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| author | Nicolas Vigier <boklm@mageia.org> | 2013-04-14 13:46:12 +0000 |
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| committer | Nicolas Vigier <boklm@mageia.org> | 2013-04-14 13:46:12 +0000 |
| commit | 1be510f9529cb082f802408b472a77d074b394c0 (patch) | |
| tree | b175f9d5fcb107576dabc768e7bd04d4a3e491a0 /zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101213/001716.html | |
| parent | fa5098cf210b23ab4f419913e28af7b1b07dafb2 (diff) | |
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diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101213/001716.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101213/001716.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..82852a7f7 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20101213/001716.html @@ -0,0 +1,299 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Mirror layout + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout&In-Reply-To=%3C4D05BCE2.90805%40laposte.net%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="001717.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout</H1> + <B>andre999</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Mirror%20layout&In-Reply-To=%3C4D05BCE2.90805%40laposte.net%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout">andr55 at laposte.net + </A><BR> + <I>Mon Dec 13 07:27:46 CET 2010</I> + <P><UL> + + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001717.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1716">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1716">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1716">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1716">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Michael scherer a écrit : +><i> +</I>><i> On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 12:36:05AM -0500, andre999 wrote: +</I>>><i> Michael scherer a écrit : +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 08:16:33AM -0500, andre999 wrote: +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>>>><i> Not to mention that a ratio of 2 mirrors in the USA out of a total +</I>>>>>><i> of 25 seems rather odd, for something that admins do not care. +</I>>>>><i> +</I>>>>><i> 2 of 25 PLF mirrors in the U.S. +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> Technically, 1, since the other is down ( and should be removed from +</I>>>><i> the list ). +</I>>>><i> So a ratio of 4%. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Unless you are going to analyse what is down for the other distros, +</I>>><i> you should say 2 ± 1, that is 4 to 12% +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Ok, when I say down, I should say "the domain no longer exist". It is just +</I>><i> not registered. Not "down and it will be up" later, but "down someone didn't +</I>><i> bother to pay the domain". Obviously, I should not assume that people +</I>><i> check facts before telling me my numbers are wrong. +</I> +Right, we should have both said "discontinued". Did you understand my +point about verifying others distro's mirrors ? + +My point about comparing the numbers still stands. Unless you've seen +anyone with 2,5 mirrors, for example. And my comparisons of numbers +don't take into account other factors, which would obviously have at +least some effect. + +What I'm saying, essentially, is that your numbers in no way support +your hypothesis that carrying patented software significantly reduces +the availability of mirrors. In some cases, your numbers even suggest +the contrary. (If you don't consider other factors.) + +><i> And since other distributions have various systems to detect this ( mandriva have one, +</I>><i> fedora have one, opensuse too ), there is no need to touch to the number. +</I>><i> PLF do not have any checking tasks, so the mirror was not seen as wrong. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> ... +</I>><i> +</I>><i> And I would have removed the incorrect one, if I didn't consider this as +</I>><i> a abuse of my root privilege on zarb.org. +</I> +BTW, you could have added a comment to the page. I'm sure it would have +been appreciated. + +>><i> Or 9%. Depending on how you want to fudge the figures. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> There is no estimate or fudging involved, we have exact number +</I>><i> of mirrors, I gave the url for each distributions. +</I> +It's your methods of comparison that I'm questioning, not the raw +figures. Have you ever seen statistics that say something like "on the +average, each family has 2,2 children" ? +And have you ever seen a real 0,2 child ? +Or realize that some families will have 1 or 4 or more children, and not +just 2 or 3 ? +Hopefully you understand this point. + +>><i> But maybe it is because they (in policy at least) exclude non-free +</I>>><i> software ? