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diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100926/000266.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100926/000266.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..2be3a1a9f --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100926/000266.html @@ -0,0 +1,238 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] i686 must be Pentium II ? + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20i686%20must%20be%20Pentium%20II%20%3F&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTikR%3D%3DwEmH8JZBxFTQwWrA7p%2ByjvQ4P80u1X%2BovV%40mail.gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="000261.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="000235.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] i686 must be Pentium II ?</H1> + <B>Giuseppe Ghibò</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20i686%20must%20be%20Pentium%20II%20%3F&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTikR%3D%3DwEmH8JZBxFTQwWrA7p%2ByjvQ4P80u1X%2BovV%40mail.gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] i686 must be Pentium II ?">ghibomgx at gmail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Sun Sep 26 17:04:19 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000261.html">[Mageia-dev] i686 must be Pentium II ? +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000235.html">[Mageia-dev] i686 must be Pentium II ? +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#266">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#266">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#266">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#266">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>2010/9/26 andré <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">andr55 at laposte.net</A>> + +><i> Thomas Backlund a écrit : +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>>><i> Giuseppe Ghibò skrev 26.9.2010 14:59: +</I>>><i> +</I>>>><i> 2010/9/26 Thomas Backlund <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">tmb at iki.fi</A> <mailto:<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">tmb at iki.fi</A>>> +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> Giuseppe Ghibò skrev 26.9.2010 02:09: +</I>>>><i> > +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> I don't want to deprive the fun of building a router or a +</I>>>><i> firewall from +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> an old P133/64 with two ethernet cards, or some mediabox, but +</I>>>><i> often you +</I>>>><i> can't (and sometimes you pay of energy power in a year much +</I>>>><i> more than +</I>>>><i> getting some 30-50E linksys ARM linux based router. And when +</I>>>><i> soemone try +</I>>>><i> such kind of attempts in the real world with your distro, will +</I>>>><i> be very +</I>>>><i> disappointed of failures. That's why I in some way asked a survey +</I>>>><i> of +</I>>>><i> oldest hardware based on own experiences. +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> You still miss the point that in Mageia community there are many +</I>>>><i> users that find 30-50e a _lot_ of money, and we dont want to shut +</I>>>><i> them out. +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> I'm not decreasing the value of the money, but rather I was pointing out +</I>>>><i> the false assumption that mageia (or the current inherited mandriva) +</I>>>><i> would work and would work FINE (or at all) on that hardware just because +</I>>>><i> it was using a compatible instruction set. +</I>>>><i> +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Well, it depends of what you consider "FINE". +</I>>><i> I dont expect people using old hardware to try to get KDE or any 3d stuff +</I>>><i> to work "FINE". +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> But we have lightweight platforms such as lxde and xfce that both works +</I>>><i> moderate/fast on a 200MHz+ platform with 128MB+ RAM. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Then if you want it as a server, its even easier... you dont even need a +</I>>><i> DE/GUI, as it's manageable through console/shell. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> I'm not against this, but if +</I>>>><i> that we wanna support that kind of hardware there is MUCH MORE work to +</I>>>><i> do (I suggested a LEGACY section in the wiki, but seems it wasn't +</I>>>><i> caught) than just keeping the actual flags, because in that way if we +</I>>>><i> don't change then nobody will complain. Even the simple lzma payload of +</I>>>><i> rpm packages requires much more memory than in the past with gzip. I'm +</I>>>><i> not sure with current squashfs for the initial ram disks. +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> I already cited there are other distro which maybe do a lot better this +</I>>>><i> job. In many countries there isn't even the broadband, dialup, nor the +</I>>>><i> electrical power for them. Right now you are almost assuming that a 10 +</I>>>><i> years old instruction set is still a no go, and that our distro is +</I>>>><i> optimized like the one of the One Laptop Per Child Project. +</I>>>><i> +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> I know we dont optimize for OLPC. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Yes, the instruction set is old, but there are many systems that are +</I>>><i> older. and even if the hw is newer, it still does not enforce full i686 +</I>>><i> spec, as seen for example with either missing CMOV or another broken +</I>>><i> register. Even Intel got it wrong with some series of the Pentium D wich +</I>>><i> didn't work with i686 series builds... +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Sadly it +</I>>>><i> isn't. But there is also a 2nd point: on old hardware it is still +</I>>>><i> possible to run old software and old distros: strange but true. Such old +</I>>>><i> software is still doing its dirty job. It's not that you get a trojan as +</I>>>><i> soon as you put the nose out the net. There are still ways of +</I>>>><i> configuring a distro on a LAN and trust in the people using the +</I>>>><i> terminals locally. Many schools still use them. In a 2 hours lesson at +</I>>>><i> school you can't wait half an our just to have your desktop booting..., +</I>>>><i> +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> It does not take half an hour if you use xfce/lxde. