[Mageia-dev] [RFC] radeon firmware in non-free

Wed May 30 11:46:25 CEST 2012

30.05.2012 12:23, Thierry Vignaud skrev:
+> On 30 May 2012 11:09, Thomas Backlund<tmb at mageia.org>  wrote:
+>>> I think we must discuss the following point for next release:
+>>> currently radeon firmwares are in non-free.
+>>>
+>>> However this break havoc quite a lot of install b/c by default
+>>> non-free is not enabled.
+>>
+>> So its an installer issue.
+>
+> No it's a policy issue.
+> media.cfg enforces not installing firmwares by default.
+> But builders of live cds overrides this.
+>
+> Which is inconsistent
+>
+
+Well, it was a old design decision we followed for livecds...
+
+> Maybe should we split firmwares in another medium that should:
+> - be enabled by default
+> - be included in the install ISOs
+>
+>>> 1) This makes the Mageia experience horrible on some machines
+>>>      (black screen, machines unusable by newbies (and worse
+>>>      unrecoverable by newbies), ...)
+>>>      Newer ATI/AMD cards cannot work w/o the needed firmware.
+>>>      That's also the issue with several network cards.
+>>>      (which makes network installation impossible by default)
+>>
+>>
+>>
+>> So people should think twice about what hw they want to buy/use.
+>
+> Come on you're trolling.
+> What's more, _YOU_ are the one building live cds with proprietary drivers... :-)
+>
+
+Well, I have no problem dropping them from livecds again as I can use 
+the space...
+
+It did work for mga1 (as there were no prebuilt proprietary drivers then)
+
+> That is totally inconsistent.
+>
+> Other distros either use proprietary drivers or free drivers with the
+> needed firmwares.
+> We do the first (live-cd) and the worst of all choices: free drivers
+> w/o the needed firmwares (install ISO)
+>
+>>> 2) this is unlike the live-cd where we've those firmwares (and
+>>>      the proprietary drivers as well)
+>>>
+>>
+>> This is because you cant install rpms on live media...
+>> (or you can, but as the change is gone with a reboot,
+>>   there is not much point)
+>
+> Yet it is inconsistent.
+>
+>>> 3) This is unlike other "pure" FOSS distro such as Fedora
+>>>       which includes the firmwares.
+>>
+>>
+>>
+>> Well, that's their choice, not ours...
+>
+> Offering the choice between working proprietary drivers
+> and NOT working free drivers is somewhat stupid don't you think?
+>
+
+So we need to fix the hw/driver detection/switching and not just
+"paper over" it by pulling nonfree stuff by default
+
+>
+>>> So we offer the choice between:
+>>> - either be able to choose between working proprietary driver and
+>>>    working free driver
+>>> - or to have non working free driver
+>>> This is _INSANE_.
+>>>
+>>> I think It's time we reconsider this.
+>>>
+>>> Firmwares do not run on the main CPU.
+>>> They're needed for additional chips where no one will ever
+>>> ever write a program for.
+>>>>
+>>>>  From the main CPU/memory view point they're data.
+>>
+>>
+>>
+>> But not from our perspective about free-only.
+>
+> Then why do you promote proprietary drivers on live cds :-) ?
+> Again this is totally inconsistent...
+>
+
+So I guess we need to fix livecds by either dropping proprietary
+stuff, or make the display_driver_helper ask if user wants to
+boot with proprietary stuff or not...
+
+
+> And nobody will ever wrote an alternative firmware anyway...
+> And in most cases, nobody knows how the internal works.
+> And for the AMD/ATI case, the free driver won't pick directly at the
+> hardware but will use AtomBIOS to level differences between
+> hw (remember the radeonhd fiasco).
+>
+> Who will rewrite the AMD firmwares for all radeon generations
+> and/or make the driver work without Atom BIOS ??
+> Come on...
+>
+> What we're actually promoting to our end users is that free drivers
+> suck whereas the live cds with  proprietary drivers works smoothly.
+>
+
+Again, this is hw specific.
+
+There is Intel, nouveau, sis,... that does not need fw/proprietary drivers.
+
+
+> That's a total aberration regarding promoting FOSS
+
+Well, it's also a simple truth/fact.
+Not all hw is fully FOSS supported.
+
+>
+>>> I think we should offer the choice to:
+>>> - either be able to choose between working proprietary driver and
+>>>    working free driver
+>>> - or to have _working_ free driver
+>>>    (that is including the needed firmwares)
+>>>
+>>
+>> As pointed out in earlier discussions about this issue...
+>>
+>> There is 2 points needing fix.
+>>
+>> - the installer should detect the need for nonfree, and ask if people
+>>   want to enable it. (or simply ask if user want to add nonfree media)
+>
+> I'm actually planning to add a media screen in cauldron installer so that
+> one can enable/disable media.
+>
+
+Great.
+
+> But that needs to actually include a nonfree/release subset on the install
+> ISO so that those w/o network can enable it.
+>
+
+Or ask for additional media pointed out below.
+
+> Detecting need for non-free could then be done (looking at modinfo
+> output for needed modules)
+>
+>> - the other thing to fix is to change the installer option about
+>>   "additional CD" to "additional media" and allow for browsing for
+>>   additional rpms on a cd/dvd/disk/usb/... media.
+
+--
+Thomas
+