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> So does debian. +</I> +Current Debian documentation says that they have repositories called +"main", "contrib", and "non-free". (Verified on a current Debian mirror.) +Just what do they put in "non-free" ? +Their documentation says software without a recognized open source +licence or subject to patent claims. + +>><i> And just how rigorously do they apply a no patent-constrained +</I>>><i> software policy ? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> A quick research could have answered to this question : +</I>><i> <A HREF="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Software_Patents">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Software_Patents</A> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> They used to remove mp3 support from source code : +</I>><i> <A HREF="http://www.csparks.com/redhatUnhoarked/index.xhtml">http://www.csparks.com/redhatUnhoarked/index.xhtml</A> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> But that was 5 years ago. Nowadays, I do not think they still do it +</I>><i> as icecast for example is not modified ( despites supporting mp3 format +</I>><i> but maybe because there is no trace of codecs, it is ok ). +</I> +So apparently not that rigorously, after all. + +>><i> Haven't I heard somewhere that Fedora (and RedHat) are based in the +</I>>><i> U.S. ? So wouldn't it be natural to expect that it would have a +</I>>><i> higher proportion of sites there ? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Debian too is based in the US ( managed since 1996 by SPI, based in NYC ). +</I> +Interesting. A distro which accepts patent-constrained software (in +their "non-free" repositories) is now based in the USA. +And you said that 13% of their mirrors were in the USA ? + +><i> ... +</I>><i> +</I>>>><i> And I didn't count other country such as Japan, where patents on software +</I>>>><i> are permitted ( <A HREF="http://en.swpat.org/wiki/Japan">http://en.swpat.org/wiki/Japan</A> ), and where the count of PLF +</I>>>><i> mirrors vs Fedora mirrors is 0 to 8. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> 0 ± 1 gives 0 to 12%. Same ballpark. +</I>>><i> Also, recruiting Fedora mirrors could be driven by the commercial +</I>>><i> interests of RedHat. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> "could" is a supposition, and I think you should give facts, not suppositions. +</I> +Just as your side of the argument is a supposition. Which is exactly my +point. Your "facts" don't give convincing support of your supposition. +As far as this supposition goes, if Fedora and/or RedHat (a well-known +entity in free software) were to approach potential mirrors in Japan, +but PLF (almost unknown) did not, just who do you think is more likely +to attract mirror hosts ? + +BTW, you might also have mentioned that there are only 2 Mandriva +mirrors in Japan. (The first 2 you mention below.) + +><i> For the mirror, there is 2 private R&D labs ( KDDI, RIKEN ), 2 university +</I>><i> ( Yamagata, JAIST ), and the rest are network related ( iij.ad.jp, wide.ad.jp, +</I>><i> dti.ad.jp, ftp.ne.jp see <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.jp">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.jp</A> for the meaning of +</I>><i> the various second level domain ). +</I>><i> +</I>><i> So I doubt that commercial interest of the main sponsor have something to do, +</I>><i> since the profile is quite similar to the usual one of most mirrors ( ie, +</I>><i> people with lots of bandwidth, servers, and interest into helping free software ). +</I> +See my explanation above. + +>>><i> More ever, the fact that this is hosted by some private and rather anonymous +</I>>>><i> company is also a important point. Ie, no .edu or big telco ever contacted +</I>>>><i> PLF to host a mirror, while in France and another country, PLF have both. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Considering that PLF is based on Mandriva, and Mandriva is based in +</I>>><i> France, wouldn't it be natural to expect PLF to be better +</I>>><i> represented there ? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> I think you missed the point. Let me explain : +</I>><i> +</I>><i> There is no USA university, nor USA telecom company that contacted PLF. +</I> +And how many USA universities or telecom companies did the PLF contact ? + +><i> On the other hand, in other part of the world, PLF is mainly hosted by telecom +</I>><i> company ( like Zoomnet and Bentel, for example ) and by universities ( Porto, Taiwan, +</I>><i> Bahcesehir among others ). +</I> +In Canada, I don't know of any mirror sites hosted by telecom companies. + And mirror sites at universities are maintained by student +associations. (Generally the computer science club.) +A Mandriva mirror at a university in my region of Canada discontinued, +apparently because the students involved in the (engineering) student +club sponsoring it either lost interest, or more likely, graduated. +Before being discontinued, we had many problems accessing it, starting +about the end of the academic year. (There was a lot of discussion +locally on