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about create a Mageia Welcome Center? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?

+ Peter Watson + pw at pwatson.me.uk +
+ Thu Sep 30 01:02:21 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
On Wednesday 29 September 2010 21:59:14 Dick Gevers wrote:
+> Dear Andre!
+> 
+> On Wed, 29 Sep 2010 01:03:05 +0000 (UTC), Andre Machado 
+wrote about
+> 
+> [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome 
+Center?:
+> >http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/925/mageiawelcome.png
+> 
+> And this is supposed to cover my whole desktop? Please: no.
+> 
+> I don't mean to be disrespectful, but if I started up my computer 
+and saw
+> this, I'd think I'd bought a tool for children instead of an adult 
+operated
+> personal computer.
+> 
+> /Ducking for flame throwers.
+> 
+> I regret that I do not very much like the idea. But if everyone on 
+this
+> list wants it: okay.
+> 
+I agree with Dick, for me the whole idea seems patronising. I have 
+seen this described as being for newbies or old users, well at 67 
+tears old I certainly do not feel the need for this.
+
+Peter Watson
+
+ + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000449.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000449.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..d6fe1f9cf --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000449.html @@ -0,0 +1,71 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?

+ Gustavo Giampaoli + giampaoli.gustavo at gmail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 02:49:29 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
>> I regret that I do not very much like the idea. But if everyone on
+> this
+>> list wants it: okay.
+
+I think this Welcome center would appear in the very first boot. Just
+as the welcome page of Mandriva. And with a click, in the "X", you
+remove it and it never appears again.
+
+You wouldn't see it in every boot.
+
+Cheers!
+
+
+Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980)
+
+ + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000450.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000450.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..65f831212 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000450.html @@ -0,0 +1,74 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?

+ André Machado + afmachado at dcemail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 02:49:34 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
+> I agree with Dick, for me the whole idea seems patronising. I have 
+> seen this described as being for newbies or old users, well at 67 
+> tears old I certainly do not feel the need for this.
+> 
+
+Think in emotive computer. Think that user starts up your computer and sees a
+window with text: "Good morning/afternon/night username!". And in another line,
+"You have 3 new e-mails". And on side, tue current weather and, below, a list of
+user compromises for that day, all together the hardware information and
+shortcuts for common tasks and diagnostic tests of hardware and software, and a
+warning that package updates are available! - yes, I had all these new ideas now!
+
+In fact, most of the "Welcome Center" button are destined not to show them more,
+but if we can add useful features, the MWC will be a productivity tool, the
+starting point for the entire operation of the computer!
+
+
+ + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000451.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000451.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..8d08e2fcb --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000451.html @@ -0,0 +1,62 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?

+ Ireneusz Gierlach + irek.gierlach at gmail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 02:53:42 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
  I just hope there won't be a survey when you first install, because if 
+you have no internet it doesn't let you do anything. You have to like go 
+to console and do not cool stuff. I guess as long as it is not invasive 
+it will be fine.
+
+ + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000452.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000452.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..02cb2ab25 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000452.html @@ -0,0 +1,67 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?

+ André Machado + afmachado at dcemail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 03:51:52 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
Gustavo Giampaoli <giampaoli.gustavo at ...> writes:
+> I think this Welcome center would appear in the very first boot. Just
+> as the welcome page of Mandriva. And with a click, in the "X", you
+> remove it and it never appears again.
+> 
+> You wouldn't see it in every boot.
+
+> 
+
+That's the point: user can choose if want see it in every boot or not. And, if
+not, it will continue available as a menu icon.
+
+
+ + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000453.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000453.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..f6b4735b1 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000453.html @@ -0,0 +1,80 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] test + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] test

+ Angelo Naselli + anaselli at linux.it +
+ Thu Sep 30 09:37:12 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
sorry
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+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000454.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000454.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..6c5fbed6c --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000454.html @@ -0,0 +1,67 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?

