[Mageia-discuss] [Cooker] Re: Transparency & open invitation to a united foundation..? [Was: forking mandriva]

Wed Sep 22 18:09:10 CEST 2010

2010/9/22 Jerome Quelin <jquelin at gmail.com>:
+> On 10/09/21 21:49 +0200, Per Řyvind Karlsen wrote:
+>> > You will leave your newborn in the "hands" of the same company whose
+>> > lack of direction caused this situation?
+>> >
+>> > Maybe I'm a "little" paranoid, but i think we should listen
+>> > ex-employes / developers. They know the sh*t from the very inside.
+>> Ah, yes, two ex-employees / developers which were actively involved
+>> with the development of the distribution over so many years.. Uh, oh,
+>> wait, no they weren't.
+>> I'm questioning whether they actually grasp all of the work required
+>> to put together a distribution. I also find it odd when I see
+>> statements from them on IRC which seems to be in conflict with others
+>> involved with this that they intend on going in a different direction
+>> independent of Mandriva. With all the people being brought aboard with
+>> Mageia from the Mandriva Linux community, I find it hard to believe
+>> that there has been established a consensus about this with all of the
+>> people involved and that they really want to do everything on their
+>> own and not care about keeping relations or anything with what they've
+>> been involved with on actual community basis and over longer times
+>> than either of these two..
+>
+> since you were not part of the discussion*s*, what you believe doesn't
+> really matter. i can tell you that there is a consensus to release a
+> community distribution. in fact, it was more of a consensus: it was the
+> stated goal around which the rest of the project was born.
+Interesting fact you point out there, why wasn't I part of it? Why was
+I excluded?
+Given my history of being one of the oldest and most active
+contributors, part of the assembly and being the main person behind
+the foundation proposal back in 2007 and actively pursuing it since, I
+even brought in an offer from someone to fund it and proposed this to
+the same people behind this fork, around the same time as when they
+started discussing it, and I wasn't just ignored, I was even
+considered a threath.
+
+It seems to be rather obvious why I wasn't part of the discussions and
+was intentionally excluded, just as it illustrates that the discussion
+didn't really involve the whole community.
+
+I anyways don't see why anything I believe about Mageia is of any less
+relevance than what you believe about Mandriva.
+>
+>
+>> Are you guys *really* planning on doing the whole distribution on your
+>> own totally independent of Mandriva without any interest of
+>> collaborating?
+>
+> yes. period.
+Your short, firm and decissive response to this obviously seems to
+lack any proper consensus or support from the community. Obviously you
+have something that you really need to work out..
+>
+>
+>> To me, these responses of Romain and Nicolas seems to confirm all the
+>> questions I raised earlier in this thread, suggesting that the fork
+>> and their motivations are personal and not out of concern and care for
+>> the community, despite these motivations officially given. I guess
+>> there's a reason for why they avoided these critical questions raised
+>> towards them, and rather chose to attack constructive attempts at
+>> doing what's in the best interest of the community in stead.
+>
+> i am just a contributor, who was part of the discussions before the
+> launch of mageia. i am not a former mandriva/edge-it employee, but yet i
+> totally agree with the various opinions stated here: currently, mandriva
+> (the society) has failed to properly communicate with the community.  we
+> were never aware of what was going on, what were the plans, what were
+> the goals, etc.
+???
+This doesn't relate at all to what you're replying to.
+>
+> please take that into account, and the frustration it created.
+>
+> now, do you really think that mandriva's ceo coming and saying "guys you
+> are right, let's create something together" is to be taken seriously?
+It's a response to an invitation to create something together with and
+to interest of everyone. If it's your desire to create something like
+this already, why would you not be interested? What ulteriour motives
+do you think would be hidden behinds this? If it's not serious, then
+what are the consequences you'd be fearing when it's something that
+wouldn't make you dependent on it, but rather getting support from it?
+Worst case scenario would be to not get the support you didn't expect
+for creating something.
+>
+> so, for now, i think that mageia should start alone. it might be more
+> difficult, but results will our owns, and what we'll manage to do from
+> this situation. and if mandriva is really gueniously interested in a
+> foundation, it will do whatever is needed to make sure mageia succeeds.
+> in one year from now, we'll have a better view on what's going on, and
+> if mandriva favors a real, independent community mentality (not to
+> mention the fact that nerves will have settle).
+>
+> that is: we will judge mandriva for what it's doing, not it's saying.
+> facts, not words.
+>
+>
+>> But sure, I've only been actively involved with the development of
+>> this *community* distribution and on several other levels for a decade
+>> now, being amongst those involved for the longest time, while also
+>> being an ex-employee myself, I've primarily been active through the
+>> community independent of my employment nor imposing personal feelings
+>> towards company on the community. And I can also truly claim that I
+>> have an absolute full understanding of all the work an complexity
+>> involved in putting together the whole distribution and put tons of
+>> more hours into this on my sparetime and out of interest for
+>> contributing to the community, making me quite aware of the fact that
+>> you'll have a pretty darn hard time doing this and organizing the
+>> whole thing on your own.
+>
+> good for you.
+>
+> but you know, this is a fork - we announced *our* decision, and people
+> join *if*they*want*. i did not handle a gun over people to force them to
+> come on various mageia mailing-lists and propose their help. it was
+> their choice. you may not agree, but please respect their choice. same
+> as i respect your choice: you prefer continuing with mandriva, fine. and
+> i won't come and try to convince you over and over: we're grown-ups, and
+> can make our opinion ourselve.
+>
+>
+>> In all these claims about this being a community project and it being
+>> independent off people's employment and all, would you really find
+>> disgruntled ex-employees which has only been involved in this project
+>> through employment as the most trustworthy characters? How much time
+>> do they actually plan to invest themself into this project on their
+>> sparetime now that they're not employed by Mandriva?
+>
+> this is none of your business. really.
+> they will speak about that if they want, but otherwise, please stay away
+> from their private life.
+Questioning people's involvement and dedication to a project is to dig
+into people's personal life?
+Do you have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy for Mageia..?
+>
+>
+>> I can't really start telling how provoked I am over seeing this
+>> childish and truly community hostile attitude, or about the claims
+>> about through the liquidation of Edge-IT all of the talents and
+>> important people involved in development of the distribution
+>> disappearing, guess what, the majority of the staff working on the
+>> distribution for quite some time has actually been employed at
+>> Conectiva, not Edge-IT!
+>
+> once again: if you think it's better to follow up mandriva, then please
+> do so. what we did was community-friendly: after having understood that
+> a reconciliation could not be done at this moment, it's way better to
+> say "good-bye, we're going on our own", rather than rotting and
+> spreading bad will / mood in the project.
+I could  say something about the order of occurence on "good-bye,
+we're going on our own" and "spreading bad will / mood in the
+project", but whatever..
+>
+> and who knows, maybe there will be a reconciliation later on. but i can
+> tell you that it's not possible right now. trying to force a
+> reconciliation won't work - it doesn't work like that.
+Forcing? It was a constructive discussion and invitation which
+oviously is of interest to all parties, the opposition and rejection
+from some people within your project seems to go right against much of
+the motivation and goals for others involved with it.
+But sure, deciding on and any participation in this is something
+that's for you to decide on *together* with the rest of your
+community.
+
+I don't plan on ending the discussion nor trying to collaborate as
+much as possible..
+
+--
+Regards,
+Per Øyvind
+