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diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20110127/002348.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20110127/002348.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..5fc3f410e --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20110127/002348.html @@ -0,0 +1,184 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] Java-Policy first draft published + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Java-Policy%20first%20draft%20published&In-Reply-To=%3C1296099558.3567.143.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002346.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002351.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] Java-Policy first draft published</H1> + <B>Michael Scherer</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20Java-Policy%20first%20draft%20published&In-Reply-To=%3C1296099558.3567.143.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] Java-Policy first draft published">misc at zarb.org + </A><BR> + <I>Thu Jan 27 04:39:18 CET 2011</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002346.html">[Mageia-dev] Java-Policy first draft published +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002351.html">[Mageia-dev] the state of perl rebuild +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2348">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2348">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2348">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2348">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Le jeudi 27 janvier 2011 à 02:40 +0100, piep a écrit : +><i> Refection about Java_Packaging_Policy : what about a jpackage project +</I>><i> for mageia java based rpm ? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> like others I am still a "padawan" packager, but I also plan to work on +</I>><i> java (and music) packages +</I>><i> +</I>><i> I follow this thread with interest for few days and I wonder why nobody +</I>><i> thinks to just import java packages from jpackage repositories ? +</I> +Because we already use their rpms. And that's a complex mess of +dependencies, with unneeded complexity. + +For example, if you look at +<A HREF="svn://svn.mageia.org/packages/cauldron/jakarta-commons-lang/current/SPECS/jakarta-commons-lang.spec">svn://svn.mageia.org/packages/cauldron/jakarta-commons-lang/current/SPECS/jakarta-commons-lang.spec</A> +, you can see +1) the copyright of jpackage ( hence my point, but check any java +package ) +2) it support gcj and non gcj ( ie twice the work if we want to test ) +3) a weird release ( 2.3.4 ) + +4) various %post that should have been converted to trigger ( but since +it is not uniform on all distro, they prefered to cut and paste ). + +Another issue is they package several version of the same software +( like 5 releases of groovy, 3 versions of junit , etc ). This is +something requires more ressources. + +><i> 1) For many years jpackage.org project provides strong rpm packages of +</I>><i> java based applications. These packages are used on the professional +</I>><i> platform : Red Hat Enterprise Linux. +</I> +Last time I remember, people from Jpackage were not happy because RHEL +people took their rpms and integrated them in Fedora. So I think people +on RHEL use RH rpm, not the one from jpackage. + +><i> Despite the arguments why Mandriva developers left the jpackage project +</I>><i> to build their own java packages. +</I>><i> <A HREF="http://wiki.mandriva.com/en/Java_Packaging_Policy#Compatibility_with_proprietary_Java_stacks">http://wiki.mandriva.com/en/Java_Packaging_Policy#Compatibility_with_proprietary_Java_stacks</A> +</I> +Well, what is not written there is the java stack of Mandriva was done +mainly by David Walluck, who is .. a jpackage member. And jpackage was +also partially founded by Guillaume Rousse, who also left the project +because they were aiming for too complex and unmaintainable goals. + +After David was hired by RH, Alexander Kurtakov stepped to maintain, to +be also hired by RH. The only Ansii fixed some stuff, mainly because he +needed to do. + +><i> We are at the beginning of a new rpm based distribution. It would be +</I>><i> stupid and suicidal to work on our own java packages and reinvent the +</I>><i> wheel again and again. +</I> +No, what would be suicidal is to keep the current java packages, done by +jpackage whose goal do not correspond to ours. + +We are using the jpackage rpms, check the specs. So if we do have +problem in rebuilding the rpms, using more jpackage rpm do not seems +like a solution, except if the problem is "We have too much free time". + + +><i> If we want Mageia becomes a major distribution on +</I>><i> java application servers also, we have to consider jpackage as source of +</I>><i> java packages. Then we can concentrate our java packagers to improve the +</I>><i> "time to market" of jpackage applications and on desktop application +</I>><i> (tuxguitar, sweethome3d, JOSM, homeplayer etc..) and all java +</I>><i> application that lack in jpackage and why not try to provide them to +</I>><i> jpackage. +</I> +Personally, I do not want Mageia to become a major distribution on java +application servers, I want it to be sustainable. And sustainability as +clearly demonstrated by previous attempts is quite difficult to achieve +by using jpackage rpm. So let's start simple, we will have the time to +grow later. + +Java was a weak point on Mandriva, and I think that seeing the problem +twice is enough to not want to see it a 3rd time. + +Their goals differ totally from ours. First, they still aim to be usable +on more than one platform, which usually mean "be unintegrated on every +platform". In practice, they seems to rather be "usable only on RHEL", +but well. There would be various technical issues, like keep specs in +synchronisation, etc, various organizational issues like not being able +to decide our policy without asking to people outside of our +organisation, or having to handle out of our svn packages, etc. + +So let's already take care of what we have. Once packager have +demonstrated that the 400 packages will not bitrot alone in the svn, +then we can start to think importing more IMHO. Pushing more rpm when +the foundation is not maintained is simply a bad idea, like constructing +a house on the sand. + +><i> 6) So why don't we consider "jpackage" with the new eye of a new distro +</I>><i> and consider it as an external java application repository like we +</I>><i> already use "plf" ? +</I>><i> Why don't we work closer with the jpackage team to improve the urpmi +</I>><i> connection ? +</I> +PLF was mainly done by mandrake linux people aiming to integrate with +mandrake linux, and quickly shared src.rpm, followed mandriva policies, +contributed to Mandriva, etc. + +Jpackage was made based on the (IMHO flawed) assumption that the only +issue that prevented packages sharing was "binary compatibility", and +that it was solved by jvm. Both affirmation are quite wrong, as there is +lots of others problem to solve ( like rpm version, various choices made +by distribution based on their policy ). + +So why don't we consider with the new eye of a new distro ? Because we +are not a new distro, made by people with new eyes, we are experienced +people ( at least, I consider myself as experienced ), trying to keep +what worked of a older distro, and changed what didn't. + +We already tried syncing with jpackage, either by offering their rpm on +mandrake mirrors ( circa 2004 ), or by importing them ( circa +2007/2008 ). It didn't worked as well as you seem to think. And now, if +it work fine on RHEL, that's mainly because that's tested on RHEL only +( as almost everybody there is having a @redhat.com email ). + +-- +Michael Scherer + +</PRE> + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002346.html">[Mageia-dev] Java-Policy first draft published +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002351.html">[Mageia-dev] the state of perl rebuild +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2348">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2348">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2348">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2348">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> |