+ Michael Scherer + misc at zarb.org +
+ Thu Sep 30 11:23:42 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
Le mercredi 29 septembre 2010 à 20:53 -0400, Ireneusz Gierlach a écrit :
+> I just hope there won't be a survey when you first install, because if 
+> you have no internet it doesn't let you do anything. You have to like go 
+> to console and do not cool stuff. I guess as long as it is not invasive 
+> it will be fine.
+
+Then we need to fix it so it cope with no internet access, not disable
+it.
+-- 
+Michael Scherer
+
+
+ + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000455.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000455.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..d4d9882a5 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000455.html @@ -0,0 +1,71 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?

+ Robert Xu + robxu9 at gmail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 12:19:43 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
On Sep 30, 2010, at 5:23, Michael Scherer <misc at zarb.org> wrote:
+
+> Le mercredi 29 septembre 2010 à 20:53 -0400, Ireneusz Gierlach a écrit :
+>> I just hope there won't be a survey when you first install, because if
+>> you have no internet it doesn't let you do anything. You have to like go
+>> to console and do not cool stuff. I guess as long as it is not invasive
+>> it will be fine.
+>
+> Then we need to fix it so it cope with no internet access, not disable
+> it.
+
+Maybe the first time connected to the internet the survey should appear?
+
+-- later, Robert Xu
+
+ + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000456.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000456.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..a831062d6 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000456.html @@ -0,0 +1,80 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?

+ atilla ontas + tarakbumba at gmail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 12:38:45 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
2010/9/30 Robert Xu <robxu9 at gmail.com>:
+> On Sep 30, 2010, at 5:23, Michael Scherer <misc at zarb.org> wrote:
+>
+>> Le mercredi 29 septembre 2010 à 20:53 -0400, Ireneusz Gierlach a écrit :
+>>> I just hope there won't be a survey when you first install, because if
+>>> you have no internet it doesn't let you do anything. You have to like go
+>>> to console and do not cool stuff. I guess as long as it is not invasive
+>>> it will be fine.
+>>
+>> Then we need to fix it so it cope with no internet access, not disable
+>> it.
+>
+> Maybe the first time connected to the internet the survey should appear?
+>
+> -- later, Robert Xu
+
+Why we' re talking about a survey? Do we need this? We are not a
+company and think about customer happiness. I thought this thread is
+about a informational and/or assistance application for newbies.
+
+If we' re talking about a Welcome Center, we should decide if it is
+only an informative html page or an assistance to configure basic
+things or both.
+
+ + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000457.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000457.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..a864c4c5b --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000457.html @@ -0,0 +1,73 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?

+ Olivier Méjean + omejean at yahoo.fr +
+ Thu Sep 30 12:34:30 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 12:19:43, Robert Xu a écrit :
+> On Sep 30, 2010, at 5:23, Michael Scherer <misc at zarb.org> wrote:
+> > Le mercredi 29 septembre 2010 à 20:53 -0400, Ireneusz Gierlach a écrit :
+> >> I just hope there won't be a survey when you first install, because if
+> >> you have no internet it doesn't let you do anything. You have to like go
+> >> to console and do not cool stuff. I guess as long as it is not invasive
+> >> it will be fine.
+> >
+> > Then we need to fix it so it cope with no internet access, not disable
+> > it.
+> 
+> Maybe the first time connected to the internet the survey should appear?
+> 
+> -- later, Robert Xu
+
+Is a survey necessary ?
+
+Olivier
+
+ + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000458.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000458.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..45dbbdfca --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000458.html @@ -0,0 +1,90 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?

