel
+</PRE>
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
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+ <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1>
+ <B>Thomas Backlund</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF041DD.7010804%40iki.fi%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">tmb at iki.fi
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 00:25:17 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>Maarten Vanraes skrev 27.11.2010 01:02:
+&gt;<i> Op vrijdag 26 november 2010 22:43:31 schreef Renaud MICHEL:
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> On vendredi 26 novembre 2010 at 21:29, Thomas Backlund wrote :
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> Then we come to the &quot;problematic&quot; part:
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> ------
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> x86_64
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> media
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> codecs (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> core (old main+contrib)
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> backports (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> backports_testing (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> release
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> testing (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> updates
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> extra (unmaintained, disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> firmware (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> games (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> non-free (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> /debug_*/ (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> -----
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> The idea of this layout with some of the separate sections (codecs,
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> firmware, games, non-free, debug_*) gives a mirror maintainer in a
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> country (or company) the option to exclude the parts they legally (or by
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> company policy) can not mirror.
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> The &quot;core&quot; should be only maintained free/libre stuff so it's easy to
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> build a free/libre iso
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> &quot;extra&quot; is for those packages that no-one really maintain, but is still
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> used by someone
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> &quot;games&quot; are now a separate repo since it can grow fast with a lot of
+</I>&gt;&gt;&gt;<i> game data.
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>
+[...]
+
+&gt;<i> A) i see no reason for codecs and firmware to be separate. However, i do
+</I>&gt;<i> understand that some people would not want to install firmware, but i think we
+</I>&gt;<i> should do this in another way, (like installing a meta package that enforces
+</I>&gt;<i> some limits.)
+</I>&gt;<i> codecs seem odd to be separate, if they have patented problems they should go
+</I>&gt;<i> in non_free, if no problem, they can go in core.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+That is doable.
+The reason for having it separate was because its the most &quot;problematic&quot;
+one. (codecs have more issues than firmware)
+
+&gt;<i> B) if they are separate, they would need updates, backports, testing, ... (i
+</I>&gt;<i> expect non_free does too?)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+Yep.
+as noted in the other post, the layout under /core/ is duplicated under
+all other medias...
+
+&gt;<i> C) if they are separate, they cannot be disabled by default, some stuff is
+</I>&gt;<i> needed for stuff to work.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+So installer could ask &quot;in order to fully support your hw you need ...,
+do you want to enable firmware repo...&quot; and explain the reason for
+free/libre...
+
+&gt;<i> D) i have questions about noarch packages, will they be installed on both
+</I>&gt;<i> trees? and if we have more archs later on, more and more? this seems a waste;
+</I>&gt;<i> except if we could hardlink them somehow. if not, we should just put them
+</I>&gt;<i> somewhere separate.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+We hardlink them already.
+But yeah, I'd like a separate noarch too, but some people disagree, so I
+didnt add it to this proposal.
+
+&gt;<i> E) i understand games to be separate, but disabled by default?, i'm not sure i
+</I>&gt;<i> agree with that. (we need to remember our target audience; stuff needs to work
+</I>&gt;<i> out-of the box)
+</I>
+I was thinking of a feature in the installer, if you select games, it
+would enable the repo by default, otherwise keep it disabled.
+
+&gt;<i> F) what is backports_testing? why can't that just be testing?
+</I>
+Versioning problem... on mirrors / BS
+we have testing -&gt; updates route,
+so this would be backports_testing -&gt; backports,
+
+Because if you have this:
+core/release v 1.2.0-1
+core/testing v 1.3.0-1 (intended for backports)
+
+then you cant upload a bugfix v 1.2.0-1.1 to core/testing as there is
+already a bigger version in testing...
+
+--
+Thomas
+
+
+</PRE>
+
+
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+ <B>Maarten Vanraes</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C201011270044.29973.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 00:44:29 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>Op zaterdag 27 november 2010 00:25:17 schreef Thomas Backlund:
+[...]
+&gt;<i> &gt; A) i see no reason for codecs and firmware to be separate. However, i do
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; understand that some people would not want to install firmware, but i
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; think we should do this in another way, (like installing a meta package
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; that enforces some limits.)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; codecs seem odd to be separate, if they have patented problems they
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; should go in non_free, if no problem, they can go in core.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> That is doable.
+</I>&gt;<i> The reason for having it separate was because its the most &quot;problematic&quot;
+</I>&gt;<i> one. (codecs have more issues than firmware)
+</I>
+What i meant here, is why is firmware separate from core? why is codecs
+separate from core?
+
+imo, i would put firmware and codecs in either core or non_free.
+
+&gt;<i> &gt; B) if they are separate, they would need updates, backports, testing, ...
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; (i expect non_free does too?)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Yep.
+</I>&gt;<i> as noted in the other post, the layout under /core/ is duplicated under
+</I>&gt;<i> all other medias...
+</I>
+yeah, I only read your other post after writing this.
+
+&gt;<i> &gt; C) if they are separate, they cannot be disabled by default, some stuff
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; is needed for stuff to work.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> So installer could ask &quot;in order to fully support your hw you need ...,
+</I>&gt;<i> do you want to enable firmware repo...&quot; and explain the reason for
+</I>&gt;<i> free/libre...
+</I>
+that sounds like a good idea, however; do we have the time to change this in
+the installer?
+
+&gt;<i> &gt; D) i have questions about noarch packages, will they be installed on both
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; trees? and if we have more archs later on, more and more? this seems a
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; waste; except if we could hardlink them somehow. if not, we should just
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; put them somewhere separate.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> We hardlink them already.
+</I>&gt;<i> But yeah, I'd like a separate noarch too, but some people disagree, so I
+</I>&gt;<i> didnt add it to this proposal.
+</I>
+well, especially when we get more archs, we really should separate noarchs;
+i'm kind of feeling strong about this.
+
+&gt;<i> &gt; E) i understand games to be separate, but disabled by default?, i'm not
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; sure i agree with that. (we need to remember our target audience; stuff
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; needs to work out-of the box)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> I was thinking of a feature in the installer, if you select games, it
+</I>&gt;<i> would enable the repo by default, otherwise keep it disabled.
+</I>
+same as with C) . do we have the time for this?
+
+&gt;<i> &gt; F) what is backports_testing? why can't that just be testing?
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Versioning problem... on mirrors / BS
+</I>&gt;<i> we have testing -&gt; updates route,
+</I>&gt;<i> so this would be backports_testing -&gt; backports,
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Because if you have this:
+</I>&gt;<i> core/release v 1.2.0-1
+</I>&gt;<i> core/testing v 1.3.0-1 (intended for backports)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> then you cant upload a bugfix v 1.2.0-1.1 to core/testing as there is
+</I>&gt;<i> already a bigger version in testing...
+</I>
+aah, makes sense.
+
+PS: i like the extra btw: (which should contain all unmaintained packages that
+actually build)
+</PRE>
+
+
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+ <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1>
+ <B>Romain d'Alverny</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTinoaZZBZZq_YtMMbgqDJ94DPnCBm9K0ZGKtfGjG%40mail.gmail.com%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">rdalverny at gmail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 00:51:59 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 00:44, Maarten Vanraes
+&lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com</A>&gt; wrote:
+&gt;<i> Op zaterdag 27 november 2010 00:25:17 schreef Thomas Backlund:
+</I>&gt;<i> [...]
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> &gt; A) i see no reason for codecs and firmware to be separate. However, i do
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> &gt; understand that some people would not want to install firmware, but i
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> &gt; think we should do this in another way, (like installing a meta package
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> &gt; that enforces some limits.)
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> &gt; codecs seem odd to be separate, if they have patented problems they
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> &gt; should go in non_free, if no problem, they can go in core.
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> That is doable.
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> The reason for having it separate was because its the most &quot;problematic&quot;
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> one. (codecs have more issues than firmware)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> What i meant here, is why is firmware separate from core? why is codecs
+</I>&gt;<i> separate from core?
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> imo, i would put firmware and codecs in either core or non_free.
+</I>
+I guess we should separate concerns?
+ - non_free as in &quot;not (really) free software&quot; (source code may be
+available, but license, redistribution conditions, etc.)
+ - problematic stuff as in &quot;binary closed thing&quot; (most firmware, but
+not only eventually)
+ - problematic stuff as in &quot;(likely) patented&quot; (some codecs)
+
+so that we don't mix issues when one has to decide what to mirror/use or not.
+
+
+Romain
+</PRE>
+
+
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+ <B>Maarten Vanraes</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C201011270059.50412.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 00:59:50 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>Op zaterdag 27 november 2010 00:51:59 schreef Romain d'Alverny:
+&gt;<i> On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 00:44, Maarten Vanraes
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com</A>&gt; wrote:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; Op zaterdag 27 november 2010 00:25:17 schreef Thomas Backlund:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; [...]
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; &gt; A) i see no reason for codecs and firmware to be separate. However, i
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; &gt; do understand that some people would not want to install firmware,
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; &gt; but i think we should do this in another way, (like installing a meta
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; &gt; package that enforces some limits.)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; &gt; codecs seem odd to be separate, if they have patented problems they
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; &gt; should go in non_free, if no problem, they can go in core.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; That is doable.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; The reason for having it separate was because its the most &quot;problematic&quot;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; one. (codecs have more issues than firmware)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; What i meant here, is why is firmware separate from core? why is codecs
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; separate from core?
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; imo, i would put firmware and codecs in either core or non_free.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> I guess we should separate concerns?
+</I>&gt;<i> - non_free as in &quot;not (really) free software&quot; (source code may be
+</I>&gt;<i> available, but license, redistribution conditions, etc.)
+</I>&gt;<i> - problematic stuff as in &quot;binary closed thing&quot; (most firmware, but
+</I>&gt;<i> not only eventually)
+</I>&gt;<i> - problematic stuff as in &quot;(likely) patented&quot; (some codecs)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> so that we don't mix issues when one has to decide what to mirror/use or
+</I>&gt;<i> not.
+</I>
+you know what?
+
+how about having a &quot;possibly_patented&quot; and disable it by default; but have
+them all in there. because there are countries where most of those are
+allowed. (i suspect they aren't necessarily codecs)
+
+how about having a &quot;binary_only&quot; repository? (i suspect they aren't all
+firmwares?) or they could just be in non_free; because that's what they are...
