[Mageia-webteam] [Bug 1956] Can not edit posts in forum (after timeout)

Sun Jul 3 18:23:38 CEST 2011

https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1956
+
+Maat <maat-ml at vilarem.net> changed:
+
+           What    |Removed                     |Added
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------
+                 CC|                            |maat-ml at vilarem.net
+
+--- Comment #13 from Maat <maat-ml at vilarem.net> 2011-07-03 20:23:39 CEST ---
+(In reply to comment #8)
+> As I saw it the discussion on the real issue was minimal and the "decision" was
+> pushed without any proper agreement. 
+> 
+
+Then let's see if we can do better here with objective arguments.
+
+
+> > > and little or no consideration of the utility of the Forum as a research resource
+> > > for users and of the fact that this limit can make life difficult for those people
+> > > who spend time providing assistance to other users.
+> 
+> Exactly
+>
+
+On the contrary : BIG consideration was given to this point. But these special
+users that are helping others on a regular basis are not common users. As
+packagers or translators, or sysadmin are not common users either. All follow
+mentoring process and are given the proper privileges once they have been
+considered ready to do their jobs without help or control...
+
+Users that write tutorials or that helps others on a regular basis can be
+granted the proper privileges to edit own posts or other posts without
+limitation. (Well for this point of posts needing permanent edition like
+tutorials... see later doc-tool part which is a discussion)
+
+But on a default basis no-one with common sense would give root password on the
+servers or allow Mr Unknown to push whatever package he wants to the official
+repositories... well on a less critical context users privileges on official
+forums need obviously to follow similar scheme as other teams.
+
+Roughy : 
+
+=> Read only of topics for everybody (opensource way)
+=> Comment / Create topics for common subscribers
+=> More privileges for active forums contributors (like people helping others
+on a regular basis or writing tutorials, or packagers that make the effort to
+come to help users...) privileges that can vary depending of contributors
+needs/activities.
+
+
+> > You have to distinguish the forum-as-a-discussion-place (where keeping posts in
+> > their original form is crucial) and the forum-as-a-support/doc-tool-place
+> > (where obsoleting/updating posts, with update timestamps is crucial as well).
+> > 
+> > Both have their own contingencies and may be best served by distinct platform
+> > (the former is more in phpBB's original purpose, the latter more in an
+> > equivalent to http://stackoverflow.com/ platform).
+> > 
+> > If those are to be served by the same platform, that makes several use cases to
+> > satisfy. And here obviously, the forum was first thought as a discussion
+> > platform.
+> 
+> Well no actually :-
+> http://www.mageia.org/en/support/ 
+> 
+> This shows the forum as primarily a "support forum" not as a discussion place.
+> 
+
+There is njon contradiction there : Many projects use bugtrackers like Buzilla
+as a support system (others use mailing lists or Sourceforge/Savannah embedded
+miniforums). All those don't allow late edition. And very few consider that
+abnormal :) 
+
+Support IS discussion and nothing more :)
+
+Considering it as a doc-tool place is another thing... very different indeed.
+
+This last point needs a proper and broader discussion because if you start
+considering the forum as a place where storing tutorial, guides, howtos and
+other things with a long lifetime you'll find wiki advocates on your way. And
+till we have that point settled i'll remain prudent on edition features
+activation and tutos/howtos/guides team building on the forum because that
+would put me in position of puching ball (and i'm not that fond of such
+roleplay).
+
+And to finish on that : we can separate discussions and permanent-doc-tool
+publication with the same phpbb platform (provided the wiki/forum discussion is
+properly dealt with)... but at the moment the forum is (i confirm) more thought
+as a discussion/support platform thant a doc/tool/publication one.
+
+(We can also consider to change this during discussions)
+
+> > 
+> > So you may of course argue of the contrary, but arguing won't lead as far as
+> > really giving a hand, joining the team and helping to better configure the
+> > team, the platform, and if needed, a distinct platform.
+> >
+> 
+> By reporting this bug the intention was to give a hand at improving the forum
+> by making the job of those prepared to help and offer support easier.