+ Michael Scherer + misc at zarb.org +
+ Thu Sep 30 12:52:20 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 13:38 +0300, atilla ontas a écrit :
+> 2010/9/30 Robert Xu <robxu9 at gmail.com>:
+> > On Sep 30, 2010, at 5:23, Michael Scherer <misc at zarb.org> wrote:
+> >
+> >> Le mercredi 29 septembre 2010 à 20:53 -0400, Ireneusz Gierlach a écrit :
+> >>> I just hope there won't be a survey when you first install, because if
+> >>> you have no internet it doesn't let you do anything. You have to like go
+> >>> to console and do not cool stuff. I guess as long as it is not invasive
+> >>> it will be fine.
+> >>
+> >> Then we need to fix it so it cope with no internet access, not disable
+> >> it.
+> >
+> > Maybe the first time connected to the internet the survey should appear?
+> >
+> > -- later, Robert Xu
+> 
+> Why we' re talking about a survey? Do we need this? We are not a
+> company and think about customer happiness. I thought this thread is
+> about a informational and/or assistance application for newbies.
+
+You do not have to be a company to want to know who use your software.
+And I think knowing who use the software can be important in term of
+communication. And that's the first step toward listening users. 
+
+Now, a automatic survey as done by mdv may not be the best way for us,
+but this should not be ditched based on "we are not a company, we do not
+need to know who us the software".
+
+
+
+-- 
+Michael Scherer
+
+
+ + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000459.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000459.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..35ff8b1b5 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000459.html @@ -0,0 +1,112 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?

+ Marek Laane + bald at smail.ee +
+ Thu Sep 30 12:56:46 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
2010/9/30 Michael Scherer <misc at zarb.org>
+
+> Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 13:38 +0300, atilla ontas a écrit :
+> > 2010/9/30 Robert Xu <robxu9 at gmail.com>:
+> > > On Sep 30, 2010, at 5:23, Michael Scherer <misc at zarb.org> wrote:
+> > >
+> > >> Le mercredi 29 septembre 2010 à 20:53 -0400, Ireneusz Gierlach a écrit
+> :
+> > >>> I just hope there won't be a survey when you first install, because
+> if
+> > >>> you have no internet it doesn't let you do anything. You have to like
+> go
+> > >>> to console and do not cool stuff. I guess as long as it is not
+> invasive
+> > >>> it will be fine.
+> > >>
+> > >> Then we need to fix it so it cope with no internet access, not disable
+> > >> it.
+> > >
+> > > Maybe the first time connected to the internet the survey should
+> appear?
+> > >
+> > > -- later, Robert Xu
+> >
+> > Why we' re talking about a survey? Do we need this? We are not a
+> > company and think about customer happiness. I thought this thread is
+> > about a informational and/or assistance application for newbies.
+>
+> You do not have to be a company to want to know who use your software.
+> And I think knowing who use the software can be important in term of
+> communication. And that's the first step toward listening users.
+>
+> Now, a automatic survey as done by mdv may not be the best way for us,
+> but this should not be ditched based on "we are not a company, we do not
+> need to know who us the software".
+>
+>
+> I rather think that if at all the survey should be an option not something
+you inevitably get - something for people who feel they are ready to
+contribute, give back; otherwise it'd be just a nuisance.
+
+Marek Laane
+
+
+> --
+> Michael Scherer
+>
+> _______________________________________________
+> Mageia-dev mailing list
+> Mageia-dev at mageia.org
+> https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
+>
+-------------- next part --------------
+An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
+URL: </pipermail/mageia-dev/attachments/20100930/491bd036/attachment.html>
+
+ + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000460.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000460.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..0a46baaef --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000460.html @@ -0,0 +1,81 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?

+ Wolfgang Bornath + molch.b at googlemail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 13:03:49 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
2010/9/30 atilla ontas <tarakbumba at gmail.com>:
+>
+> Why we' re talking about a survey? Do we need this? We are not a
+> company and think about customer happiness. I thought this thread is
+> about a informational and/or assistance application for newbies.
+>
+> If we' re talking about a Welcome Center, we should decide if it is
+> only an informative html page or an assistance to configure basic
+> things or both.
+
+Agreed. Surveys are a nuisance anyway.
+1. A large part of survey participants do not tell the truth.
+2. A large part of users do not participate so you will not get any
+real information anyway.
+3. If something is wrong with the project, the distribution, user
+satisfaction or whatever you will know it by user postings in the
+forums earlier than by surveys.
+
+So, at the end of the day,
+What do you get by surveys to take away?
+More work to implement and to read them, that's all.
+
+ + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000461.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000461.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..aac57857b --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000461.html @@ -0,0 +1,76 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?

