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<H1>[Mageia-dev] [lsb-discuss] [fedora-arm] ARM summit at Plumbers 2011</H1>
<B>keld at keldix.com</B>
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TITLE="[Mageia-dev] [lsb-discuss] [fedora-arm] ARM summit at Plumbers 2011">keld at keldix.com
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<I>Fri Aug 26 23:36:41 CEST 2011</I>
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<PRE>I would relly like the dscussion to go on widely as it is now.
Otherwise I would probably not follow this interesting discussion.
best regards
keld
On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 10:02:09PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
><i> russell, good to hear from you.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> can i recommend, that although this is a really wide set of
</I>><i> cross-posting on a discussion that underpins pretty much everything
</I>><i> (except gnu/hurd and minix) because it's linux kernel, that, just as
</I>><i> steve kindly advised, we keep this to e.g.
</I>><i> <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">cross-distro at lists.linaro.org</A>? i'll be doing that from now on [after
</I>><i> this] perhaps including arm-netbooks as well, but will be taking off
</I>><i> all the distros.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> so - folks, let's be clear: please move this discussion to
</I>><i> <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">cross-distro at lists.linaro.org</A>, and, if it's worthwhile discussing in
</I>><i> person, please do contact steve, so he can keep the slot open at the
</I>><i> Plumbers 2011 summit.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 5:35 PM, Russell King - ARM Linux
</I>><i> <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">linux at arm.linux.org.uk</A>> wrote:
</I>><i> > On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:11:41AM -0500, Bill Gatliff wrote:
</I>><i> >> As such refactoring consolidated larger and larger chunks of kernel
</I>><i> >> code, new designs would gravitate towards those consolidated
</I>><i> >> implementations because they would be the dominant references.
</I>><i> >
</I>><i> > Don't bet on it. ??That's not how it works (unfortunately.)
</I>><i> >
</I>><i> > Just look at the many serial port inventions dreamt up by SoC designers -
</I>><i> > everyone is different from each other. ??Now consider: why didn't they use
</I>><i> > a well established standard 16550A or later design?
</I>><i>
</I>><i> *sigh* because they wanted to save power. or pins. or... just be
</I>><i> bloody-minded.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> > This "need to be different" is so heavily embedded in the mindset of the
</I>><i> > hardware people that I doubt "providing consolidated implementations"
</I>><i> > will make the blind bit of difference.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> i think... russell... after they are told, repeatedly, "no, you can't
</I>><i> have that pile of junk in the mainline linux kernel, Get With The
</I>><i> Programme", you'd think that, cumulatively if they end up having to
</I>><i> maintain a 6mb patch full of such shit, they _might_ get with the
</I>><i> programme?
</I>><i>
</I>><i> and if they don't, well.... who honestly cares? if they don't, it's
</I>><i> not *your* problem, is it? _they_ pay their employees to continue to
</I>><i> main a pile of junk, instead of spongeing off of _your_ time (and
</I>><i> linus's, and everyone else's in the Free Software Community).
</I>><i>
</I>><i>
</I>><i> > ??I doubt that hardware people
</I>><i> > coming up with these abominations even care one bit about what's in
</I>><i> > the kernel.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> then don't f******g make it _your_ problem, or anyone else's, upstream!! :)
</I>><i>
</I>><i> this is the core of the proposal that i have been advocating: if it's
</I>><i> "selfish", i.e. as bill and many many others clearly agree with "if
</I>><i> the bang-per-buck ratio is on the low side" then keep it *out* the
</I>><i> mainline linux kernel...
</I>><i>
</I>><i> ... and that really is the end of the matter.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> the sensible people that i've been talking to about this are truly
</I>><i> puzzled as to why the principles of "cooperation and collaboration"
</I>><i> behind free software are just being... completely ignored, in
</I>><i> something as vital as The Linux Kernel, and they feel that it's really
</I>><i> blindingly obvious that the "bang-per-buck" ratio of patches to
</I>><i> mainline linux kernel need to go up.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> so the core of the proposal that is the proposed
</I>><i> "selfish-vs-cooperation patch policy" is quite simple: if the patch
</I>><i> has _some_ evidence of collaboration, cooperation, refactoring,
</I>><i> sharing - *anything* that increases the bang-per-buck ratio with
</I>><i> respect to the core fundamental principles of Free Software - it goes
</I>><i> to the next phase [which is technical evaluation etc. etc.].
</I>><i> otherwise, it's absolutely out, regardless of its technical
</I>><i> correctness, and that's the end of it.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> the linux kernel mainline source tree should *not* be a
</I>><i> dumping-ground for a bunch of selfish self-centred pathological
</I>><i> profit-mongering corporations whose employees end up apologising in
</I>><i> sheer embarrassment as they submit time-pressured absolutely shit
</I>><i> non-cooperative and impossible-to-maintain code.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> you're not the only one, russell, who is pissed off at having to tidy
</I>><i> up SoC vendors' patches. there's another ARM-Linux guy, forget his
</I>><i> name, specialises in samsung: two years ago he said that he was
</I>><i> getting fed up with receiving yet another pile of rushed junk... and
</I>><i> that's *just* him, specialising in samsung ARM SoCs!