+
+</PRE>
+
+
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+ <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1>
+ <B>Maarten Vanraes</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C201011270102.54908.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 01:02:54 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>Op zaterdag 27 november 2010 00:51:59 schreef Romain d'Alverny:
+&gt;<i> On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 00:44, Maarten Vanraes
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com</A>&gt; wrote:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; Op zaterdag 27 november 2010 00:25:17 schreef Thomas Backlund:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; [...]
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; &gt; A) i see no reason for codecs and firmware to be separate. However, i
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; &gt; do understand that some people would not want to install firmware,
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; &gt; but i think we should do this in another way, (like installing a meta
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; &gt; package that enforces some limits.)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; &gt; codecs seem odd to be separate, if they have patented problems they
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; &gt; should go in non_free, if no problem, they can go in core.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; That is doable.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; The reason for having it separate was because its the most &quot;problematic&quot;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; one. (codecs have more issues than firmware)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; What i meant here, is why is firmware separate from core? why is codecs
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; separate from core?
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; imo, i would put firmware and codecs in either core or non_free.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> I guess we should separate concerns?
+</I>&gt;<i> - non_free as in &quot;not (really) free software&quot; (source code may be
+</I>&gt;<i> available, but license, redistribution conditions, etc.)
+</I>&gt;<i> - problematic stuff as in &quot;binary closed thing&quot; (most firmware, but
+</I>&gt;<i> not only eventually)
+</I>&gt;<i> - problematic stuff as in &quot;(likely) patented&quot; (some codecs)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> so that we don't mix issues when one has to decide what to mirror/use or
+</I>&gt;<i> not.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Romain
+</I>
+imo, non_free should contain software that's allowed to be redistributed but:
+ - has conditions
+ - has no redistributable source
+ - has restrictions
+ - etc...
+</PRE>
+
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+ <B>Andrey Borzenkov</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTimJ%2BfzBCVAFFMnOEf2c%2BOkuwW9im9_-%3D-RYgpzW%40mail.gmail.com%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">arvidjaar at gmail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 07:27:12 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 11:29 PM, Thomas Backlund &lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">tmb at iki.fi</A>&gt; wrote:
+&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> The idea of this layout with some of the separate sections (codecs,
+</I>&gt;<i> firmware, games, non-free, debug_*) gives a mirror maintainer in a country
+</I>&gt;<i> (or company) the option to exclude the parts they legally (or by company
+</I>&gt;<i> policy) can not mirror.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+I wonder how &quot;urpmi.addmedia --distrib
+<A HREF="ftp://server/with/omitted/sections">ftp://server/with/omitted/sections</A>&quot; should be interpreted then.
+
+Also mirror list should be indicating which sections are present; is
+it supported right now?
+</PRE>
+
+
+
+
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+ <B>Wolfgang Bornath</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTi%3DWs3pO%2BpCoouLddpT4%2Bzb%2B3_v1t9kodQDxDOi%3D%40mail.gmail.com%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">molch.b at googlemail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 07:55:40 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>2010/11/27 Andrey Borzenkov &lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">arvidjaar at gmail.com</A>&gt;:
+&gt;<i> On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 11:29 PM, Thomas Backlund &lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">tmb at iki.fi</A>&gt; wrote:
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> The idea of this layout with some of the separate sections (codecs,
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> firmware, games, non-free, debug_*) gives a mirror maintainer in a country
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> (or company) the option to exclude the parts they legally (or by company
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> policy) can not mirror.
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> I wonder how &quot;urpmi.addmedia --distrib
+</I>&gt;<i> <A HREF="ftp://server/with/omitted/sections">ftp://server/with/omitted/sections</A>&quot; should be interpreted then.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Also mirror list should be indicating which sections are present; is
+</I>&gt;<i> it supported right now?
+</I>
+And that will make the &quot;$MIRRORLIST&quot; approach problematic. Say I am
+living in a country which has no patent restrictions but no mirror
+either. Then the addmedia function will search a mirror in my
+neighborhood and selects the next mirror which may be such a mirror
+where the maintainer excluded the parts with patented software. Say I
+am a new user who does not know about the option to manually select a
+mirror and who does not know that such mirrors with missing branches
+do exist. I must come to the conclusion that Mageia does not
+distribute any patented software at all.
+
+This can only be avoided on user level by asking the user first if he
+wants patented software or not (including a text which explains the
+problem). Then if he wants to have patented software he could be
+connected to a mirror with the &quot;patented software flag&quot;, if not he
+will be connected with a mirror which does not have the &quot;patented
+software flag&quot;.
+
+The other option may be that we do not allow mirrors without the
+&quot;patented&quot; branch in the official mirrorlist. This would probably mean
+no official mirrors in those countries with &quot;patent problems&quot; but
+people there can still use other &quot;off shore&quot; mirrors.
+
+--
+wobo
+</PRE>
+
+
+
+
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+ <B>Ahmad Samir</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTi%3DeM%3D1HHb31G-Wx9q7gCctSwtKTDbrXdJhtgx-z%40mail.gmail.com%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">ahmadsamir3891 at gmail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 08:00:50 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>On 27 November 2010 08:27, Andrey Borzenkov &lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">arvidjaar at gmail.com</A>&gt; wrote:
+&gt;<i> On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 11:29 PM, Thomas Backlund &lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">tmb at iki.fi</A>&gt; wrote:
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> The idea of this layout with some of the separate sections (codecs,
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> firmware, games, non-free, debug_*) gives a mirror maintainer in a country
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> (or company) the option to exclude the parts they legally (or by company
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> policy) can not mirror.
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> I wonder how &quot;urpmi.addmedia --distrib
+</I>&gt;<i> <A HREF="ftp://server/with/omitted/sections">ftp://server/with/omitted/sections</A>&quot; should be interpreted then.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Also mirror list should be indicating which sections are present; is
+</I>&gt;<i> it supported right now?
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+IMHO, the mirrorlist in its current status should be dropped
+altogether... it's only good if the user has good mirrors near where
+he lives, otherwise it just fails miserably. The whole point of using
+a mirrorlist was that &quot;urpmi will switch to another mirror if the
+currently used one fails / can't be reached&quot;, that switch doesn't
+happen, (&quot;md5sum mismatch&quot; rings a bell?).
+
+At least with the specific media mirrors the user can, more easily,
+guess that he can use add another mirror, with mirrorlist most new
+users are left clueless.
+
+--
+Ahmad Samir
+</PRE>
+
+
+
+
+
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+ <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1>
+ <B>Wolfgang Bornath</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTikw9YeKD4E_dR6-arqj%3DL7eB0HKtwqP8nYRcMVr%40mail.gmail.com%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">molch.b at googlemail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 09:03:06 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>2010/11/27 Ahmad Samir &lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">ahmadsamir3891 at gmail.com</A>&gt;:
+&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> IMHO, the mirrorlist in its current status should be dropped
+</I>&gt;<i> altogether... it's only good if the user has good mirrors near where
+</I>&gt;<i> he lives, otherwise it just fails miserably. The whole point of using
+</I>&gt;<i> a mirrorlist was that &quot;urpmi will switch to another mirror if the
+</I>&gt;<i> currently used one fails / can't be reached&quot;, that switch doesn't
+</I>&gt;<i> happen, (&quot;md5sum mismatch&quot; rings a bell?).
+</I>
+Although I am a friend of SmartUrpmi and EasyUrpmi I do understand the
+easy way the mirrorlist system provides, especially for new users. The
+failure of this system due to failing mirrors was already discussed at
+Mandriva and there is a bug in MDv bugzilla about it - still open.
+
+But even if this bug could be fixed, the option for mirror maintainers
+to exclude parts of the official mirror structure puts the mirrorlist
+system in jeopardy, unless we have 2 mirrorlists, one with and one
+without &quot;problematic&quot; software and let the user select one or the
+other before he sets up his media.
+
+--
+wobo
+</PRE>
+
+
+
+
+
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+ <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1>
+ <B>Michael scherer</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C20101127084353.GD15726%40sisay.ephaone.org%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">misc at zarb.org
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 09:43:54 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 10:29:14PM +0200, Thomas Backlund wrote:
+&gt;<i> Hi,
+</I>&gt;<i> As we are getting closer to actually have something to mirror it's
+</I>&gt;<i> time to get this decided.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> And the deadline for theese discussions is December 5th, 2010 in
+</I>&gt;<i> order to get a decision on the board meeting on December 6th, 2010.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Now this is a somewhat problematic topic but needs to be decided.
+</I>&gt;<i> This has already been discussed in two threads:
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> First off we have the &quot;basic) part:
+</I>&gt;<i> &quot;Mirror tree structure&quot; by Olivier Thauvin
+</I>&gt;<i> <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/pipermail/mageia-dev/20101020/001286.html">https://www.mageia.org/pipermail/mageia-dev/20101020/001286.html</A>
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> And the other part (that gives some problems):
+</I>&gt;<i> &quot;Mageia repository sections, licenses, restrictions, firmware etc&quot;
+</I>&gt;<i> by Anssi Hannula.
+</I>&gt;<i> <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/pipermail/mageia-dev/20101012/001084.html">https://www.mageia.org/pipermail/mageia-dev/20101012/001084.html</A>
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Now, in order to get somewhere, here is a suggestion that tries to
+</I>&gt;<i> find a middle ground or base for discussions...
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Now this toplevel part seems to be ok by everyone:
+</I>&gt;<i> ------
+</I>&gt;<i> Mageia/
+</I>&gt;<i> /distrib/
+</I>&gt;<i> /cauldron/
+</I>&gt;<i> /stable1/
+</I>&gt;<i> /iso/
+</I>&gt;<i> /cauldron/
+</I>&gt;<i> /i586/
+</I>&gt;<i> /srpms/
+</I>&gt;<i> /x86_64/
+</I>&gt;<i> /stable1/
+</I>&gt;<i> /people/
+</I>&gt;<i> /software/
+</I>&gt;<i> ------
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Then we come to the &quot;problematic&quot; part:
+</I>
+This part look really too complex to me.