+ Michael Scherer + misc at zarb.org +
+ Thu Sep 30 13:08:40 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 13:56 +0300, Marek Laane a écrit :
+> I rather think that if at all the survey should be an option not
+> something
+> you inevitably get - something for people who feel they are ready to
+> contribute, give back; otherwise it'd be just a nuisance.
+
+Of course. IIRC there was a checkbox "do not answer" on Mandriva survey.
+I think I remember that fcrozat told me there was a problem on small
+screen as the checkbox was hidden, but that was clearly a bug.
+
+Anyway, I think that without server side interface, this will not work,
+and before asking who our users are, we need to have softwares and
+users :)
+
+So the first time survey will likely disappear for now ( and maybe
+forever, depending on the need and suggestions of marketing ).
+
+-- 
+Michael Scherer
+
+
+ + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000462.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000462.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..892e616b9 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000462.html @@ -0,0 +1,84 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?

+ atilla ontas + tarakbumba at gmail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 13:53:36 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
2010/9/30 Wolfgang Bornath <molch.b at googlemail.com>:
+> Agreed. Surveys are a nuisance anyway.
+> 1. A large part of survey participants do not tell the truth.
+> 2. A large part of users do not participate so you will not get any
+> real information anyway.
+> 3. If something is wrong with the project, the distribution, user
+> satisfaction or whatever you will know it by user postings in the
+> forums earlier than by surveys.
+>
+> So, at the end of the day,
+> What do you get by surveys to take away?
+> More work to implement and to read them, that's all.
+I mean what wobo has written. Besides, forum posts are more effective
+way to track users opinions about distro and applications. I always
+hated this survey thing on Mandriva. Also it feels something like a
+registration to a propierty application or validate a windows install.
+Many users in Mandriva Turkiye community asked me if they *must* fill
+survey and register their e-mails. Most of them were new to GNU Linux.
+
+I think we should decide if we will implement a Welcome Center/Kaptan
+to distro and if it is an informative screen or basic configuration
+tool or both for newbies. I' m not interested in filling the blanks on
+a survey. Also a survey would be introduced in main web site. Any
+interested user should fill it.
+
+ + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000463.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000463.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..c00b6c624 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000463.html @@ -0,0 +1,99 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?

+ Thorsten van Lil + tvl83 at gmx.de +
+ Thu Sep 30 14:06:43 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
+
+-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
+Von: mageia-dev-bounces at mageia.org [mailto:mageia-dev-bounces at mageia.org] Im
+Auftrag von Wolfgang Bornath
+
+>2010/9/30 atilla ontas <tarakbumba at gmail.com>:
+>>
+>> Why we' re talking about a survey? Do we need this? We are not a
+>> company and think about customer happiness. I thought this thread is
+>> about a informational and/or assistance application for newbies.
+>>
+
+>Agreed. Surveys are a nuisance anyway.
+>1. A large part of survey participants do not tell the truth.
+>2. A large part of users do not participate so you will not get any
+>real information anyway.
+>3. If something is wrong with the project, the distribution, user
+>satisfaction or whatever you will know it by user postings in the
+>forums earlier than by surveys.
+>
+>So, at the end of the day,
+>What do you get by surveys to take away?
+>More work to implement and to read them, that's all.
+
+Surveys are quite reasonable. You get a standardized conclusion. Many people
+use a distribution without ever being registered at a forum. In a forum you
+will only get the extremes (good and bad) but not the small papercuts that
+may disturb the user, ... . There are many reasons for surveys (ask some
+marketing guys or psychologists).
+
+But that’s for the fine tuning. We can think about such things, if we
+released some versions. And I think it never should bother the user. Maybe a
+button in the welcome center "Your opinion is important for use" but not
+with a autostart after the first boot.
+
+Regards,
+TeaAge 
+
+
+ + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000464.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000464.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..9ac1fbb8c --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000464.html @@ -0,0 +1,111 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?

