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<H1>[Mageia-dev] [RFC] radeon firmware in non-free</H1>
<B>Thomas Backlund</B>
<A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20%5BRFC%5D%20radeon%20firmware%20in%20non-free&In-Reply-To=%3C4FC5EC71.8030800%40mageia.org%3E"
TITLE="[Mageia-dev] [RFC] radeon firmware in non-free">tmb at mageia.org
</A><BR>
<I>Wed May 30 11:46:25 CEST 2012</I>
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<PRE>30.05.2012 12:23, Thierry Vignaud skrev:
><i> On 30 May 2012 11:09, Thomas Backlund<<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">tmb at mageia.org</A>> wrote:
</I>>>><i> I think we must discuss the following point for next release:
</I>>>><i> currently radeon firmwares are in non-free.
</I>>>><i>
</I>>>><i> However this break havoc quite a lot of install b/c by default
</I>>>><i> non-free is not enabled.
</I>>><i>
</I>>><i> So its an installer issue.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> No it's a policy issue.
</I>><i> media.cfg enforces not installing firmwares by default.
</I>><i> But builders of live cds overrides this.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> Which is inconsistent
</I>><i>
</I>
Well, it was a old design decision we followed for livecds...
><i> Maybe should we split firmwares in another medium that should:
</I>><i> - be enabled by default
</I>><i> - be included in the install ISOs
</I>><i>
</I>>>><i> 1) This makes the Mageia experience horrible on some machines
</I>>>><i> (black screen, machines unusable by newbies (and worse
</I>>>><i> unrecoverable by newbies), ...)
</I>>>><i> Newer ATI/AMD cards cannot work w/o the needed firmware.
</I>>>><i> That's also the issue with several network cards.
</I>>>><i> (which makes network installation impossible by default)
</I>>><i>
</I>>><i>
</I>>><i>
</I>>><i> So people should think twice about what hw they want to buy/use.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> Come on you're trolling.
</I>><i> What's more, _YOU_ are the one building live cds with proprietary drivers... :-)
</I>><i>
</I>
Well, I have no problem dropping them from livecds again as I can use
the space...
It did work for mga1 (as there were no prebuilt proprietary drivers then)
><i> That is totally inconsistent.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> Other distros either use proprietary drivers or free drivers with the
</I>><i> needed firmwares.
</I>><i> We do the first (live-cd) and the worst of all choices: free drivers
</I>><i> w/o the needed firmwares (install ISO)
</I>><i>
</I>>>><i> 2) this is unlike the live-cd where we've those firmwares (and
</I>>>><i> the proprietary drivers as well)
</I>>>><i>
</I>>><i>
</I>>><i> This is because you cant install rpms on live media...
</I>>><i> (or you can, but as the change is gone with a reboot,
</I>>><i> there is not much point)
</I>><i>
</I>><i> Yet it is inconsistent.
</I>><i>
</I>>>><i> 3) This is unlike other "pure" FOSS distro such as Fedora
</I>>>><i> which includes the firmwares.
</I>>><i>
</I>>><i>
</I>>><i>
</I>>><i> Well, that's their choice, not ours...
</I>><i>
</I>><i> Offering the choice between working proprietary drivers
</I>><i> and NOT working free drivers is somewhat stupid don't you think?
</I>><i>
</I>
So we need to fix the hw/driver detection/switching and not just
"paper over" it by pulling nonfree stuff by default
><i>
</I>>>><i> So we offer the choice between:
</I>>>><i> - either be able to choose between working proprietary driver and
</I>>>><i> working free driver
</I>>>><i> - or to have non working free driver
</I>>>><i> This is _INSANE_.
</I>>>><i>
</I>>>><i> I think It's time we reconsider this.
</I>>>><i>
</I>>>><i> Firmwares do not run on the main CPU.
</I>>>><i> They're needed for additional chips where no one will ever
</I>>>><i> ever write a program for.
</I>>>>><i>
</I>>>>><i> From the main CPU/memory view point they're data.
</I>>><i>
</I>>><i>
</I>>><i>
</I>>><i> But not from our perspective about free-only.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> Then why do you promote proprietary drivers on live cds :-) ?
</I>><i> Again this is totally inconsistent...
</I>><i>
</I>
So I guess we need to fix livecds by either dropping proprietary
stuff, or make the display_driver_helper ask if user wants to
boot with proprietary stuff or not...
><i> And nobody will ever wrote an alternative firmware anyway...
</I>><i> And in most cases, nobody knows how the internal works.
</I>><i> And for the AMD/ATI case, the free driver won't pick directly at the
</I>><i> hardware but will use AtomBIOS to level differences between
</I>><i> hw (remember the radeonhd fiasco).
</I>><i>
</I>><i> Who will rewrite the AMD firmwares for all radeon generations
</I>><i> and/or make the driver work without Atom BIOS ??
</I>><i> Come on...
</I>><i>
</I>><i> What we're actually promoting to our end users is that free drivers
</I>><i> suck whereas the live cds with proprietary drivers works smoothly.
</I>><i>
</I>
Again, this is hw specific.
There is Intel, nouveau, sis,... that does not need fw/proprietary drivers.
><i> That's a total aberration regarding promoting FOSS
</I>
Well, it's also a simple truth/fact.
Not all hw is fully FOSS supported.
><i>
</I>>>><i> I think we should offer the choice to:
</I>>>><i> - either be able to choose between working proprietary driver and
</I>>>><i> working free driver
</I>>>><i> - or to have _working_ free driver
</I>>>><i> (that is including the needed firmwares)
</I>>>><i>
</I>>><i>
</I>>><i> As pointed out in earlier discussions about this issue...
</I>>><i>
</I>>><i> There is 2 points needing fix.
</I>>><i>
</I>>><i> - the installer should detect the need for nonfree, and ask if people
</I>>><i> want to enable it. (or simply ask if user want to add nonfree media)
</I>><i>
</I>><i> I'm actually planning to add a media screen in cauldron installer so that
</I>><i> one can enable/disable media.
</I>><i>
</I>
Great.
><i> But that needs to actually include a nonfree/release subset on the install
</I>><i> ISO so that those w/o network can enable it.
</I>><i>
</I>
Or ask for additional media pointed out below.
><i> Detecting need for non-free could then be done (looking at modinfo
</I>><i> output for needed modules)
</I>><i>
</I>>><i> - the other thing to fix is to change the installer option about
</I>>><i> "additional CD" to "additional media" and allow for browsing for
</I>>><i> additional rpms on a cd/dvd/disk/usb/... media.
</I>
--
Thomas
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