From 1be510f9529cb082f802408b472a77d074b394c0 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Nicolas Vigier <boklm@mageia.org>
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 13:46:12 +0000
Subject: Add zarb MLs html archives

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+   <H1>[Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1</H1>
+    <B>Colin Guthrie</B> 
+    <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20ANN%3A%20X11%20now%20starts%20on%20tty1&In-Reply-To=%3C4EFB7ABB.6050600%40colin.guthr.ie%3E"
+       TITLE="[Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1">mageia at colin.guthr.ie
+       </A><BR>
+    <I>Wed Dec 28 21:23:23 CET 2011</I>
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+<PRE>'Twas brillig, and P. Christeas at 20/12/11 07:56 did gyre and gimble:
+&gt;<i> On Saturday 17 December 2011, Colin Guthrie wrote:
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> Back in the day, text logins were the norm, graphical logins came later.
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> Text logins got ttys 1-7... These days they are pretty much useless for
+</I>&gt;&gt;<i> 99.5% of the use cases ...
+</I>&gt;<i> 
+</I>&gt;<i> I'd like to question that.
+</I>&gt;<i> You see, machines still have 'init 3' (or did Fedora remove that, too?),
+</I>
+Yup they remove it! Well, technically not, it's just not called &quot;3&quot; any
+more, it's called &quot;multi-user.target&quot; which is altogether more sensible.
+
+&gt;<i> there 
+</I>&gt;<i> is still people wanting a Linux box (not desktop) not to have X. And that's 
+</I>&gt;<i> way more than 0.5% .
+</I>
+OK, the text you quoted is somewhat taken out of context. I never
+suggested removing text logins or not catering for server installs sans
+X (I use this setup myself). All I'm suggesting is that the first, say
+six TTYs are reserved for the current target's preferred login system.
+If you are on multi-user.target (aka runlevel 3) then you 1-6 offer you
+a text login as before. However if you are on graphical target then 1-6
+should offer you graphical logins instead.
+
+&gt;<i> Or, X may be broken sometimes.
+</I>
+And I proposed that some higher numbers would be reserved for text-only
+logins - i.e. tty's 8-9 or something.
+
+&gt;<i> So, standardization of tty1=text makes sense, is not just an old habit.
+</I>
+No, it's an old habit so you are defaulting to it as a solution when
+there are a myriad of others out there that (IMO) fit better.
+
+&gt;<i> Because, you are *always* expecting to find a working tty console on a Linux 
+</I>&gt;<i> box[1], while X only launches a bit later, if it can[2]. Putting the one that 
+</I>&gt;<i> works in the default place is more reasonable, see?
+</I>
+I also thing it's reasonable that *something* pops up when X tries to
+start and fails. Whether this is a getty that allows you to log in or
+something even more friendly, doesn't really matter.
+
+&gt;<i> Really, why don't you patch the kernel to start at tty7? you could call that 
+</I>&gt;<i> &quot;progress&quot;, too.
+</I>
+IMO, no it's not progress. It's keeping the same conventions for the
+sake of it rather than evaluating what makes sense with a fresh pair of
+eyes. The ONLY valid reason I can see for keeping graphics on tty7 is
+simply that's that's how it was done before. Now this does carry some
+weight I agree, but when evaluating what makes Linux hard to use for
+newbies and novices, we sometimes have to through out &quot;quirks&quot; that we
+are used to for the sake of a more logical approach.
+
+&gt;<i> Some things in Linux could improve, but some don't need change. Unix legacy is 
+</I>&gt;<i> what makes Linux great[3]
+</I>
+Citation needed. And your footnote is complete nonsense. Time has not
+proven it right at all. It's proven that it works, but that doesn't mean
+it's optimal. I mean time has proven that a bubble sort works. Does that
+mean we should not look to e.g. quick sort algorithms etc? Of course not.
+
+&gt;<i>, IMHO. Part of that legacy (the &quot;old school&quot;) is to 
+</I>&gt;<i> have failsafe defaults, is to start with a minimal design and then build the 
+</I>&gt;<i> extras on top.
+</I>
+And you are welcome to your view, but you have to admit it's clouded. I
+try very hard to discard any clouded views I have due to habits. I mean
+a regular newbie user doesn't consider &quot;graphical UI&quot; to be an &quot;extra
+that you built on top&quot;... it's the core to them. Anything less and it's
+not an operating system!
+
+&gt;<i> That's why Unix principles (or &quot;hangovers&quot;) have survived so 
+</I>&gt;<i> many decades, while other OSs have gone with the wind[4]. 
+</I>
+A lot of unixisms are good. But some are bad and just didn't have any
+viable alternative until people pull their finger out and design and
+develop some stuff to replace it! You cannot say &quot;unix is good&quot; as a
+broad statement. You have to each component on it's own merits.
+
+Col
+
+-- 
+
+Colin Guthrie
+colin(at)mageia.org
+<A HREF="http://colin.guthr.ie/">http://colin.guthr.ie/</A>
+
+Day Job:
+  Tribalogic Limited <A HREF="http://www.tribalogic.net/">http://www.tribalogic.net/</A>
+Open Source:
+  Mageia Contributor <A HREF="http://www.mageia.org/">http://www.mageia.org/</A>
+  PulseAudio Hacker <A HREF="http://www.pulseaudio.org/">http://www.pulseaudio.org/</A>
+  Trac Hacker <A HREF="http://trac.edgewall.org/">http://trac.edgewall.org/</A>
+</PRE>
+
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