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> the same if you plan an antispam server with latest antispam tools on a +</I>>>><i> server of that category (server that was doing it's dirty job with the +</I>>>><i> distro of 2 or 3 generations ago). +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> +</I>>><i> Oh, I know several servers out there running on i586 ~200Mhz that has no +</I>>><i> problem what so ever keeping up with the spam/av filtering. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> I also tried such old hardware, but there are much less bloated distro +</I>>>><i> and less bloated kernels (even non-linux ones) that do the job (or a +</I>>>><i> specific duty) on such hardware a lot better than ours. +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> +</I>>><i> Maybe so, but does that mean we should force them to _not_ use Mageia ? +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> -- +</I>>><i> Thomas +</I>>><i> ____ +</I>>><i> +</I>><i> To cease support for i586 seems to me to be the height of arrogance. +</I>><i> +</I> +The height of arrogance? C'mon you are seeing politics (like the apology the +culture of the waste...or a reverse robin hood which stoles CPU cycles to +poor CPU to give to rich ones) where there isn't. + + +><i> If new i586-level hardware can still be bought somewhere in the world, it +</I>><i> is still current hardware. +</I>><i> +</I> +Also i386 and i486 hardware can still bought somewhere (including ebay) and +maybe one want to run. Why we don't lower to i386 compatatibility set +instead of i586? IIRC the i586 origin was to give something more optimized +than what was the average distro like RH. But maybe this could be changed. + + +><i> And look at how many 5-year-old, and even 10-year-old, cars are still in +</I>><i> use. Since cars have inherently a much shorter life, computers bought new 5 +</I>><i> years ago, or even 10 years ago, should be still be considered current +</I>><i> hardware. It doesn't really matter if most users - +</I> + +There are many places in the world where old cars can't circulate anymore or +have restrictions in the zone where they are allowed to circulate (because +of laws according to the engine classification they are on). Maybe it's a +lobby of car vendors to sell new cars dunno. BTW, I've an old car. But the +car analogy is not appropriate because you can still use the car to reach a +place at a certain average speed and with certain safety levels (e.g. is +compliant against safety belts) not much different than the one of the +latest shining EURO5 models (also due to speed limits). Apart this, cars +don't have a shorter life than PCs. While indeed I've seen many motherboard +and hard disks dying after a much shorter period of time (and repairing +would cost much more than buying a new one). Surviving ones on a such long +period of time were just very expensive one (at the time they were new) +which had a very good maintenance. In percentage almost all the MSI +motherboards died after 5-6 years (maybe after 2 or 3). Gigabyte were +similar. ASUS had the lowest percentage of failure. Intel motherboard were +too expensive to buy. + +Furthermore many new i586 solution are of much more elitism than newer +hardware. A newer mini-itx with a VIA CPU doesn't cost less than an entry +level CPU of AMD (which arrives at SSE4.1 or more SIMD set) and an +all-in-one motherboard. And even hardware with some particular slot support +(like ISA) doesn't costs less than one having just a PCI + PCIe slot. + +concentrated in the richer countries - have much more powerful hardware. As +><i> has already been pointed out, there is 64-bit support, and a i686 +</I>><i> compilation of the kernel to satisfy those with newer hardware that can't +</I>><i> (32-bit processor or not enough memory) or prefer not to use the 64-bit +</I>><i> compilations. +</I>><i> Note that the kernel is probably where most of the performance gains are to +</I>><i> be made with i686, so dropping i586 in favour of i686 would give little in +</I>><i> performance gains. +</I>><i> After all, don't we want almost everyone to be able to use Mageia ? +</I>><i> +</I> +Of course, but it's not a panacea that runs everywhere. My initial post was +that we were still keeping a brake on and keeping compatibility for things +that NOBODY will use or CAN'T USE for technical reasons. NOBODY means ZERO, +NICHT, NADA, NOTHING. If there is at least ONE, then it's not ZERO anymore. + +So my post was to keep a BETTER support for old and legacy hardware, not +just CLAIM there is where INDEED there ISN'T or there couldn't be (because +for instance there isn't enough memory to run the installer) or that NOBODY +has TESTED for several reasons. + +Bye +Giuseppe. +-------------- next part -------------- +An HTML attachment was scrubbed... +URL: </pipermail/mageia-dev/attachments/20100926/a8609cf4/attachment-0001.html> +</PRE> + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="000261.html">[Mageia-dev] i686 must be Pentium II ? +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="000235.html">[Mageia-dev] i686 must be Pentium II ? +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#266">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#266">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#266">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#266">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> |