</I>><i>
</I>><i> we're just stunned that you, the recipient of _multiple_ SoC vendors
</I>><i> piles of shite, have tolerated this for so long!
</I>><i>
</I>><i> anyway - i've endeavoured to put together some examples, in case
</I>><i> that's not clear: i admit it's quite hard to create clear examples,
</I>><i> and would greatly appreciate help doing so. i've had some very much
</I>><i> appreciated help from one of the openwrt developers (thanks!)
</I>><i> clarifying by creating another example that's similar to one which
</I>><i> wasn't clear.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> <A HREF="http://lkcl.net/linux/linux-selfish.vs.cooperation.html">http://lkcl.net/linux/linux-selfish.vs.cooperation.html</A>
</I>><i>
</I>><i> this should be _fun_, guys. it shouldn't be a chore. if you're not
</I>><i> enjoying it, and not being paid, tell the people who are clearly
</I>><i> taking the piss to f*** off!
</I>><i>
</I>><i> but - i also would like to underscore this with another idea: "lead
</I>><i> by example" (which is why i've kept the large cross-distro list) we -
</I>><i> the free software community - are seeing tons of nice lovely android
</I>><i> tablets, tons of nice lovely expensive bits of big iron and/or x86
</I>><i> laptops, and only in very small areas (OpenRD Ultimate, GuruPlug,
</I>><i> Pandaboard, IMX53QSB, Origen) are our needs for actual hardware which
</I>><i> _we_ want (and i'm *not* being presumptious here - i'm inviting people
</I>><i> to *say* what they want) just aren't being met.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> who wants a bloody 800x600 VIA VunnnderMedia ARM9 350mhz tablet, to
</I>><i> do linux kernel and gnu/linux distribution development on, _anyway_???
</I>><i> and who the hell wants only 512mb of RAM (iMX51). and who in their
</I>><i> right fucking mind dreamed up that 1024x600 LCD panel size?
</I>><i>
</I>><i> so here's what i propose:
</I>><i>
</I>><i> we, The Free Software Community, want Our Figureheads (linus, bruce,
</I>><i> alan, russell) to call us to arms (so to speak), to band together a la
</I>><i> KickStarter <A HREF="http://kickstarter.org">http://kickstarter.org</A> (or other), so that we can create
</I>><i> the hardware platform(s) that *we* want, and, in the process, can take
</I>><i> the opportunity to sort out the Linux Kernel mainline tree in the
</I>><i> process (learning by doing, doing by leading, leading by example etc.
</I>><i> etc.)
</I>><i>
</I>><i> apart from anything - and this goes to you, linus and russell - i
</I>><i> think that you would be much happier taking a break from doing git
</I>><i> patch conflict management, _actually_ getting down and dirty with some
</I>><i> real device driver writing, and i think you'd be much happier doing
</I>><i> that knowing that the device you were writing those kernel drivers for
</I>><i> was something that actual real free software developers really really
</I>><i> wanted.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> now, as i said above: i don't _dare_ to presume that i know what
</I>><i> actual real free software developers want, in terms of hardware, but
</I>><i> there's a small sampling on the debian-arm mailing list... let me drop
</I>><i> you roughly in the middle of it, here:
</I>><i> <A HREF="http://lists.debian.org/debian-arm/2011/08/msg00045.html">http://lists.debian.org/debian-arm/2011/08/msg00045.html</A> mostly that
</I>><i> was focussed around those little engineering boards (panda, IMX53QSB,
</I>><i> origen etc.) but my aim here is to get people to think:
</I>><i>
</I>><i> what hardware, which is fully free-software-compliant, that you would
</I>><i> buy and recommend to others, that could also be attractive in
</I>><i> mass-volume, do _you_ want to see, that would be useful to _you_?
</I>><i>
</I>><i> i'm getting fed up of seeing stuff come out of factories that's
</I>><i> completely useless. or gpl-violating. and/or requires
</I>><i> reverse-engineering.
</I>><i> <A HREF="http://lkcl.net/linux/ideal-vs-reality.of.product.development.html">http://lkcl.net/linux/ideal-vs-reality.of.product.development.html</A> for
</I>><i> some background.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> as a free software developer, what hardware do YOU want?
</I>><i>
</I>><i> answers on this one to <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">arm-netbooks at lists.phcomp.co.uk</A> (subscription
</I>><i> required, please remember)
</I>><i>
</I>><i> and, lastly - linus, russell, alan, bruce: there are people out there
</I>><i> who would really appreciate if you could take up this call. not just
</I>><i> me. we'd like to see you using your skills, and actually be happy and
</I>><i> enjoy doing nitty-gritty linux kernel development, to the benefit of
</I>><i> the free software community, instead of turning into patch
</I>><i> junkies^H^H^H^H^H^Hmonkeys^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hmanagers.
</I>><i>
</I>><i> l.
</I>><i> _______________________________________________
</I>><i> lsb-discuss mailing list
</I>><i> <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">lsb-discuss at lists.linux-foundation.org</A>
</I>><i> <A HREF="https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lsb-discuss">https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lsb-discuss</A>
</I></PRE>
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