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authorNicolas Vigier <boklm@mageia.org>2013-04-14 13:46:12 +0000
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+ <TITLE> [Mageia-webteam] [Bug 1956] Can not edit posts in forum (after timeout)
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+ <H1>[Mageia-webteam] [Bug 1956] Can not edit posts in forum (after timeout)</H1>
+ <B>Barry Jackson</B>
+ <A HREF="mailto:mageia-webteam%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-webteam%5D%20%5BBug%201956%5D%20Can%20not%20edit%20posts%20in%20forum%20%28after%0A%09timeout%29&In-Reply-To=%3C20110705230758.9C9BB432C4%40alamut.mageia.org%3E"
+ TITLE="[Mageia-webteam] [Bug 1956] Can not edit posts in forum (after timeout)">bugzilla-daemon at mageia.org
+ </A><BR>
+ <I>Wed Jul 6 01:07:58 CEST 2011</I>
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+<PRE><A HREF="https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1956">https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1956</A>
+
+--- Comment #14 from Barry Jackson &lt;<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-webteam">zen25000 at zen.co.uk</A>&gt; 2011-07-06 01:07:58 CEST ---
+(In reply to comment #13)
+
+&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Then let's see if we can do better here with objective arguments.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>That would be good - but if nothing will be done after then it's a waste of
+time.
+&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt; &gt; and little or no consideration of the utility of the Forum as a research resource
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt; &gt; for users and of the fact that this limit can make life difficult for those people
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt; &gt; who spend time providing assistance to other users.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; Exactly
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> On the contrary : BIG consideration was given to this point. But these special
+</I>&gt;<i> users that are helping others on a regular basis are not common users.
+</I>
+Yes, in most cases they are.
+
+&gt;<i> As packagers or translators, or sysadmin are not common users either. All
+</I>&gt;<i> follow
+</I>&gt;<i> mentoring process and are given the proper privileges once they have been
+</I>&gt;<i> considered ready to do their jobs without help or control...
+</I>
+You misunderstand forums - regular users helping each other.
+
+&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Users that write tutorials or that helps others on a regular basis can be
+</I>&gt;<i> granted the proper privileges to edit own posts or other posts without
+</I>&gt;<i> limitation.
+</I>
+Oh boy - this just gets worse.
+
+&gt;<i> (Well for this point of posts needing permanent edition like
+</I>&gt;<i> tutorials... see later doc-tool part which is a discussion)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> But on a default basis no-one with common sense would give root password on the
+</I>&gt;<i> servers or allow Mr Unknown to push whatever package he wants to the official
+</I>&gt;<i> repositories... well on a less critical context users privileges on official
+</I>&gt;<i> forums need obviously to follow similar scheme as other teams.
+</I>
+Well, anyone can edit the wiki
+
+&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Roughy :
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> =&gt; Read only of topics for everybody (opensource way)
+</I>&gt;<i> =&gt; Comment / Create topics for common subscribers
+</I>&gt;<i> =&gt; More privileges for active forums contributors (like people helping others
+</I>&gt;<i> on a regular basis or writing tutorials, or packagers that make the effort to
+</I>&gt;<i> come to help users...) privileges that can vary depending of contributors
+</I>&gt;<i> needs/activities.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt; You have to distinguish the forum-as-a-discussion-place (where keeping posts in
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt; their original form is crucial) and the forum-as-a-support/doc-tool-place
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt; (where obsoleting/updating posts, with update timestamps is crucial as well).
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt; Both have their own contingencies and may be best served by distinct platform
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt; (the former is more in phpBB's original purpose, the latter more in an
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt; equivalent to <A HREF="http://stackoverflow.com/">http://stackoverflow.com/</A> platform).
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt; If those are to be served by the same platform, that makes several use cases to
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt; satisfy. And here obviously, the forum was first thought as a discussion
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt; platform.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; Well no actually :-
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; <A HREF="http://www.mageia.org/en/support/">http://www.mageia.org/en/support/</A>
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; This shows the forum as primarily a &quot;support forum&quot; not as a discussion place.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> There is njon contradiction there : Many projects use bugtrackers like Buzilla
+</I>&gt;<i> as a support system (others use mailing lists or Sourceforge/Savannah embedded
+</I>&gt;<i> miniforums). All those don't allow late edition. And very few consider that
+</I>&gt;<i> abnormal :)
+</I>
+I'm not concerned with those. This is about the Mageia users forum.
+
+&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Support IS discussion and nothing more :)
+</I>&gt;<i> but at the moment the forum is (i confirm) more thought
+</I>&gt;<i> as a discussion/support platform thant a doc/tool/publication one.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> (We can also consider to change this during discussions)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt; So you may of course argue of the contrary, but arguing won't lead as far as
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt; really giving a hand, joining the team and helping to better configure the
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt; team, the platform, and if needed, a distinct platform.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; By reporting this bug the intention was to give a hand at improving the forum
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; by making the job of those prepared to help and offer support easier.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Well, at the moment if you have a true need to edit your posts because they
+</I>&gt;<i> look like
+</I>&gt;<i> tiny tutos/guides/howtos and because you prefer to work on the forum for these
+</I>&gt;<i> publication
+</I>&gt;<i> we can start an experimentation with you (specific user role like tutorial
+</I>&gt;<i> writer and/or specific
+</I>&gt;<i> forum area with a name to be defined) and see if the result is positive / users
+</I>&gt;<i> feedback...
+</I>
+No thanks - I would just like this bug fixed.
+&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; Likewise with <A HREF="https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1188">https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1188</A> which has also
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; fallen on stony ground.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> It did not...