+
+&gt;<i> ------
+</I>&gt;<i> /x86_64/
+</I>&gt;<i> /media/
+</I>&gt;<i> /codecs/ (disabled by default)
+</I>
+so, ogg, webm, being codec, should go there or not ?
+What about patents problem about something else than codec ?
+( freetype, image such as gif, DRM stuff )
+
+&gt;<i> /core/ (old main+contrib)
+</I>&gt;<i> /backports/ (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;<i> /backports_testing/ (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;<i> /release/
+</I>&gt;<i> /testing/ (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;<i> /updates/
+</I>&gt;<i> /extra/ (unmaintained, disabled by default)
+</I>
+If used by people, then why no one step to maintain anything ?
+If someone take the maintainace, does it mean that we will move the package ?
+
+&gt;<i> /firmware/ (disabled by default)
+</I>
+Why separate firmware from non_free ? What does it bring ?
+Since both of them are disabled by default, they can be simply merged.
+
+&gt;<i> /games/ (disabled by default)
+</I>
+That's a simplification that make no sense.
+Not all games are big, not all big packages are games ( tetex, openoffice ).
+
+This only bring complexity on our side, complexity on mirror side, and
+bring few improvement to users. A rather more precise label would be to have
+/contents/ repository, as this is not the game that take space, but the content.
+
+And a explicit policy of splitting content from big packages, with a explicit size or
+expected size for limit ( like if the package is more than 100 mo ). That's also a media
+where deltarpm would make sense, or someting like that. In the mean time this would
+only bring complexity to everybody else.
+
+&gt;<i> /non-free/ (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;<i> /debug_*/ (disabled by default)
+</I>
+
+And what are the relation of requirements ?
+Ie, what can requires non_free, codecs, games, etc ?
+
+And what about something that can goes in both media, ie a non_free
+game goes where ? A unmaintained codecs goes where ?
+--
+Michael Scherer
+</PRE>
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+ <B>Michael scherer</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C20101127085002.GE15726%40sisay.ephaone.org%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">misc at zarb.org
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 09:50:02 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 12:02:54AM +0100, Maarten Vanraes wrote:
+&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> A) i see no reason for codecs and firmware to be separate. However, i do
+</I>&gt;<i> understand that some people would not want to install firmware, but i think we
+</I>&gt;<i> should do this in another way, (like installing a meta package that enforces
+</I>&gt;<i> some limits.)
+</I>&gt;<i> codecs seem odd to be separate, if they have patented problems they should go
+</I>&gt;<i> in non_free, if no problem, they can go in core.
+</I>
+No. Read again the PLF web site 10 times. A codec ( or anything else ) can be
+patented and still be under a free license.
+Another real question is &quot;how do we decide a patent is gonna cause trouble&quot;.
+
+&gt;<i> C) if they are separate, they cannot be disabled by default, some stuff is
+</I>&gt;<i> needed for stuff to work.
+</I>
+If someone install something, then he need it to use it to do some some work, so
+this would mean than anything need to be enabled by default if we start this
+line of reasoning...
+
+&gt;<i> F) what is backports_testing? why can't that just be testing?
+</I>
+Because they may requires deps in backports ?
+
+--
+Michael Scherer
+</PRE>
+
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+ <B>Michael scherer</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C20101127090353.GF15726%40sisay.ephaone.org%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">misc at zarb.org
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 10:03:53 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 12:51:59AM +0100, Romain d'Alverny wrote:
+&gt;<i> On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 00:44, Maarten Vanraes
+</I>&gt;<i> &lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com</A>&gt; wrote:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; Op zaterdag 27 november 2010 00:25:17 schreef Thomas Backlund:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; [...]
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; &gt; A) i see no reason for codecs and firmware to be separate. However, i do
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; &gt; understand that some people would not want to install firmware, but i
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; &gt; think we should do this in another way, (like installing a meta package
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; &gt; that enforces some limits.)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; &gt; codecs seem odd to be separate, if they have patented problems they
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; &gt; should go in non_free, if no problem, they can go in core.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; That is doable.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; The reason for having it separate was because its the most &quot;problematic&quot;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; one. (codecs have more issues than firmware)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; What i meant here, is why is firmware separate from core? why is codecs
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; separate from core?
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; imo, i would put firmware and codecs in either core or non_free.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> I guess we should separate concerns?
+</I>&gt;<i> - non_free as in &quot;not (really) free software&quot; (source code may be
+</I>&gt;<i> available, but license, redistribution conditions, etc.)
+</I>&gt;<i> - problematic stuff as in &quot;binary closed thing&quot; (most firmware, but
+</I>&gt;<i> not only eventually)
+</I>
+Well, &quot;binary closed thing&quot; mean &quot;source code may be available, but not for anybody
+outside the company&quot;. It look like a lot like &quot;source code may be
+available, but license, redistribution conditions&quot; , with redistribution conditions
+mean &quot;no unless you are the shareholder board&quot; .
+So they are the same thing, ie non_free.
+
+&gt;<i> - problematic stuff as in &quot;(likely) patented&quot; (some codecs)
+</I>
+Patented and likely enforced. There is some patents on WebM, since google bought
+ON2, but they gave a patent promise. The same could go for invalid patents, where there
+is clear prior art, like <A HREF="http://jan.wildeboer.net/2010/11/patent-madness-by-tandberg/">http://jan.wildeboer.net/2010/11/patent-madness-by-tandberg/</A> .
+
+We could also speak of Java, and the claims from Oracle (
+<A HREF="http://www.betanews.com/article/This-is-big-Oracle-claims-Android-violates-its-Java-patents-sues-Google/1281675545">http://www.betanews.com/article/This-is-big-Oracle-claims-Android-violates-its-Java-patents-sues-Google/1281675545</A> ),
+which would be quite broad, <A HREF="http://www.google.com/patents?id=dyQGAAAAEBAJ">http://www.google.com/patents?id=dyQGAAAAEBAJ</A> for example seems either invalid, or very similar
+to selinux and traditional unix permissions, the sae goes for <A HREF="http://www.google.com/patents?id=G1YGAAAAEBAJ">http://www.google.com/patents?id=G1YGAAAAEBAJ</A> .
+
+So codecs definitly doesn't sound like the proper name if we may end putting the whole java stack there.
+( since there is patents, and since they are clearly enforced, and since openjdk is free software (=&gt; ! non_free ) ).
+
+--
+Michael Scherer
+</PRE>
+
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+ <B>Michael scherer</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C20101127091336.GG15726%40sisay.ephaone.org%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">misc at zarb.org
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 10:13:36 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 09:00:50AM +0200, Ahmad Samir wrote:
+&gt;<i> On 27 November 2010 08:27, Andrey Borzenkov &lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">arvidjaar at gmail.com</A>&gt; wrote:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 11:29 PM, Thomas Backlund &lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">tmb at iki.fi</A>&gt; wrote:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; The idea of this layout with some of the separate sections (codecs,
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; firmware, games, non-free, debug_*) gives a mirror maintainer in a country
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; (or company) the option to exclude the parts they legally (or by company
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; policy) can not mirror.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; I wonder how &quot;urpmi.addmedia --distrib
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; <A HREF="ftp://server/with/omitted/sections">ftp://server/with/omitted/sections</A>&quot; should be interpreted then.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; Also mirror list should be indicating which sections are present; is
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; it supported right now?
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> IMHO, the mirrorlist in its current status should be dropped
+</I>&gt;<i> altogether... it's only good if the user has good mirrors near where
+</I>&gt;<i> he lives, otherwise it just fails miserably. The whole point of using
+</I>&gt;<i> a mirrorlist was that &quot;urpmi will switch to another mirror if the
+</I>&gt;<i> currently used one fails / can't be reached&quot;, that switch doesn't
+</I>&gt;<i> happen, (&quot;md5sum mismatch&quot; rings a bell?).
+</I>
+In fact, md5 mismatch happen when the md5sum come from one mirror, and the hdlist
+from another one. This part of the urpmi code is too complex, and I didn't
+understood exactly the way it should work ( I mean, we could
+have a method &quot;download&quot; that does the right thing, switch to another mirror, etc, but
+it seems much more complex and therefor hard to fix ).
+
+&gt;<i> At least with the specific media mirrors the user can, more easily,
+</I>&gt;<i> guess that he can use add another mirror, with mirrorlist most new
+</I>&gt;<i> users are left clueless.
+</I>
+IMHO, that's a bug that must be fixed. I have already attempted, but
+without any luck. And shall I also remind that this was asked by users ( ie
+most non new users have no trouble with a single mirror ).
+So if we remove, some users will ask us again to have it...
+--
+Michael Scherer
+</PRE>
+
+
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+ <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1>
+ <B>Ahmad Samir</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTinUHMY9YJUOPg_-AHp6_nfMSnf%3DAHCa5294bVD7%40mail.gmail.com%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">ahmadsamir3891 at gmail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 10:41:28 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>On 27 November 2010 11:13, Michael scherer &lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">misc at zarb.org</A>&gt; wrote:
+&gt;<i> On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 09:00:50AM +0200, Ahmad Samir wrote:
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> On 27 November 2010 08:27, Andrey Borzenkov &lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">arvidjaar at gmail.com</A>&gt; wrote:
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> &gt; On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 11:29 PM, Thomas Backlund &lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">tmb at iki.fi</A>&gt; wrote:
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> &gt;&gt;
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; The idea of this layout with some of the separate sections (codecs,
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; firmware, games, non-free, debug_*) gives a mirror maintainer in a country
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; (or company) the option to exclude the parts they legally (or by company
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; policy) can not mirror.
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> &gt;&gt;
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> &gt; I wonder how &quot;urpmi.addmedia --distrib
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> &gt; <A HREF="ftp://server/with/omitted/sections">ftp://server/with/omitted/sections</A>&quot; should be interpreted then.
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> &gt; Also mirror list should be indicating which sections are present; is
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> &gt; it supported right now?
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> IMHO, the mirrorlist in its current status should be dropped
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> altogether... it's only good if the user has good mirrors near where
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> he lives, otherwise it just fails miserably. The whole point of using
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> a mirrorlist was that &quot;urpmi will switch to another mirror if the
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> currently used one fails / can't be reached&quot;, that switch doesn't
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> happen, (&quot;md5sum mismatch&quot; rings a bell?).