+
+Well, at the moment if you have a true need to edit your posts because they
+look like 
+tiny tutos/guides/howtos and because you prefer to work on the forum for these
+publication 
+we can start an experimentation with you (specific user role like tutorial
+writer and/or specific
+forum area with a name to be defined) and see if the result is positive / users
+feedback...
+
+> Likewise with https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1188 which has also
+> fallen on stony ground.
+> 
+
+It did not... but i'm not sure doing the reqested change bring more good than
+harm.
+(It can be reverted though if we have many users complainig and it will not put
+topic 
+flow at risk on the contrary of edition privileges)
+
+
+> > Furthermore, arguing of one's experience with forum is not that much helpful -
+> > some have satisfying experience with forums with no edit capacity, as that was
+> > an expected behaviour.
+> 
+> The whole point of this bug report is that this is NOT expected behaviour. Most
+> of the helpers in this forum come from Mandriva where the forum worked just
+> fine without any time limit.
+> 
+
+In my opinion it IS expected behavior : if you push words to the world (IRL
+speaking, or in mail or ir instant messaging) noone could expect to be able to
+get back in the future to erase the said words.
+
+In a forum if you say something and that people refer to it later in the topic
+(or elsewhere in personal blogs or bugtrackers or whatever) They expect the
+targeted post not to change because if it changes drastically their answers
+would loose sense. And that is not what one should expect.
+
+
+> This bug report is not about politics but simply about the time limit on the
+> editing of posts.
+> 
+> Can we put the politics to one side and discuss just the bug please?
+> 
+
+Then you have technical and objective arguments on the matter itself here :)
+
+And for the "valid" reasons you gave :
+
+(In reply to comment #0)
+> There are many valid reasons why it may be necessary to edit a post.
+> 
+> 1. It imparts incorrect information.
+
+It could also allow to break valid information (think for example of spammers
+that could post unharmful links like screenshots with basic user question then
+change them 3 weeks later to push viagra or whatever)
+
+> 2. The information is out of date.
+
+For this a later post is a better way because a big change on out of date
+information would result in many posts making no sense (like "hey the link is
+broken : here is the good one").
+
+Further, sometimes the date can be still valid for some users or some versions
+of software (think that people don't always follow the update rythm... changing
+the data to match new versions would deprivate them from the original post
+which is what they need)
+
+For that editors discipline is the only solution (choosing between new post
+and/or update with a proper changelog so that users can know that the post was
+edited when and why...)
+
+And we would not expect such discipline from every user... so we come back to
+mentoring process and dedicated privileges for users that will play by the
+rules...
+
+> 3. A minor edit would improve comprehension.
+> 
+
+For tutorials and things like that yes... but do we want forums to host such
+pieces of valuable information ? (See wiki vs forums discussion here above)
+
+For discussions : better explain later so that posts of users asking for
+precision do not loose sense.
+
+> In all these cases it is not appropriate to add another post to offer a
+> correction as it may be several pages from the original post, also the
+> incorrect post would still be available to be read.
+>
+
+Well as said above, it is often better to have access to the original post
+(wich is not necessarily "incorrect") so that the logic flow of the following
+post is not broken. (Again: except for reference posts like tutos).
+
+
+> Forum posts are searched and used to solve problems in a similar way to the
+> wiki.
+> Imagine the author not being able to edit a wiki entry.  
+
+Yes but we DO HAVE a wiki and the forum is not necessarily supposed to compete
+with it... if you try to push the idea of having long life piece of information
+on the forum you'll have to pass over the dead bodies of wikis advocates :o)
+
+
+> BTW I tried to get a post modified by reporting it to the mods with clear
+> instructions about what needed changing and it's now at 3 days and counting
+> with no response.
+
+You have had your post modified... there is still a mod we to finish (because
+nothin fit our needs for that) to accelerate processing of reports. Once done
+you'll wait far less.
+
+And for making a topic as Sloved a mod is also on it's way : so no need for
+edition on this aspect :)
+
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