+ Robert Xu + robxu9 at gmail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 14:19:57 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 08:06, Thorsten van Lil <tvl83 at gmx.de> wrote:
+>
+>
+> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
+> Von: mageia-dev-bounces at mageia.org [mailto:mageia-dev-bounces at mageia.org] Im
+> Auftrag von Wolfgang Bornath
+>
+>>2010/9/30 atilla ontas <tarakbumba at gmail.com>:
+>>>
+>>> Why we' re talking about a survey? Do we need this? We are not a
+>>> company and think about customer happiness. I thought this thread is
+>>> about a informational and/or assistance application for newbies.
+>>>
+>
+>>Agreed. Surveys are a nuisance anyway.
+>>1. A large part of survey participants do not tell the truth.
+>>2. A large part of users do not participate so you will not get any
+>>real information anyway.
+>>3. If something is wrong with the project, the distribution, user
+>>satisfaction or whatever you will know it by user postings in the
+>>forums earlier than by surveys.
+>>
+>>So, at the end of the day,
+>>What do you get by surveys to take away?
+>>More work to implement and to read them, that's all.
+>
+> Surveys are quite reasonable. You get a standardized conclusion. Many people
+> use a distribution without ever being registered at a forum. In a forum you
+> will only get the extremes (good and bad) but not the small papercuts that
+> may disturb the user, ... . There are many reasons for surveys (ask some
+> marketing guys or psychologists).
+>
+> But that’s for the fine tuning. We can think about such things, if we
+> released some versions. And I think it never should bother the user. Maybe a
+> button in the welcome center "Your opinion is important for use" but not
+> with a autostart after the first boot.
+>
+> Regards,
+> TeaAge
+>
+
+Ok, so no survey, because they're a pain.
+
+How about that Welcome Center now?
+I mentioned the Linux Mint example earlier, it seems flexible to me...
+They use HTML and WebKit, i think, to render it. We could probably
+include links to applications too.
+
+
+-- 
+later, Robert Xu
+
+ + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000465.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000465.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..20a785f30 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000465.html @@ -0,0 +1,118 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Graham Lauder + yorick_ at openoffice.org +
+ Thu Sep 30 13:21:04 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
A group of the marketing and communication peoples got together to get our 
+heads around Vision and  Mission Statement.  Everyone brainstormed what they 
+saw as the core values of Mageia to give a direction that the Projects Vision 
+and mission statement could head.  
+
+The reasoning behind this is it points a figurative arrow at our  primary 
+target market and thus gives us a guide toward where our branding should be 
+aimed.  
+
+A mistake that is often made is branding from an internal aesthetic when in 
+fact branding should be more aimed externally to attract a new demographic.  
+If the gods are in alignment then ideally it should point toward our principle 
+point of difference and again this influences our branding choices in terms of 
+Colour Pallet Logo and so forth.
+
+The "feel" to me that came from the brainstorming was that Mageia could be 
+marketed as the "Family Distro".   This being a principle point of difference 
+when a user makes a decision as to what operating system to run.
+
+Our principle competitor, MS competes against the Linux universe as a whole 
+but other distros compete for the MS user base aimed at particular 
+Demographics. For instance: 
+OpenSUSE aims at the "Power User" Market   
+Ubuntu aims at the young individual end of the market
+CentOS at Community enterprise and Not For Profits
+Fedora at the Computing Professional
+
+Mageia could therefore aim at the Young Married professional market, being the 
+Distro that could be installed on the home computer and geared so that the 
+whole family could use it.
+
+So for instance as well as the standard software, educational programmes would 
+be installed by default, be NetSafe (Dans Guardian), have OOo4Kids installed 
+as well as a full office suite, Tuxtype, TuxPaint and so on.
+
+Documentation added to show parents how to set up accounts for the kids and 
+how to make it Net safe.
+
+I think that this is an untapped market right now and something that the 
+project could leverage into a marketing campaign and guide us in terms of 
+branding.
+
+Comments?
+
+Cheers
+GL
+
+-- 
+Graham Lauder,
+OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
+http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html
+
+OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant.
+
+INGOTs Assessor Trainer
+(International Grades in Open Technologies)
+www.theingots.org
+
+ + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000466.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000466.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..54013cf4c --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000466.html @@ -0,0 +1,132 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?