the net about the problems, so I wasn't the only one affected.) + +Mandriva continued to list it as a mirror for quite a long time afterwards. +(For updates I have always been automatically directed to a slighty +closer USA mirror site.) + +I would imagine that mirror sites in the USA are more or less as in +Canada - none hosted by telecom companies, university-hosted at the +whims of interested students. + +>>>><i> Also, there are only about 400 packages for i586 in PLF mirrors. +</I>>>>><i> Since most are duplicated, I wonder how many distinct packages there are ? +</I>>>>><i> Somehow doubt that an unlicenced copy of quotes from the Simpsons +</I>>>>><i> (one of the 2 plf packages that I didn't find also in Mandriva main) +</I>>>>><i> is going to be a big attraction. +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> You should look a little bit more closely. For example, libdvdcss2 is plf only. +</I>>>><i> So does various emulator, lame ( and related like darkice ), gstreamer-bad, +</I>>>><i> etc. There is amule, and similar software. More than 2. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Of the twenty or so PLF packages that I found looking through +</I>>><i> available packages with Mandriva and PLF repositories enabled, only +</I>>><i> 2 did not also have the same version in Mandriva. (All Mandriva +</I>>><i> main, in this sample.) That is about 10% not in Mandriva. +</I>>><i> So for arguments sake let's say 20% are not in Mandriva. That makes +</I>>><i> only about 80 packages only in PLF. +</I>>><i> Impressive, isn't it ? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> You said on <A HREF="https://mageia.org/pipermail/mageia-dev/20101201/001576.html">https://mageia.org/pipermail/mageia-dev/20101201/001576.html</A> +</I>><i> that you have decades of programming experience. So I assume that writing +</I>><i> a script to get more precise numbers would not be too hard instead of +</I>><i> saying "I counted somewhere 20 packages in a limited part of the +</I>><i> distribution" :/ +</I> +I did a quick check for codec and mpeg packages, presumably many being +patent-affected. It took me all of 2 minutes. Just to get a sample. A +complete count serves no purpose. + +>><i> BTW, gstreamer*plugins-bad is in Mandriva contrib. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> But not all subpackages. Take a look at the spec file ( using +</I>><i> mdvsys should ease the work ) and see that 5 subpackages +</I>><i> are conditionnaly built. +</I> +ok + +><i> I think you may have missed the point about PLF rpms being at Mandriva. +</I>><i> ( or the contrary, depend on how you look ). +</I>><i> +</I>><i> They share the same source code, but they do not link to the same +</I>><i> software, or use the same configure options. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> So Mandriva considered that distributing mplayer without enabling mp3 +</I>><i> write support ( with lame ) was safe enough. PLF do the distribution +</I>><i> of lame, and rebuild mplayer with it ( so mencoder can write mp3 ). +</I>><i> Fedora do not distribute mplayer at all. +</I> +Makes sense. Writing mp3 has more at risk of being contested. +And creating content with proprietory protocols really isn't the +vocation of a distro promoting free software. + +><i> And that's basically the same scheme for various dual life packages +</I>><i> ( with variations about the feature that is enabled, there used to be a issue +</I>><i> on font hinting, for freetype and bytecode interpreter ) +</I> +Not surprised. So the PLF is useful, at least for some. + +BTW, I'm not trying to doubt the value of your experience and +contributions, or even to say that we couldn't work well together in my +intended future contributions. Just that I disagree with your +assessment of the impact of patent-affected software in attracting +sufficient mirrors. +That doesn't mean that it might not be, sometime in the future, useful +to have a separate set of repositories for software affected by various +legal or other constraints. Although, in that event, I would very much +prefer that it happens in a separate group, for which I think that the +PLF would be ideal. +Particularly since they could do the job for both Mageia and Mandriva, +as well as Unity, and any other distro that cares to join (the open +invitation by PLF) in the future. +(Athough I do think that they could improve their image by replacing the +guns in their logo with something else :/) +And mirror sites open to carrying such software could use a single set +of repos for all the distros concerned. + +Another 2 cents :) + +- André +</PRE> + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="001717.html">[Mageia-dev] Mirror layout +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#1716">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#1716">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#1716">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#1716">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> |