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> In fact, md5 mismatch happen when the md5sum come from one mirror, and the hdlist
+</I>&gt;<i> from another one. This part of the urpmi code is too complex, and I didn't
+</I>&gt;<i> understood exactly the way it should work ( I mean, we could
+</I>&gt;<i> have a method &quot;download&quot; that does the right thing, switch to another mirror, etc, but
+</I>&gt;<i> it seems much more complex and therefor hard to fix ).
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> At least with the specific media mirrors the user can, more easily,
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> guess that he can use add another mirror, with mirrorlist most new
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> users are left clueless.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> IMHO, that's a bug that must be fixed. I have already attempted, but
+</I>&gt;<i> without any luck. And shall I also remind that this was asked by users ( ie
+</I>&gt;<i> most non new users have no trouble with a single mirror ).
+</I>&gt;<i> So if we remove, some users will ask us again to have it...
+</I>&gt;<i> --
+</I>&gt;<i> Michael Scherer
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+The mirrorlist is a good method, _if/when_ it works. As it stands it
+doesn't work except if the user has a good mirror near him that urpmi
+will select; otherwise the user has to select a mirror manually, not
+so nice for new users as they just click &quot;Add&quot; in drakrpm-edit-media.
+
+A search in bugzilla and the mdv forum will reveal that a lot of users
+got hit by that issue and are still getting hit by it....
+
+--
+Ahmad Samir
+</PRE>
+
+
+
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+ <B>andre999</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF0E0B4.8090301%40laposte.net%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">andr55 at laposte.net
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 11:43:00 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>Ahmad Samir a &#233;crit :
+&gt;<i> IMHO, the mirrorlist in its current status should be dropped
+</I>&gt;<i> altogether... it's only good if the user has good mirrors near where
+</I>&gt;<i> he lives, otherwise it just fails miserably. The whole point of using
+</I>&gt;<i> a mirrorlist was that &quot;urpmi will switch to another mirror if the
+</I>&gt;<i> currently used one fails / can't be reached&quot;, that switch doesn't
+</I>&gt;<i> happen, (&quot;md5sum mismatch&quot; rings a bell?).
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>I see that a lot.
+
+&gt;<i> At least with the specific media mirrors the user can, more easily,
+</I>&gt;<i> guess that he can use add another mirror, with mirrorlist most new
+</I>&gt;<i> users are left clueless.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+I agree. The mirrorlist always connects me to a flaky mirror because it
+is geographically the closest, whereas there are several very good
+mirrors not much further away.
+(Always up to date, and much faster)
+A system to select mirrors like sourceforge would be much better. I
+would just have to set it once to one of the good mirrors.
+
+- Andr&#233;
+</PRE>
+
+
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+ <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1>
+ <B>Maarten Vanraes</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C201011271347.03086.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 13:47:03 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>Op zaterdag 27 november 2010 10:03:53 schreef Michael scherer:
+&gt;<i> On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 12:51:59AM +0100, Romain d'Alverny wrote:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 00:44, Maarten Vanraes
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com</A>&gt; wrote:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt; Op zaterdag 27 november 2010 00:25:17 schreef Thomas Backlund:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt; [...]
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; A) i see no reason for codecs and firmware to be separate. However,
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; i do understand that some people would not want to install
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; firmware, but i think we should do this in another way, (like
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; installing a meta package that enforces some limits.)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; codecs seem odd to be separate, if they have patented problems they
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; should go in non_free, if no problem, they can go in core.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt;&gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt;&gt; That is doable.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt;&gt; The reason for having it separate was because its the most
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;problematic&quot; one. (codecs have more issues than firmware)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt; What i meant here, is why is firmware separate from core? why is codecs
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt; separate from core?
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt; imo, i would put firmware and codecs in either core or non_free.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; I guess we should separate concerns?
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; - non_free as in &quot;not (really) free software&quot; (source code may be
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; available, but license, redistribution conditions, etc.)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; - problematic stuff as in &quot;binary closed thing&quot; (most firmware, but
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; not only eventually)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Well, &quot;binary closed thing&quot; mean &quot;source code may be available, but not for
+</I>&gt;<i> anybody outside the company&quot;. It look like a lot like &quot;source code may be
+</I>&gt;<i> available, but license, redistribution conditions&quot; , with redistribution
+</I>&gt;<i> conditions mean &quot;no unless you are the shareholder board&quot; .
+</I>&gt;<i> So they are the same thing, ie non_free.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; - problematic stuff as in &quot;(likely) patented&quot; (some codecs)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Patented and likely enforced. There is some patents on WebM, since google
+</I>&gt;<i> bought ON2, but they gave a patent promise. The same could go for invalid
+</I>&gt;<i> patents, where there is clear prior art, like
+</I>&gt;<i> <A HREF="http://jan.wildeboer.net/2010/11/patent-madness-by-tandberg/">http://jan.wildeboer.net/2010/11/patent-madness-by-tandberg/</A> .
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> We could also speak of Java, and the claims from Oracle (
+</I>&gt;<i> <A HREF="http://www.betanews.com/article/This-is-big-Oracle-claims-Android-violates-">http://www.betanews.com/article/This-is-big-Oracle-claims-Android-violates-</A>
+</I>&gt;<i> its-Java-patents-sues-Google/1281675545 ), which would be quite broad,
+</I>&gt;<i> <A HREF="http://www.google.com/patents?id=dyQGAAAAEBAJ">http://www.google.com/patents?id=dyQGAAAAEBAJ</A> for example seems either
+</I>&gt;<i> invalid, or very similar to selinux and traditional unix permissions, the
+</I>&gt;<i> sae goes for <A HREF="http://www.google.com/patents?id=G1YGAAAAEBAJ">http://www.google.com/patents?id=G1YGAAAAEBAJ</A> .
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> So codecs definitly doesn't sound like the proper name if we may end
+</I>&gt;<i> putting the whole java stack there. ( since there is patents, and since
+</I>&gt;<i> they are clearly enforced, and since openjdk is free software (=&gt; !
+</I>&gt;<i> non_free ) ).
+</I>
+
+so, you're agreeing with me then. there is no need for codecs or firmware
+repositories?
+</PRE>
+
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+ <B>Maarten Vanraes</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C201011271401.06087.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 14:01:06 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>Op zaterdag 27 november 2010 09:43:54 schreef Michael scherer:
+&gt;<i> On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 10:29:14PM +0200, Thomas Backlund wrote:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; Hi,
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; As we are getting closer to actually have something to mirror it's
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; time to get this decided.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; And the deadline for theese discussions is December 5th, 2010 in
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; order to get a decision on the board meeting on December 6th, 2010.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; Now this is a somewhat problematic topic but needs to be decided.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; This has already been discussed in two threads:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; First off we have the &quot;basic) part:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &quot;Mirror tree structure&quot; by Olivier Thauvin
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/pipermail/mageia-dev/20101020/001286.html">https://www.mageia.org/pipermail/mageia-dev/20101020/001286.html</A>
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; And the other part (that gives some problems):
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &quot;Mageia repository sections, licenses, restrictions, firmware etc&quot;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; by Anssi Hannula.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/pipermail/mageia-dev/20101012/001084.html">https://www.mageia.org/pipermail/mageia-dev/20101012/001084.html</A>
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; Now, in order to get somewhere, here is a suggestion that tries to
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; find a middle ground or base for discussions...
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; Now this toplevel part seems to be ok by everyone:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; ------
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; Mageia/
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; /distrib/
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; /cauldron/
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; /stable1/
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; /iso/
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; /cauldron/
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; /i586/
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; /srpms/
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; /x86_64/
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; /stable1/
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; /people/
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; /software/
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; ------
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; Then we come to the &quot;problematic&quot; part:
+</I>&gt;<i> This part look really too complex to me.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; ------
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; /x86_64/
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; /media/
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; /codecs/ (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> so, ogg, webm, being codec, should go there or not ?
+</I>&gt;<i> What about patents problem about something else than codec ?
+</I>&gt;<i> ( freetype, image such as gif, DRM stuff )
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; /core/ (old main+contrib)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; /backports/ (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; /backports_testing/ (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; /release/
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; /testing/ (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; /updates/
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; /extra/ (unmaintained, disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> If used by people, then why no one step to maintain anything ?
+</I>&gt;<i> If someone take the maintainace, does it mean that we will move the package
+</I>&gt;<i> ?
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; /firmware/ (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Why separate firmware from non_free ? What does it bring ?
+</I>&gt;<i> Since both of them are disabled by default, they can be simply merged.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; /games/ (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> That's a simplification that make no sense.
+</I>&gt;<i> Not all games are big, not all big packages are games ( tetex, openoffice
+</I>&gt;<i> ).
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> This only bring complexity on our side, complexity on mirror side, and
+</I>&gt;<i> bring few improvement to users. A rather more precise label would be to
+</I>&gt;<i> have /contents/ repository, as this is not the game that take space, but
+</I>&gt;<i> the content.
+</I>
+for this one, i don't really agree. I think it's purpose would be to have a
+repository that not all mirrors have to mirror (it's optional; and it'll
+probably be very big). call it whatever you will, it'll mostly contain big
+games. (imo, it could be like this: if this package would not be essential and
+more than X MB (200?; 250?) it could be in this repository, no matter if it's
+free or non_free; mirror maintainers can largely assume those to be non_free
+for mirrorring purposes) or even split those up.
+
+this is because some mirrors will not be able to mirror core when the big
+games are in core/non_free.
+
+&gt;<i> And a explicit policy of splitting content from big packages, with a
+</I>&gt;<i> explicit size or expected size for limit ( like if the package is more
+</I>&gt;<i> than 100 mo ). That's also a media where deltarpm would make sense, or
+</I>&gt;<i> someting like that. In the mean time this would only bring complexity to
+</I>&gt;<i> everybody else.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; /non-free/ (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; /debug_*/ (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> And what are the relation of requirements ?
+</I>&gt;<i> Ie, what can requires non_free, codecs, games, etc ?
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> And what about something that can goes in both media, ie a non_free
+</I>&gt;<i> game goes where ? A unmaintained codecs goes where ?
