[Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer

Sun Mar 27 00:34:21 CET 2011

On 03/26/2011 01:11 AM, andre999 wrote:
+> Frank Griffin a écrit :
+>>
+> From what you say, there are not a lot of points of disagreement 
+> between us, on this issue.
+> We both have contributed to open source for a long time, you 
+> apparently mostly on developement/packaging, myself mostly 
+> translating/ aide in forums, with some contributions to development.  
+> (Currently an apprentice packager.)
+>
+> You find 2 isos a minor inconvenience, but in practice normally 
+> install online, from cooker/cauldron.
+
+Actually, what I wrote was that I hadn't used ISOs since I discovered 
+cooker.  I used them before that for many years (since about MDV 7.2), 
+In fact, in the mkcd days, I used to burn all 9 of the 650-700MB CDs 
+needed to contain the full package set.
+
+>
+> Myself, I find a single DVD that contains everything I need to get a 
+> fully working system (in terms of hardware/drivers) a major 
+> convenience, and do not have the luxury of the bandwidth necessary to 
+> install from the internet.
+> I don't know if you have ever installed from Mandriva's 3-cd set, but 
+> juggling 3 cds on installing a package is a hassle that I very much 
+> prefer to avoid.  One iso is great.
+
+Given the state of current technology, if you don't have the bandwidth 
+to do network installs, then you are understandably at the low end of 
+the marketing curve, and pretty much have to take what you can find.
+
+Don't get me wrong, I've been there.  I've been an OS/2 enthusiast for 
+years (actually, decades now), and I know what it is to be on the short 
+end of the supply curve.  And for about a year in 2003, the town I moved 
+to had no broadband, and I maintained my cooker tree via dialup (god 
+help us all).
+
+Through all this, my mindset was that I chose or had had imposed upon me 
+these restrictions.  I bore my Windows friends no animus for the fact 
+that I had to jump through hoops to either find equivalent apps or run 
+theirs under emulation in order to interact with others in my office.  I 
+did what I had to do in order to run the system I wanted to run, and I 
+assure you that juggling a few disks during the install would have been 
+the least of my worries.
+
+For you to complain that because you have minimal network access, the 
+rest of the Mageia community should bend over backwards to avoid your 
+having to swap a few CDs during install is a pretty hollow argument, in 
+my opinion.
+
+
+>
+> As well, I appreciate very much the ability to do a complete, fully 
+> working reinstall without internet access.
+> (To facilitate this, I keep packages installed from sources other than 
+> the DVD in a separate partition.)
+>
+> The single DVD is not only useful for myself.  It is handy to promote 
+> Linux as well.  Unfortunately, with missing firmware and drivers, the 
+> DVD will not fully work on many systems.  And new users prefer a 
+> _single_ iso that just works.  Having to juggle isos is a deterant.
+
+I'm sorry, but I don't accept this argument.  It hasn't been so long 
+since Windows installed from multiple floppies.  I would accept that a 
+new user who had been given the impression that the single DVD was all 
+he needed would be annoyed if he found that the resulting system didn't 
+work, but if it is shoved in the user's face that the second ISO is 
+needed, I very much doubt that even a new user would try to install from 
+the one ISO and complain about it.
+
+>
+> On the question of space on the DVD, you must admit that all the 
+> (non-free) firmware and drivers (not already included) would not take 
+> an enormous amount of space.
+
+And therefore, downloading an ISO for them could be done under dialup, 
+or even two tin cans and a string.
+
+
+> Note that on the Mandriva 2010.2 DVD, for example, the 2 biggest games 
+> take about 100 M and 40 M repectively.
+> It is simply a matter of priorities.
+
+This is a completely separate topic.  I tried to avoid it, because every 
+time it surfaces in the cooker ML it results in a flame war between 
+countless parties all jockeying to get their favorite app on the single 
+DVD.  If you want to jump into this, feel free, but not with me.  I 
+don't care what is or isn't on the primary ISO.
+
+>
+> In sum, it is easy to understand your point of view, as you don't 
+> (normally) use isos.
+> Please understand the point of view of those who do, particularly 
+> those who have serious bandwidth restrictions.
+
+I do understand your point of view, but I don't espouse it to the point 
+of saying that Mageia should trim its primary DVD or shuffle its 
+contents just to save people with limited bandwidth having to juggle a 
+few disks during an install.
+
+
+