+ Michael Scherer + misc at zarb.org +
+ Thu Sep 30 14:50:54 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 14:53 +0300, atilla ontas a écrit :
+> 2010/9/30 Wolfgang Bornath <molch.b at googlemail.com>:
+> > Agreed. Surveys are a nuisance anyway.
+> > 1. A large part of survey participants do not tell the truth.
+> > 2. A large part of users do not participate so you will not get any
+> > real information anyway.
+> > 3. If something is wrong with the project, the distribution, user
+> > satisfaction or whatever you will know it by user postings in the
+> > forums earlier than by surveys.
+> >
+> > So, at the end of the day,
+> > What do you get by surveys to take away?
+> > More work to implement and to read them, that's all.
+> I mean what wobo has written. Besides, forum posts are more effective
+> way to track users opinions about distro and applications. 
+
+Well, this depend on the question. 
+
+A survey could simply give data about "do you use it in professional
+environment" or not, and therefor see where people use the distribution,
+and where they don't use and try to do some effort to fix problem in the
+area where they don't use. This could also help to decide on the type of
+features that must be prioritized. 
+As I said, that's (imho) also listening to community to know this.
+
+This can also help to get information about country, ie, if we see there
+is almost no user in some country, is there a reason, should we try to
+help the community there ?
+
+
+> I always
+> hated this survey thing on Mandriva. Also it feels something like a
+> registration to a propierty application or validate a windows install.
+> Many users in Mandriva Turkiye community asked me if they *must* fill
+> survey and register their e-mails. Most of them were new to GNU Linux.
+
+For sure, if such survey is used ( and again, that's just a
+possibility ), we will have to keep in mind that it  must be clearer on
+the survey what it the goal, and it must be clear that most people do
+not see it is optional.  
+
+I do not advocate to have it by default and forcing user, but I think
+that restricting feedback to forum will miss lots of people. And the
+lack of feedback was something people were complaining for at Mandriva.
+
+There is a balance between waiting that people come with us, and
+potentially lose some without knowing why, or asking to everybody, and
+basically annoy people because we asked feedback. And that's not easy to
+find the right spot.
+
+> I think we should decide if we will implement a Welcome Center/Kaptan
+> to distro and if it is an informative screen or basic configuration
+> tool or both for newbies. I' m not interested in filling the blanks on
+> a survey. Also a survey would be introduced in main web site. Any
+> interested user should fill it.
+
+Such survey on computer side could also help to get data about hardware.
+For example, I think kernel developers would love to have a list of
+people who are registered testers, with their hardware, to contact them
+to say "here is a bug, but I do not have the hardware, I think this rpm
+can fix it, can you give me feedback".
+
+This would solve the future problem of hardware QA, because while
+Mandriva had a labs with lots of stuff, we don't.
+
+But this requires that people register, ie give their email and their
+hardware data. And I think it will be more maybe more effective to ask
+at install time than to wait for people to register by themselves each
+computer. But of course, this can be seen as too intrusive so great care
+must be taken.
+
+-- 
+Michael Scherer
+
+
+ + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000467.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000467.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..4a85f79c2 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000467.html @@ -0,0 +1,163 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Marc Paré + marc at marcpare.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 15:04:26 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
Le 2010-09-30 07:21, Graham Lauder a écrit :
+> A group of the marketing and communication peoples got together to get our
+> heads around Vision and  Mission Statement.  Everyone brainstormed what they
+> saw as the core values of Mageia to give a direction that the Projects Vision
+> and mission statement could head.
+>
+> The reasoning behind this is it points a figurative arrow at our  primary