+</I>
+relations between them are important:
+
+mirrors should:
+ - always have core
+ - the rest is optional; but there should be a text file somewhere which tells
+us what repositories are in here.
+ - (bear in mind that i consider firmware and codecs non-existing)
+
+what also needs to happen is to have mirrorlist working better:
+
+if a mirror doesn't have some repositories, it should fetch the next one.
+also, some kind of timings could be interesting; a way of determining how long
+ago this mirror has been synced with primary mirror; ie: a way of determining
+a temporary stale mirror ==&gt; next mirror in the list.
+
+MD5SUM files should be forcably requested to not have a cached version; when i
+was working on urpmi-proxy, i noticed that there is a way to find out if a
+certain file has been modified.
+
+I'm willing to spend some time on urpmi for this stuff to work well.
+</PRE>
+
+
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+ <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1>
+ <B>Wolfgang Bornath</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTimXBjFaU7dSLSWrTMD222oknMB77z%3DXpp%2BK53ZV%40mail.gmail.com%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">molch.b at googlemail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 14:21:28 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>2010/11/27 Maarten Vanraes &lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com</A>&gt;:
+&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> if a mirror doesn't have some repositories, it should fetch the next one.
+</I>
+In this case there has to be some kind of selection dialogue on the
+user side to determine which repositories the user wants to set up. No
+need to let urpmi go to the next mirror if the user does not want
+Games (or codecs or any other &quot;non core&quot; branch).
+
+The more we differentiate the more komplex the whole thing becomes for
+all sides.
+</PRE>
+
+
+
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+ <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1>
+ <B>Jerome Quelin</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C20101127162034.GH14518%40mongueurs.net%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">jquelin at gmail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 17:20:34 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>On 10/11/26 22:29 +0200, Thomas Backlund wrote:
+&gt;<i> The &quot;core&quot; should be only maintained free/libre stuff so it's easy
+</I>&gt;<i> to build a free/libre iso
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &quot;extra&quot; is for those packages that no-one really maintain, but is
+</I>&gt;<i> still used by someone
+</I>
+i'm not sure &quot;extra&quot; is needed. either it compiles, and then it's
+shipped. or it doesn't, and then it's dropped.
+
+the less repositories we have, the easier it'll be.
+
+j&#233;r&#244;me
+--
+<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">jquelin at gmail.com</A>
+</PRE>
+
+
+
+
+
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+ <B>Maarten Vanraes</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C201011271757.59082.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 17:57:59 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>Op zaterdag 27 november 2010 14:21:28 schreef Wolfgang Bornath:
+&gt;<i> 2010/11/27 Maarten Vanraes &lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com</A>&gt;:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; if a mirror doesn't have some repositories, it should fetch the next one.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> In this case there has to be some kind of selection dialogue on the
+</I>&gt;<i> user side to determine which repositories the user wants to set up. No
+</I>&gt;<i> need to let urpmi go to the next mirror if the user does not want
+</I>&gt;<i> Games (or codecs or any other &quot;non core&quot; branch).
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> The more we differentiate the more komplex the whole thing becomes for
+</I>&gt;<i> all sides.
+</I>
+i mean, if a certain media is enabled, and that media isn't on the mirror
+you're using, mirrorlist should automagically choose the next one.
+</PRE>
+
+
+
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+ <B>Maarten Vanraes</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C201011271759.03526.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 17:59:03 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>Op zaterdag 27 november 2010 17:20:34 schreef Jerome Quelin:
+&gt;<i> On 10/11/26 22:29 +0200, Thomas Backlund wrote:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; The &quot;core&quot; should be only maintained free/libre stuff so it's easy
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; to build a free/libre iso
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &quot;extra&quot; is for those packages that no-one really maintain, but is
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; still used by someone
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> i'm not sure &quot;extra&quot; is needed. either it compiles, and then it's
+</I>&gt;<i> shipped. or it doesn't, and then it's dropped.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> the less repositories we have, the easier it'll be.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> j&#233;r&#244;me
+</I>
+i agree, the less repositories the easier it'll be.
+
+however, core is for all the &quot;maintained&quot; packages, extra is for the
+unmaintained packages that build ok.
+</PRE>
+
+
+
+
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+ <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1>
+ <B>Jerome Quelin</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C20101127171136.GI14518%40mongueurs.net%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">jquelin at gmail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 18:11:36 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>On 10/11/27 17:59 +0100, Maarten Vanraes wrote:
+&gt;<i> i agree, the less repositories the easier it'll be.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> however, core is for all the &quot;maintained&quot; packages, extra is for the
+</I>&gt;<i> unmaintained packages that build ok.
+</I>
+what is a &quot;maintained&quot; package? no maintainer, no commits since x
+months, not buildable? what if we move to packages being maintained by
+<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">foopkg at packages.mageia.org</A> aliases?
+
+what are the rules to move a package from extra to core, and vice-versa?
+who can do it? will it be done automatically? will this imply a rebuild
+for the package?
+
+what are the dependency rules? can a core package depend on an extra
+package? or with a buildrequires?
+
+and, more importantly: what is the advantage? that is, what does that
+bring you, except more admin?
+
+
+sorry, consider me not impressed by this idea. or maybe it's just that i
+failed to see the benefits. please enlighten me.
+
+j&#233;r&#244;me
+--
+<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">jquelin at gmail.com</A>
+</PRE>
+
+
+
+
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+ <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two</H1>
+ <B>Maarten Vanraes</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C201011271828.02218.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 18:28:02 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>Op zaterdag 27 november 2010 18:11:36 schreef Jerome Quelin:
+&gt;<i> On 10/11/27 17:59 +0100, Maarten Vanraes wrote:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; i agree, the less repositories the easier it'll be.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; however, core is for all the &quot;maintained&quot; packages, extra is for the
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; unmaintained packages that build ok.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> what is a &quot;maintained&quot; package? no maintainer, no commits since x
+</I>&gt;<i> months, not buildable? what if we move to packages being maintained by
+</I>&gt;<i> <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">foopkg at packages.mageia.org</A> aliases?
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> what are the rules to move a package from extra to core, and vice-versa?
+</I>&gt;<i> who can do it? will it be done automatically? will this imply a rebuild
+</I>&gt;<i> for the package?
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> what are the dependency rules? can a core package depend on an extra
+</I>&gt;<i> package? or with a buildrequires?
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> and, more importantly: what is the advantage? that is, what does that
+</I>&gt;<i> bring you, except more admin?
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> sorry, consider me not impressed by this idea. or maybe it's just that i
+</I>&gt;<i> failed to see the benefits. please enlighten me.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> j&#233;r&#244;me
+</I>
+
+you pose good questions.
+
+a maintained package is a package that has (at least one) maintainer. i would
+propose making the maintainer structure more efficient and not like mandriva; if
+someone stops being a maintainer, he (or someone else) should drop his
+package(s).
+
+some packages don't require much maintenance.
+
+I would say that extra is not essential for mirrors to have; so if it's a
+package that is essential, it's better to find someone who can maintain it. if
+not; we should drop it into extra (i would say, before cauldron freeze time)
+and all packages it depends on. IMHO.
+
+the advantage could be that mirrors don't need to mirror those packages.
+(extra will be like the unmaintained contrib from mdv) i foresee too that at
+least in the beginning, this 'll be bigger than core.
+
+which brings us to another advantage: the hdlists; those are huge enough as it
+is. and extra will very likely not be changed much.
+
+these are my thoughts.
+
+(PS: since imo only core is required, no core package can have any dependency
+on any other repository)
+</PRE>
+
+
+
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+ <B>Wolfgang Bornath</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTinNhHLnOjZM7wdCWF4F473rcXuXrKctMCQCaehY%40mail.gmail.com%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">molch.b at googlemail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 18:38:31 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>2010/11/27 Maarten Vanraes &lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com</A>&gt;:
+&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> i mean, if a certain media is enabled,
+</I>
+Yes, that's exactly what I meant with &quot;a mirror selection dialogue&quot;
+when the user wants to setup his media. Then, if one of media the user
+selects is not on the nearest mirror the system has to choose the next
+mirror and so forth until it hits a mirror which has these media the
+user wants.
+
+--
+wobo
+</PRE>
+
+
+
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+ <B>Thomas Backlund</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF14251.7060207%40iki.fi%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">tmb at iki.fi
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 18:39:29 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>Wolfgang Bornath skrev 27.11.2010 10:03:
+&gt;<i> 2010/11/27 Ahmad Samir&lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">ahmadsamir3891 at gmail.com</A>&gt;:
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> IMHO, the mirrorlist in its current status should be dropped
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> altogether... it's only good if the user has good mirrors near where
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> he lives, otherwise it just fails miserably. The whole point of using
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> a mirrorlist was that &quot;urpmi will switch to another mirror if the
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> currently used one fails / can't be reached&quot;, that switch doesn't
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> happen, (&quot;md5sum mismatch&quot; rings a bell?).
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Although I am a friend of SmartUrpmi and EasyUrpmi I do understand the
+</I>&gt;<i> easy way the mirrorlist system provides, especially for new users. The
+</I>&gt;<i> failure of this system due to failing mirrors was already discussed at
+</I>&gt;<i> Mandriva and there is a bug in MDv bugzilla about it - still open.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> But even if this bug could be fixed, the option for mirror maintainers
+</I>&gt;<i> to exclude parts of the official mirror structure puts the mirrorlist
+</I>&gt;<i> system in jeopardy, unless we have 2 mirrorlists, one with and one
+</I>&gt;<i> without &quot;problematic&quot; software and let the user select one or the
+</I>&gt;<i> other before he sets up his media.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+This is actually an option I thought of...
+
+Providing two mirror list, one list with &quot;free&quot; mirrors and one with
+&quot;full&quot; mirrors.
+
+--
+Thomas
+
+</PRE>
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+ <B>Thomas Backlund</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF14731.8020007%40iki.fi%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">tmb at iki.fi
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 19:00:17 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>Michael scherer skrev 27.11.2010 10:43:
+&gt;<i> On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 10:29:14PM +0200, Thomas Backlund wrote:
+</I>[...]
