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diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101020/002523.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101020/002523.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..a677dcc4d --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101020/002523.html @@ -0,0 +1,242 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3Ci9nhev%24sfr%241%40dough.gmane.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002504.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002491.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection</H1> + <B>Marc Paré</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3Ci9nhev%24sfr%241%40dough.gmane.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection">marc at marcpare.com + </A><BR> + <I>Wed Oct 20 21:55:10 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002504.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002491.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2523">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2523">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2523">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2523">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Le 2010-10-20 07:15, Michael Scherer a écrit : +><i> Le mercredi 20 octobre 2010 à 14:26 +1300, Graham Lauder a écrit : +</I>>><i> On Tuesday 19 Oct 2010 11:38:39 Michael Scherer wrote: +</I>>>><i> Le mardi 19 octobre 2010 à 09:06 +1300, Graham Lauder a écrit : +</I>>>>><i> On Tuesday 19 Oct 2010 04:27:29 Frank Griffin wrote: +</I>>>>>><i> In FOSS, it doesn't. If enough people agree with your objective, you +</I>>>>>><i> may find that you have enough critical mass to produce a derived distro +</I>>>>>><i> with a face and personality which matches your objectives. +</I>>>>><i> +</I>>>>><i> This is one of the interesting elements of FOSS marketing that I've +</I>>>>><i> talked about in the past. That Marketing department, which in a +</I>>>>><i> corporate world always has the ear of management more so than the +</I>>>>><i> Development people simply because of human interaction capabilities, has +</I>>>>><i> to turn it's focus inward. The problem is, an one I've been trying to +</I>>>>><i> avoid here, is that it becomes insular to the exclusion of all else and +</I>>>>><i> then the community stagnates and spirals into irrelevancy. For the +</I>>>>><i> community to grow there has to be a dynamism, (and I'm talking grow in +</I>>>>><i> terms of the community of contributors) Userland is the big billboard +</I>>>>><i> of that dynamism. Ubuntu for all it's faults and annoyances has taught +</I>>>>><i> us one thing, high visibility in Userland attracts contributors. +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> Then what Fedora and Debian has taught us ? +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> Because AFAIK there is also lots of contributors in Fedora, as there is +</I>>>><i> in Debian, and I think they didn't really choose the high visibility +</I>>>><i> path to get them. So I do not think we can really find a direct +</I>>>><i> correlation between "ubuntu has lots of users" and "there is lots of +</I>>>><i> contribution". +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Debian is an interesting case in viral marketing in a highly interconnected +</I>>><i> demographic. I always remember the "OMG we have a new release!" that used to +</I>>><i> race round the maillists and Usergroups. It never really had a market share, +</I>>><i> rather it had almost a monopoly in its chosen demographic. It is deliberately +</I>>><i> eclectic and famously stubborn and being part of the community is as important +</I>>><i> as the software itself, I mean he named it after his wife and himself, Deb and +</I>>><i> Ian, how cool is that. It was just that attitude that endeared it to it's +</I>>><i> chosen community and good on them. Slackware and Gentoo have a similar ethic. +</I>>><i> And more power to them. It wasn't until Ubuntu came along that Debian gained +</I>>><i> much in the way of widespread traction. However it was it's obsession with +</I>>><i> stability that attracted the Mark. They could afford to break things because +</I>>><i> they had this super stable backstop, but at the end of the day, Debian counts +</I>>><i> the Ubuntu user as it's community, I would be interested to know how many more +</I>>><i> developers Debian picked up in the wake of Ubuntu's popularity, I certainly +</I>>><i> know quite a few. Certainly HPs support was post Ubuntu startup +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Fedora has the benefit of age, being around a long time and focusing in the +</I>>><i> corporate space is a good way to lift profile in your preferred market. I +</I>>><i> don't have any figures unfortunately but I would suspect many came from Red +</I>>><i> Hat sites. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> In any case, both are in fact very small in terms of the whole desktop market +</I>>><i> and even in terms of all developers. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Small in term of direct users, but they are the one with the more +</I>><i> contributers, and therefor, the one that are likely to survive in the +</I>><i> long term. And while it is not a stated goal of Mageia, I hope it is +</I>><i> obvious to everybody that we ( aka the founders ) forked the project +</I>><i> because we wanted it to survive in case of problem on Mandriva side. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> If we look at the number of contributers in the overall free software +</I>><i> distribution community. I think that Debian and Fedora are one of the +</I>><i> biggest one. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> The fedora account system tell me there is 21000 members in the group of +</I>><i> people who signed the contributer level agreement ( CLA ), around 1100 +</I>><i> in the packager group, around 100 in the marketing group. I suspect that +</I>><i> opening a account is required to edit the wiki or something like that, +</I>><i> hence the high number of accounts. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> A quick search on debian ldap directory ( ldapsearch -x -H +</I>><i> <A HREF="ldap://db.debian.org">ldap://db.debian.org</A> -b ou=users,dc=debian,dc=org +</I>><i> '(objectClass=debianAccount)' ) tell me there is around 1650 accounts, +</I>><i> which roughly translate to the same number of packagers for the time +</I>><i> being. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Ubuntu "only" have 650 people in the ubuntu-member group +</I>><i> ( <A HREF="https://launchpad.net/~ubuntumembers">https://launchpad.net/~ubuntumembers</A> ), which is a superset of the +</I>><i> various groups. There is 160 people who can upload to Universe ( ie, +</I>><i> their version of what mandriva called "contribs" ) +</I>><i> ( <A HREF="https://launchpad.net/~universe-contributors">https://launchpad.net/~universe-contributors</A> ), and there was 970 who +</I>><i> subscribed to have their packages reviewed +</I>><i> ( <A HREF="https://launchpad.net/~revu-uploaders">https://launchpad.net/~revu-uploaders</A> ). +</I>><i> +</I>><i> When you compare to the 3000 people who committed to gnome since the +</I>><i> beggining ( source, gnome census of Dave Neary ), the 500 currently +</I>><i> active contributers of kde +</I>><i> ( <A HREF="http://www.kdenews.org/2009/07/14/growth-metrics-kde-contributors">http://www.kdenews.org/2009/07/14/growth-metrics-kde-contributors</A> ) or +</I>><i> the 700 who contributed to 2.6.20 ( <A HREF="http://lwn.net/Articles/222773/">http://lwn.net/Articles/222773/</A> ), +</I>><i> you see the number are not much different. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> So while they may be small in term of market of users, they are the one +</I>><i> who successfully attracted some of the biggest community of +</I>><i> contributers. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> And attracting contributors is the key of the sustainability we should +</I>><i> aim. +</I>><i> +</I>>>><i> +</I>>>><i> My own opinion is that Canonical pay 5 people full time to take care of +</I>>>><i> the community growth +</I>>>><i> ( <A HREF="http://www.jonobacon.org/2010/07/26/the-five-horsemen/">http://www.jonobacon.org/2010/07/26/the-five-horsemen/</A> ), and that's +</I>>>><i> the main reason for contribution from outsiders. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Tsk a badly dressed marketing team ;) +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Nope. +</I>><i> The team of Jono have been quite concerned with organisation ( see the +</I>><i> various track at UDS ), they produced some code to help on various level +</I>><i> ( acire, python-snippet ), wrote some documentations ( for the various +</I>><i> community process ) and they also try to act as mediator ( see Jono +</I>><i> book, chapter 9 ) when there is a conflict. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> This IMHO exceed the scope of a marketing team. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>>><i> I'm not denying that marketing to +</I>>><i> bring in Code Contributors is a necessary thing and in fact we've already +</I>>><i> identified this group as our initial, primary target market, however the fact +</I>>><i> that Ubuntu is high profile out in the market place gives Jono and crew a hell +</I>>><i> of a lot more leverage to bring in new talent. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> They do not seem to attract so much new talent, if we look at the +</I>><i> metrics I gave before. Or at least, they are not more successful that +</I>><i> Fedora or Gentoo ( back in the day when Gentoo was all the rage, some +</I>><i> years ago in 2005 ). Of course, they are more successful than we were in +</I>><i> Mandriva, so that's not bad either. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>>>><i> The same goes for +</I>>>><i> Fedora and Redhat +</I>>>><i> ( <A HREF="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CommunityArchitecture">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CommunityArchitecture</A> ) +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> It's interesting that you point to that URL, I'm a big believer in the Biology +</I>>><i> of Community that the Fedora guys talk about. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> The principle idea behind it is that once a community reaches a critical mass +</I>>><i> it becomes self sustaining, in the case of the Mageia community that would be +</I>>><i> the point where you could remove all of the founders from the mix and it would +</I>>><i> keep going. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> To me that requires a whole community, it is a holistic beast. Yes you can +</I>>><i> continue a community that rides on the coat tails of a single person or core +</I>>><i> group but is it self sustaining. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> Fedora has reached this point I think and would continue if RedHat was removed +</I>>><i> from the equation. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Time may tell us sooner than we think. +</I>><i> +</I>>><i> Would Ubuntu continue without Shuttleworth and Canonical, +</I>>><i> I'm not sure, but I reckon they are a long way toward it. OOo wasn't, but +</I>>><i> LibreOffice has the opportunity to be. Debian, I don't know the community +</I>>><i> well enough to comment. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> There was a point were the Debian infrastructure was almost forked some +</I>><i> years ago, according to a story I heard in Zurich ( but I do not have +</I>><i> public source ). And there was also the old rumors of a Debian fork in +</I>><i> 2003 ( <A HREF="http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2003/08/msg00389.html">http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2003/08/msg00389.html</A> ), +</I>><i> which may have lead or be fueled by the creation of Ubuntu at that time. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>>><i> The point is that community goes right across the spectrum of users +</I>>><i> Not enough of the community at the User end of the spectrum is as untenable as +</I>>><i> not enough at the Makers end. The trick is balance, that's what the Fedora +</I>>><i> project has taught us +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Then the balance decided by Fedora is not really in favor of people in +</I>><i> the User end, if we look at this interview : +</I>><i> <A HREF="http://howsoftwareisbuilt.com/2008/12/21/interview-with-jeroen-van-meeuwen-fedora-project-vice-president-fedora-emea/">http://howsoftwareisbuilt.com/2008/12/21/interview-with-jeroen-van-meeuwen-fedora-project-vice-president-fedora-emea/</A> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> "Jeroen: One of the big, essential differences between Fedora and other +</I>><i> distributions is that we’d rather gain one contributor than a dozen +</I>><i> users. In fact, if I could lose 1000 users right now and gain a +</I>><i> contributor, I’d do it. It’s not up to me, but if it were, I’d do it." +</I>><i> +</I> +Thanks Michael for this insightful post. I found most interesting the +numbers of contributors working on different distros and as usual the +call to attract more contributors to the Mageia project which I can tell +you is finally sinking in with some of us. + +We are hearing you (contributors) and are listening. + +Marc + +</PRE> + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002504.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002491.html">[Mageia-discuss] Positive Reinforcement +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2523">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2523">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2523">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2523">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> |