+</I>
+Yes it did - no action has been taken.
+
+&gt;<i> but i'm not sure doing the reqested change bring more good than
+</I>&gt;<i> harm.
+</I>
+Again - just your decision.
+
+&gt;<i> (It can be reverted though if we have many users complainig and it will not put
+</I>&gt;<i> topic
+</I>&gt;<i> flow at risk on the contrary of edition privileges)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+Many users already spoke in that bug.
+And how on earth could a reply notification spoil topic flow - lack of one just
+ruins it as the people in the topic don't know that there has been an answer.
+
+&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> In my opinion it IS expected behavior : if you push words to the world (IRL
+</I>&gt;<i> speaking, or in mail or ir instant messaging) noone could expect to be able to
+</I>&gt;<i> get back in the future to erase the said words.
+</I>
+I give up... sigh
+
+&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> In a forum if you say something and that people refer to it later in the topic
+</I>&gt;<i> (or elsewhere in personal blogs or bugtrackers or whatever) They expect the
+</I>&gt;<i> targeted post not to change because if it changes drastically their answers
+</I>&gt;<i> would loose sense. And that is not what one should expect.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+Well I do expect it - and if I change something I make it obvious and also
+consider the impact on following posts.
+
+&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; This bug report is not about politics but simply about the time limit on the
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; editing of posts.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; Can we put the politics to one side and discuss just the bug please?
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Then you have technical and objective arguments on the matter itself here :)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> And for the &quot;valid&quot; reasons you gave :
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> (In reply to comment #0)
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; There are many valid reasons why it may be necessary to edit a post.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; 1. It imparts incorrect information.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> It could also allow to break valid information (think for example of spammers
+</I>&gt;<i> that could post unharmful links like screenshots with basic user question then
+</I>&gt;<i> change them 3 weeks later to push viagra or whatever)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+Now that's what mods are for.
+
+&gt;<i> &gt; 2. The information is out of date.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> For this a later post is a better way because a big change on out of date
+</I>&gt;<i> information would result in many posts making no sense (like &quot;hey the link is
+</I>&gt;<i> broken : here is the good one&quot;).
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+That depends on the person making the change having some sense - something
+which you seem to feel that no one else has.
+
+&gt;<i> Further, sometimes the date can be still valid for some users or some versions
+</I>&gt;<i> of software (think that people don't always follow the update rythm... changing
+</I>&gt;<i> the data to match new versions would deprivate them from the original post
+</I>&gt;<i> which is what they need)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+Not always.
+
+&gt;<i> For that editors discipline is the only solution (choosing between new post
+</I>&gt;<i> and/or update with a proper changelog so that users can know that the post was
+</I>&gt;<i> edited when and why...)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+Exactly - so where is the problem?
+
+&gt;<i> And we would not expect such discipline from every user...
+</I>
+Here we go again - users are idiots - we must protect the world from them -
+attitude.
+
+&gt;<i> so we come back to
+</I>&gt;<i> mentoring process and dedicated privileges for users that will play by the
+</I>&gt;<i> rules...
+</I>
+So now I need mentoring to use a forum in the way that I have used it in
+Mandriva for the last 2-3 years?
+
+&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; 3. A minor edit would improve comprehension.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> For tutorials and things like that yes... but do we want forums to host such
+</I>&gt;<i> pieces of valuable information ? (See wiki vs forums discussion here above)
+</I>
+Again - anyone can edit a wiki without mentoring
+
+&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> For discussions : better explain later so that posts of users asking for
+</I>&gt;<i> precision do not loose sense.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; In all these cases it is not appropriate to add another post to offer a
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; correction as it may be several pages from the original post, also the
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; incorrect post would still be available to be read.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt;
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Well as said above, it is often better to have access to the original post
+</I>&gt;<i> (wich is not necessarily &quot;incorrect&quot;) so that the logic flow of the following
+</I>&gt;<i> post is not broken. (Again: except for reference posts like tutos).
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+Again, users are quite capable of deciding what is appropriate.
+
+&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; Forum posts are searched and used to solve problems in a similar way to the
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; wiki.
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; Imagine the author not being able to edit a wiki entry.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> Yes but we DO HAVE a wiki and the forum is not necessarily supposed to compete
+</I>&gt;<i> with it... if you try to push the idea of having long life piece of information
+</I>&gt;<i> on the forum you'll have to pass over the dead bodies of wikis advocates :o)
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>
+Users are always pushed to search the forum for the answer to a problem before
+posting - what are they looking for if it's not information?
+
+&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; BTW I tried to get a post modified by reporting it to the mods with clear
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; instructions about what needed changing and it's now at 3 days and counting
+</I>&gt;<i> &gt; with no response.
+</I>&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> You have had your post modified... there is still a mod we to finish (because
+</I>&gt;<i> nothin fit our needs for that) to accelerate processing of reports. Once done
+</I>&gt;<i> you'll wait far less.
+</I>
+Thank you, yes and it did not cause any of the supposedly negative issues that
+you raised earlier, and neither would it if I had done it myself.
+
+&gt;<i>
+</I>&gt;<i> And for making a topic as Sloved a mod is also on it's way : so no need for
+</I>&gt;<i> edition on this aspect :)
+</I>
+And will you be able to un-solve it as well if the problem re-appears, as can
+often be the case?
+
+--
+Configure bugmail: <A HREF="https://bugs.mageia.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email">https://bugs.mageia.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email</A>
+------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
+You are the assignee for the bug.
+</PRE>
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
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