+&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> Then we come to the &quot;problematic&quot; part:
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> This part look really too complex to me.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> ------
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> /x86_64/
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> /media/
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> /codecs/ (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> so, ogg, webm, being codec, should go there or not ?
+</I>&gt;<i> What about patents problem about something else than codec ?
+</I>&gt;<i> ( freetype, image such as gif, DRM stuff )
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+Actually this is the &quot;maybe_legal_greyzone&quot; repo,
+but since flagging it as &quot;codecs&quot; would really make people
+react, I named it so for now...
+
+&gt;&gt;<i> /core/ (old main+contrib)
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> /backports/ (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> /backports_testing/ (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> /release/
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> /testing/ (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> /updates/
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> /extra/ (unmaintained, disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> If used by people, then why no one step to maintain anything ?
+</I>
+Yeah, thats the problem.
+And reality shows we have a lot of packages assigned to nomaintainer@ ...
+
+&gt;<i> If someone take the maintainace, does it mean that we will move the package ?
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+Yes.
+And if a package in /core/ gets orphaned, it will be moved to /extra/
+after a &quot;grace period&quot; of a month or so...
+
+&gt;&gt;<i> /firmware/ (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Why separate firmware from non_free ? What does it bring ?
+</I>&gt;<i> Since both of them are disabled by default, they can be simply merged.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+Well, this suggestion is partly based on the fact that we have users
+that want a firmware free install, wich this would satisfy...
+
+But yes, if we ignore those suggestions, we split the firmwares in GPL
+-&gt; /core/ and the rest to /non-free/
+
+&gt;&gt;<i> /games/ (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> That's a simplification that make no sense.
+</I>&gt;<i> Not all games are big, not all big packages are games ( tetex, openoffice ).
+</I>
+It's not only a size question, its also a nice option for companies to
+not mirror games (&quot;employees should work, not play...&quot;)
+
+And we have some contributors that already have stated that they plan to
+add all possible games so it will grow.
+and we all know games are the fastest growing /space demanding...
+
+&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> This only bring complexity on our side, complexity on mirror side, and
+</I>&gt;<i> bring few improvement to users. A rather more precise label would be to have
+</I>&gt;<i> /contents/ repository, as this is not the game that take space, but the content.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> And a explicit policy of splitting content from big packages, with a explicit size or
+</I>&gt;<i> expected size for limit ( like if the package is more than 100 mo ). That's also a media
+</I>&gt;<i> where deltarpm would make sense, or someting like that. In the mean time this would
+</I>&gt;<i> only bring complexity to everybody else.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> /non-free/ (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> /debug_*/ (disabled by default)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> And what are the relation of requirements ?
+</I>&gt;<i> Ie, what can requires non_free, codecs, games, etc ?
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+IMHO /core/ should be selfcontained.
+We are promoting open source after all.
+
+&gt;<i> And what about something that can goes in both media, ie a non_free
+</I>&gt;<i> game goes where ? A unmaintained codecs goes where ?
+</I>
+Yeah, to be precise, that would need a games_non-free
+
+For codecs either a extra_codecs or simply drop after a grace period.
+but I guess codecs are important to people, so hopefully they wont get
+orphaned...
+
+
+--
+Thomas
+</PRE>
+
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+ <B>Thomas Backlund</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C4CF14CBF.4050105%40iki.fi%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">tmb at iki.fi
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 19:23:59 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>Jerome Quelin skrev 27.11.2010 19:11:
+&gt;<i> On 10/11/27 17:59 +0100, Maarten Vanraes wrote:
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> i agree, the less repositories the easier it'll be.
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> however, core is for all the &quot;maintained&quot; packages, extra is for the
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> unmaintained packages that build ok.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> what is a &quot;maintained&quot; package? no maintainer, no commits since x
+</I>&gt;<i> months, not buildable? what if we move to packages being maintained by
+</I>&gt;<i> <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">foopkg at packages.mageia.org</A> aliases?
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+if maintainer db says nomaintainer@ it belong in /extra/
+
+&gt;<i> what are the rules to move a package from extra to core, and vice-versa?
+</I>&gt;<i> who can do it? will it be done automatically? will this imply a rebuild
+</I>&gt;<i> for the package?
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+If a maintainer picks up maintainership of a package in /extra/ it will
+be rebuilt and moved to /core/ asap.
+
+if a package in /core/ ends up nomaintainer@, then after a &quot;grace
+period&quot; (1-3 months ?) it will be moved to /extra/.
+and sometime before RC1 or so, any momaintainer@ package in /core/ will
+get moved to /extra/ as for a release the /core/ should only contain
+maintained packages.
+
+&gt;<i> what are the dependency rules? can a core package depend on an extra
+</I>&gt;<i> package? or with a buildrequires?
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+No.
+If you need to build against a package in /extra/, either pick up the
+maintainership of it, or try to get someone other to maintain it.
+then it can get into /core/
+
+&gt;<i> and, more importantly: what is the advantage? that is, what does that
+</I>&gt;<i> bring you, except more admin?
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+QA!
+and enduser satisfaction.
+
+Just take a look on many bugreports in MDV Bugzilla.
+If the report is against a nomaintainer@ package, currently Triage
+pretty much only can state &quot;thanks for your report, but since it has
+no maintainer, nothing will probably happend&quot; wich is not good answer
+for a person that have taken the time to report a bug.
+
+By having the /extra/ disabled by default, and a popup notifying the
+user if he enables it that the packages are &quot;unmaintained&quot; he knows
+he's &quot;on his own&quot;
+
+&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> sorry, consider me not impressed by this idea. or maybe it's just that i
+</I>&gt;<i> failed to see the benefits. please enlighten me.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+--
+Thomas
+</PRE>
+
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+ <B>Maarten Vanraes</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C201011272103.16544.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 21:03:16 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>Op zaterdag 27 november 2010 19:23:59 schreef Thomas Backlund:
+&gt;<i> Jerome Quelin skrev 27.11.2010 19:11:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; On 10/11/27 17:59 +0100, Maarten Vanraes wrote:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; i agree, the less repositories the easier it'll be.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; however, core is for all the &quot;maintained&quot; packages, extra is for the
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;&gt; unmaintained packages that build ok.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; what is a &quot;maintained&quot; package? no maintainer, no commits since x
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; months, not buildable? what if we move to packages being maintained by
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">foopkg at packages.mageia.org</A> aliases?
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> if maintainer db says nomaintainer@ it belong in /extra/
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; what are the rules to move a package from extra to core, and vice-versa?
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; who can do it? will it be done automatically? will this imply a rebuild
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; for the package?
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> If a maintainer picks up maintainership of a package in /extra/ it will
+</I>&gt;<i> be rebuilt and moved to /core/ asap.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> if a package in /core/ ends up nomaintainer@, then after a &quot;grace
+</I>&gt;<i> period&quot; (1-3 months ?) it will be moved to /extra/.
+</I>&gt;<i> and sometime before RC1 or so, any momaintainer@ package in /core/ will
+</I>&gt;<i> get moved to /extra/ as for a release the /core/ should only contain
+</I>&gt;<i> maintained packages.
+</I>
+i would actually only move during cauldron freeze period (or right before it);
+in both ways; so that the releases always stay the same for this kind of
+thing.
+
+
+&gt;<i> &gt; what are the dependency rules? can a core package depend on an extra
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; package? or with a buildrequires?
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> No.
+</I>&gt;<i> If you need to build against a package in /extra/, either pick up the
+</I>&gt;<i> maintainership of it, or try to get someone other to maintain it.
+</I>&gt;<i> then it can get into /core/
+</I>
+indeed, i would do this very strict; sometimes this might happen with some
+kind of really core package, and then we'll have no choice but find a
+maintainer for it; which is imho better.
+
+&gt;<i> &gt; and, more importantly: what is the advantage? that is, what does that
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; bring you, except more admin?
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> QA!
+</I>&gt;<i> and enduser satisfaction.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Just take a look on many bugreports in MDV Bugzilla.
+</I>&gt;<i> If the report is against a nomaintainer@ package, currently Triage
+</I>&gt;<i> pretty much only can state &quot;thanks for your report, but since it has
+</I>&gt;<i> no maintainer, nothing will probably happend&quot; wich is not good answer
+</I>&gt;<i> for a person that have taken the time to report a bug.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> By having the /extra/ disabled by default, and a popup notifying the
+</I>&gt;<i> user if he enables it that the packages are &quot;unmaintained&quot; he knows
+</I>&gt;<i> he's &quot;on his own&quot;
+</I>
+i agree
+
+&gt;<i> &gt; sorry, consider me not impressed by this idea. or maybe it's just that i
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; failed to see the benefits. please enlighten me.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> --
+</I>&gt;<i> Thomas
+</I></PRE>
+
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+ <B>Michael scherer</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C20101127210743.GA2419%40sisay.ephaone.org%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">misc at zarb.org
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 22:07:43 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 08:23:59PM +0200, Thomas Backlund wrote:
+&gt;<i> Jerome Quelin skrev 27.11.2010 19:11:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;On 10/11/27 17:59 +0100, Maarten Vanraes wrote:
+</I>
+&gt;<i> &gt;what are the rules to move a package from extra to core, and vice-versa?
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;who can do it? will it be done automatically? will this imply a rebuild
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;for the package?
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> If a maintainer picks up maintainership of a package in /extra/ it will
+</I>&gt;<i> be rebuilt and moved to /core/ asap.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> if a package in /core/ ends up nomaintainer@, then after a &quot;grace
+</I>&gt;<i> period&quot; (1-3 months ?) it will be moved to /extra/.
+</I>&gt;<i> and sometime before RC1 or so, any momaintainer@ package in /core/
+</I>&gt;<i> will get moved to /extra/ as for a release the /core/ should only
+</I>&gt;<i> contain maintained packages.
+</I>
+But isn't it in contradiction with the fact that release should not be changed ?
+
+IE, a package could be in core for one release, and extras in another.
+
+What happen to such shrodingerian packages ?
+What happen if this break the self containement ?
+And finally, isn't it redoing contribs/main , leading in the future to the same
+problem we tried to avoid ?
+
+&gt;<i> &gt;what are the dependency rules? can a core package depend on an extra
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;package? or with a buildrequires?
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> No.
+</I>&gt;<i> If you need to build against a package in /extra/, either pick up
+</I>&gt;<i> the maintainership of it, or try to get someone other to maintain
+</I>&gt;<i> it.
+</I>&gt;<i> then it can get into /core/
+</I>
+And so, if no one step, wouldn't it be like current mdv, where people will say
+they maintain the package just because someone has to do the job ?
+
+&gt;<i> &gt;and, more importantly: what is the advantage? that is, what does that
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;bring you, except more admin?
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> QA!
+</I>&gt;<i> and enduser satisfaction.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Just take a look on many bugreports in MDV Bugzilla.
+</I>&gt;<i> If the report is against a nomaintainer@ package, currently Triage
+</I>&gt;<i> pretty much only can state &quot;thanks for your report, but since it has
+</I>&gt;<i> no maintainer, nothing will probably happend&quot; wich is not good answer
+</I>&gt;<i> for a person that have taken the time to report a bug.
+</I>
+Then why don't we either :
+- decide that non maintened package must be taken care by trainee, as
+part of the training
+- decide to clean them.
+
+&gt;<i> By having the /extra/ disabled by default, and a popup notifying the
+</I>&gt;<i> user if he enables it that the packages are &quot;unmaintained&quot; he knows
+</I>&gt;<i> he's &quot;on his own&quot;
+</I>
+That's already what the GPL say, basically :)
+( you have no garantee of anything ).
+
+Yet, I fail to see what benefit it does really bring to users. Most of them
+will enable the media ( because some people enable everything ), will forget
+the message ( because we always forget popup, thanks
+to endless abuse of such popup ),
+and the only benefit is that we could tell &quot;we told you&quot;. Not really satisfying,
+and if I was a user, it would not really please me, nor inspire confidence.
+
+We could avoid adding a media by merging this media with core,
+and show the popup when a user install a package without maintainer,
+telling either &quot;beware, this package is currently marked as not maintained, and may
+be buggy. We will try to do what we can to help in this case, but no one is officialy in charge&quot;
+or &quot;we are seeking help on taking care of this package, if you use it often, please
+register on $URL&quot;
+
+--
+Michael Scherer
+</PRE>
+
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+ <B>Maarten Vanraes</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout%2C%20round%20two&In-Reply-To=%3C201011272316.57088.maarten.vanraes%40gmail.com%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two">maarten.vanraes at gmail.com
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Sat Nov 27 23:16:57 CET 2010</I>
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+<PRE>Op zaterdag 27 november 2010 22:07:43 schreef Michael scherer:
+&gt;<i> On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 08:23:59PM +0200, Thomas Backlund wrote:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; Jerome Quelin skrev 27.11.2010 19:11:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt;On 10/11/27 17:59 +0100, Maarten Vanraes wrote:
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt;what are the rules to move a package from extra to core, and vice-versa?
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt;who can do it? will it be done automatically? will this imply a rebuild
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt;for the package?
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; If a maintainer picks up maintainership of a package in /extra/ it will
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; be rebuilt and moved to /core/ asap.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; if a package in /core/ ends up nomaintainer@, then after a &quot;grace
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; period&quot; (1-3 months ?) it will be moved to /extra/.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; and sometime before RC1 or so, any momaintainer@ package in /core/
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; will get moved to /extra/ as for a release the /core/ should only
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; contain maintained packages.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> But isn't it in contradiction with the fact that release should not be
+</I>&gt;<i> changed ?
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> IE, a package could be in core for one release, and extras in another.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> What happen to such shrodingerian packages ?
+</I>&gt;<i> What happen if this break the self containement ?
+</I>&gt;<i> And finally, isn't it redoing contribs/main , leading in the future to the
+</I>&gt;<i> same problem we tried to avoid ?
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt;what are the dependency rules? can a core package depend on an extra
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt;package? or with a buildrequires?
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; No.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; If you need to build against a package in /extra/, either pick up
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; the maintainership of it, or try to get someone other to maintain
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; it.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; then it can get into /core/
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> And so, if no one step, wouldn't it be like current mdv, where people will
+</I>&gt;<i> say they maintain the package just because someone has to do the job ?
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt;and, more importantly: what is the advantage? that is, what does that
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt;bring you, except more admin?
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; QA!
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; and enduser satisfaction.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; Just take a look on many bugreports in MDV Bugzilla.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; If the report is against a nomaintainer@ package, currently Triage
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; pretty much only can state &quot;thanks for your report, but since it has
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; no maintainer, nothing will probably happend&quot; wich is not good answer
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; for a person that have taken the time to report a bug.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Then why don't we either :
+</I>&gt;<i> - decide that non maintened package must be taken care by trainee, as
+</I>&gt;<i> part of the training
+</I>&gt;<i> - decide to clean them.
+</I>
+that's a great idea, we need more trainees! but of course, we can't do that
+with all 5000+ unmaintained packages...
+
+is there a way to get rpm usage stats from those unmaintained packages.
+
+&gt;<i> &gt; By having the /extra/ disabled by default, and a popup notifying the
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; user if he enables it that the packages are &quot;unmaintained&quot; he knows
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; he's &quot;on his own&quot;
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> That's already what the GPL say, basically :)
+</I>&gt;<i> ( you have no garantee of anything ).
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Yet, I fail to see what benefit it does really bring to users. Most of them
+</I>&gt;<i> will enable the media ( because some people enable everything ), will
+</I>&gt;<i> forget the message ( because we always forget popup, thanks
+</I>&gt;<i> to endless abuse of such popup ),
+</I>&gt;<i> and the only benefit is that we could tell &quot;we told you&quot;. Not really
+</I>&gt;<i> satisfying, and if I was a user, it would not really please me, nor
+</I>&gt;<i> inspire confidence.
+</I>
+some would, but that they'd also enable testing, backports, debug, etc... if
+they really do so, it's kind of their own fault. i don't think the majority
+does that. the majority leaves it at default.
+
+The thing is that you have no guarantee, but the thing is, with mdv, there's
+too much packages that just don't work; you install it, you click in the menu
+and nothing happens because it doesn't work. if i have 2 packages that do the
+same thing and one of them is in extra; then i get only one, if i can't find
+any, i can enable the searching in extra and try to find a package that works.
+
+that's why i personally would prefer to leave these off by default.
+
+&gt;<i> We could avoid adding a media by merging this media with core,
+</I>&gt;<i> and show the popup when a user install a package without maintainer,
+</I>&gt;<i> telling either &quot;beware, this package is currently marked as not maintained,
+</I>&gt;<i> and may be buggy. We will try to do what we can to help in this case, but
+</I>&gt;<i> no one is officialy in charge&quot; or &quot;we are seeking help on taking care of
+</I>&gt;<i> this package, if you use it often, please register on $URL&quot;
+</I>
+this popup will get ignored too; and persons who are perfectly aware of it,
+will grow irritated.
+
+futhermore: (no separate extra)
+ - huge amount of packages (think of the mirrors)
+ - huge hdlists
+</PRE>
+
+<!--endarticle-->
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+ <h1>27 November 2010 Archives by author</h1>
+ <ul>
+ <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b>
+ <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a>
+ <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a>
+
+ <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a>
+
+ <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More info on this list...
+ </a></b></li>
+ </ul>
+ <p><b>Starting:</b> <i>Sat Nov 27 00:00:55 CET 2010</i><br>
+ <b>Ending:</b> <i>Sat Nov 27 23:16:57 CET 2010</i><br>
+ <b>Messages:</b> 33<p>
+ <ul>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001439.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1439">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Thomas Backlund
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001442.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1442">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Thomas Backlund
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001466.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1466">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Thomas Backlund
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001467.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1467">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Thomas Backlund
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001468.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1468">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Thomas Backlund
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001448.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1448">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Wolfgang Bornath
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001450.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1450">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Wolfgang Bornath
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001459.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1459">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Wolfgang Bornath
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001465.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1465">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Wolfgang Bornath
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001447.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1447">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Andrey Borzenkov
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001441.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1441">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Renaud MICHEL
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001460.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1460">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Jerome Quelin
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001463.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1463">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Jerome Quelin
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001449.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1449">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Ahmad Samir
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001455.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1455">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Ahmad Samir
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001440.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1440">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001443.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1443">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001445.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1445">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001446.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1446">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001457.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1457">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001458.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1458">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001461.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1461">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001462.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1462">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001464.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1464">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001469.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1469">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001471.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1471">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001456.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1456">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>andre999
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001444.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1444">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Romain d'Alverny
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001451.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1451">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Michael scherer
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001452.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1452">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Michael scherer
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001453.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1453">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Michael scherer
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001454.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1454">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Michael scherer
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001470.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1470">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Michael scherer
+</I>
+
+ </ul>
+ <p>
+ <a name="end"><b>Last message date:</b></a>
+ <i>Sat Nov 27 23:16:57 CET 2010</i><br>
+ <b>Archived on:</b> <i>Sat Nov 27 23:17:04 CET 2010</i>
+ <p>
+ <ul>
+ <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b>
+ <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a>
+ <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a>
+
+ <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a>
+ <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More info on this list...
+ </a></b></li>
+ </ul>
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+ <hr>
+ <i>This archive was generated by
+ Pipermail 0.09 (Mailman edition).</i>
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diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101127/date.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101127/date.html
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+ <HEAD>
+ <title>The Mageia-dev 27 November 2010 Archive by date</title>
+ <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="noindex,follow">
+ <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
+ </HEAD>
+ <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff">
+ <a name="start"></A>
+ <h1>27 November 2010 Archives by date</h1>
+ <ul>
+ <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b>
+ <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a>
+ <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a>
+ <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a>
+
+
+ <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More info on this list...
+ </a></b></li>
+ </ul>
+ <p><b>Starting:</b> <i>Sat Nov 27 00:00:55 CET 2010</i><br>
+ <b>Ending:</b> <i>Sat Nov 27 23:16:57 CET 2010</i><br>
+ <b>Messages:</b> 33<p>
+ <ul>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001439.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1439">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Thomas Backlund
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001440.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1440">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001442.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1442">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Thomas Backlund
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001441.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1441">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Renaud MICHEL
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001443.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1443">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001444.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1444">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Romain d'Alverny
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001445.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1445">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001446.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1446">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001447.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1447">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Andrey Borzenkov
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001448.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1448">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Wolfgang Bornath
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001449.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1449">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Ahmad Samir
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001450.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1450">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Wolfgang Bornath
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001451.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1451">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Michael scherer
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001452.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1452">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Michael scherer
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001453.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1453">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Michael scherer
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001454.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1454">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Michael scherer
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001455.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1455">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Ahmad Samir
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001456.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1456">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>andre999
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001457.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1457">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001458.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1458">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001459.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1459">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Wolfgang Bornath
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001460.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1460">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Jerome Quelin
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001461.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1461">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001462.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1462">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001463.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1463">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Jerome Quelin
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001464.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1464">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001465.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1465">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Wolfgang Bornath
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001466.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1466">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Thomas Backlund
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001467.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1467">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Thomas Backlund
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001468.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1468">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Thomas Backlund
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001469.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1469">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001470.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1470">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Michael scherer
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001471.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1471">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+ </ul>
+ <p>
+ <a name="end"><b>Last message date:</b></a>
+ <i>Sat Nov 27 23:16:57 CET 2010</i><br>
+ <b>Archived on:</b> <i>Sat Nov 27 23:17:04 CET 2010</i>
+ <p>
+ <ul>
+ <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b>
+ <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a>
+ <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a>
+ <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a>
+
+ <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More info on this list...
+ </a></b></li>
+ </ul>
+ <p>
+ <hr>
+ <i>This archive was generated by
+ Pipermail 0.09 (Mailman edition).</i>
+ </BODY>
+</HTML>
+
diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101127/index.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101127/index.html
new file mode 120000
index 000000000..db4b46f72
--- /dev/null
+++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101127/index.html
@@ -0,0 +1 @@
+thread.html \ No newline at end of file
diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101127/subject.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101127/subject.html
new file mode 100644
index 000000000..5a72495f5
--- /dev/null
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@@ -0,0 +1,212 @@
+<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
+<HTML>
+ <HEAD>
+ <title>The Mageia-dev 27 November 2010 Archive by subject</title>
+ <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="noindex,follow">
+ <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
+ </HEAD>
+ <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff">
+ <a name="start"></A>
+ <h1>27 November 2010 Archives by subject</h1>
+ <ul>
+ <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b>
+ <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a>
+
+ <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a>
+ <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a>
+
+ <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More info on this list...
+ </a></b></li>
+ </ul>
+ <p><b>Starting:</b> <i>Sat Nov 27 00:00:55 CET 2010</i><br>
+ <b>Ending:</b> <i>Sat Nov 27 23:16:57 CET 2010</i><br>
+ <b>Messages:</b> 33<p>
+ <ul>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001439.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1439">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Thomas Backlund
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001440.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1440">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001442.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1442">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Thomas Backlund
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001441.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1441">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Renaud MICHEL
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001443.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1443">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001444.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1444">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Romain d'Alverny
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001445.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1445">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001446.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1446">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001447.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1447">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Andrey Borzenkov
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001448.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1448">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Wolfgang Bornath
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001449.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1449">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Ahmad Samir
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001450.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1450">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Wolfgang Bornath
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001451.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1451">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Michael scherer
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001452.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1452">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Michael scherer
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001453.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1453">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Michael scherer
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001454.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1454">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Michael scherer
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001455.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1455">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Ahmad Samir
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001456.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1456">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>andre999
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001457.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1457">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001458.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1458">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001459.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1459">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Wolfgang Bornath
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001460.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1460">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Jerome Quelin
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001461.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1461">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001462.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1462">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001463.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1463">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Jerome Quelin
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001464.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1464">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001465.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1465">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Wolfgang Bornath
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001466.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1466">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Thomas Backlund
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001467.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1467">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Thomas Backlund
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001468.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1468">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Thomas Backlund
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001469.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1469">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001470.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1470">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Michael scherer
+</I>
+
+<LI><A HREF="001471.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1471">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+ </ul>
+ <p>
+ <a name="end"><b>Last message date:</b></a>
+ <i>Sat Nov 27 23:16:57 CET 2010</i><br>
+ <b>Archived on:</b> <i>Sat Nov 27 23:17:04 CET 2010</i>
+ <p>
+ <ul>
+ <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b>
+ <a href="thread.html#start">[ thread ]</a>
+
+ <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a>
+ <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a>
+ <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More info on this list...
+ </a></b></li>
+ </ul>
+ <p>
+ <hr>
+ <i>This archive was generated by
+ Pipermail 0.09 (Mailman edition).</i>
+ </BODY>
+</HTML>
+
diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101127/thread.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101127/thread.html
new file mode 100644
index 000000000..22fc9b50b
--- /dev/null
+++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101127/thread.html
@@ -0,0 +1,271 @@
+<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
+<HTML>
+ <HEAD>
+ <title>The Mageia-dev 27 November 2010 Archive by thread</title>
+ <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="noindex,follow">
+ <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
+ </HEAD>
+ <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff">
+ <a name="start"></A>
+ <h1>27 November 2010 Archives by thread</h1>
+ <ul>
+ <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b>
+
+ <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a>
+ <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a>
+ <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a>
+
+ <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More info on this list...
+ </a></b></li>
+ </ul>
+ <p><b>Starting:</b> <i>Sat Nov 27 00:00:55 CET 2010</i><br>
+ <b>Ending:</b> <i>Sat Nov 27 23:16:57 CET 2010</i><br>
+ <b>Messages:</b> 33<p>
+ <ul>
+
+<!--0 01290812455- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001439.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1439">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Thomas Backlund
+</I>
+
+<!--0 01290812574- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001440.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1440">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<UL>
+<!--1 01290812574-01290813917- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001442.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1442">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Thomas Backlund
+</I>
+
+<UL>
+<!--2 01290812574-01290813917-01290815069- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001443.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1443">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<UL>
+<!--3 01290812574-01290813917-01290815069-01290815519- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001444.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1444">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Romain d'Alverny
+</I>
+
+<!--3 01290812574-01290813917-01290815069-01290815519-01290815990- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001445.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1445">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<!--3 01290812574-01290813917-01290815069-01290815519-01290816174- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001446.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1446">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<!--3 01290812574-01290813917-01290815069-01290815519-01290848633- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001453.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1453">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Michael scherer
+</I>
+
+<!--3 01290812574-01290813917-01290815069-01290815519-01290848633-01290862023- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001457.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1457">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+</UL>
+</UL>
+<!--1 01290812574-01290814455- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001441.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1441">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Renaud MICHEL
+</I>
+
+<!--1 01290812574-01290847802- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001452.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1452">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Michael scherer
+</I>
+
+</UL>
+<!--0 01290839232- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001447.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1447">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Andrey Borzenkov
+</I>
+
+<UL>
+<!--1 01290839232-01290840940- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001448.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1448">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Wolfgang Bornath
+</I>
+
+<!--1 01290839232-01290841250- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001449.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1449">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Ahmad Samir
+</I>
+
+<UL>
+<!--2 01290839232-01290841250-01290844986- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001450.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1450">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Wolfgang Bornath
+</I>
+
+<UL>
+<!--3 01290839232-01290841250-01290844986-01290879569- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001466.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1466">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Thomas Backlund
+</I>
+
+</UL>
+<!--2 01290839232-01290841250-01290849216- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001454.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1454">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Michael scherer
+</I>
+
+<UL>
+<!--3 01290839232-01290841250-01290849216-01290850888- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001455.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1455">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Ahmad Samir
+</I>
+
+</UL>
+<!--2 01290839232-01290841250-01290854580- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001456.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1456">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>andre999
+</I>
+
+</UL>
+</UL>
+<!--0 01290847434- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001451.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1451">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Michael scherer
+</I>
+
+<UL>
+<!--1 01290847434-01290862866- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001458.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1458">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<UL>
+<!--2 01290847434-01290862866-01290864088- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001459.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1459">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Wolfgang Bornath
+</I>
+
+<UL>
+<!--3 01290847434-01290862866-01290864088-01290877079- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001461.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1461">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<!--3 01290847434-01290862866-01290864088-01290877079-01290879511- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001465.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1465">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Wolfgang Bornath
+</I>
+
+</UL>
+</UL>
+<!--1 01290847434-01290880817- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001467.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1467">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Thomas Backlund
+</I>
+
+</UL>
+<!--0 01290874834- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001460.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1460">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Jerome Quelin
+</I>
+
+<UL>
+<!--1 01290874834-01290877143- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001462.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1462">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<UL>
+<!--2 01290874834-01290877143-01290877896- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001463.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1463">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Jerome Quelin
+</I>
+
+<UL>
+<!--3 01290874834-01290877143-01290877896-01290878882- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001464.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1464">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<!--3 01290874834-01290877143-01290877896-01290882239- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001468.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1468">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Thomas Backlund
+</I>
+
+<!--3 01290874834-01290877143-01290877896-01290882239-01290888196- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001469.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1469">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+<!--3 01290874834-01290877143-01290877896-01290882239-01290892063- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001470.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1470">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Michael scherer
+</I>
+
+<!--3 01290874834-01290877143-01290877896-01290882239-01290892063-01290896217- -->
+<LI><A HREF="001471.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout, round two
+</A><A NAME="1471">&nbsp;</A>
+<I>Maarten Vanraes
+</I>
+
+</UL>
+</UL>
+</UL>
+ </ul>
+ <p>
+ <a name="end"><b>Last message date:</b></a>
+ <i>Sat Nov 27 23:16:57 CET 2010</i><br>
+ <b>Archived on:</b> <i>Sat Nov 27 23:17:04 CET 2010</i>
+ <p>
+ <ul>
+ <li> <b>Messages sorted by:</b>
+
+ <a href="subject.html#start">[ subject ]</a>
+ <a href="author.html#start">[ author ]</a>
+ <a href="date.html#start">[ date ]</a>
+ <li><b><a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More info on this list...
+ </a></b></li>
+ </ul>
+ <p>
+ <hr>
+ <i>This archive was generated by
+ Pipermail 0.09 (Mailman edition).</i>
+ </BODY>
+</HTML>
+