+> target market and thus gives us a guide toward where our branding should be
+> aimed.
+>
+> A mistake that is often made is branding from an internal aesthetic when in
+> fact branding should be more aimed externally to attract a new demographic.
+> If the gods are in alignment then ideally it should point toward our principle
+> point of difference and again this influences our branding choices in terms of
+> Colour Pallet Logo and so forth.
+>
+> The "feel" to me that came from the brainstorming was that Mageia could be
+> marketed as the "Family Distro".   This being a principle point of difference
+> when a user makes a decision as to what operating system to run.
+>
+> Our principle competitor, MS competes against the Linux universe as a whole
+> but other distros compete for the MS user base aimed at particular
+> Demographics. For instance:
+> OpenSUSE aims at the "Power User" Market
+> Ubuntu aims at the young individual end of the market
+> CentOS at Community enterprise and Not For Profits
+> Fedora at the Computing Professional
+>
+> Mageia could therefore aim at the Young Married professional market, being the
+> Distro that could be installed on the home computer and geared so that the
+> whole family could use it.
+>
+> So for instance as well as the standard software, educational programmes would
+> be installed by default, be NetSafe (Dans Guardian), have OOo4Kids installed
+> as well as a full office suite, Tuxtype, TuxPaint and so on.
+>
+> Documentation added to show parents how to set up accounts for the kids and
+> how to make it Net safe.
+>
+> I think that this is an untapped market right now and something that the
+> project could leverage into a marketing campaign and guide us in terms of
+> branding.
+>
+> Comments?
+>
+> Cheers
+> GL
+>
+
+I think that if you target the software packages that are compatible 
+with Educational software advocated by educational organizations, we 
+could make quite large inroads in the adaptability of Mageia.For 
+example, when marketing the OS, emphasis on the distro that can carry 
+your kids through their educational paths with such packages as 
+OpenOffice (soon to be LibreOffice -- make sure the MSWorks plug-in is 
+also included) compatible with MSOffice; GIMP similar to Photoshop and 
+some plugins are compatible; Freemind mindmapping; etc. If Mageia 
+concentrated on making these software packages work solidly then you 
+could have a good run at competing with other linux distros in the 
+educational field.
+
+BTW, in Canada, many school boards still use the Novel Netware setups 
+and they are just now in the midst of planning out its replacement. My 
+school board for example will have to replace close to 10,000 units if 
+they were to move to a Linux setup. I sat in on a meeting about 5 years 
+ago to hear out a RehHat re-seller's pitch. Most school boards are 
+almost at the break point and will be actively looking for new 
+networking/desktop solutions.
+
+So, compatibility with educational software. The distro should also be 
+an easy install for everyone and GUI run. If we are going to make it and 
+contend with other distros, the majority of users want a GUI run install 
+where everything works right away. There should be as little fiddling 
+around as possible. Install (15-20 minutes), then, register user 
+accounts, shares for accounts, re-name the computer to instill a sense 
+of ownership to the user (rather than having your computer called 
+"localhost" all the time, and then you are done! (Cups and 3d should be 
+installed automatically during the install phase). Make the install as 
+easy as possible.
+
+The next is a distro with games and solid multi-player game setups that 
+work. Get the distro to play nice with WOW and other popular games. This 
+will kill the competition and grab kids attention. Have a Mageia games 
+advocate(s) who periodically send out "snazzy" e-newsletters and a 
+"Magei Games Korner" on the website to foster gamesmanship on the 
+distro. Get the kids talking about the "rock-solid" install of WOW (for 
+example) using Wine -- the distro should come "hard wired" to play! and 
+rock!
+
+Have a great advocacy group that will stand up to Mageia bashing and 
+hand out comparative studies on the distro's performance and keep the 
+name in the headlines with such sites as LinuxToday.com. Be proactive 
+rather reactive to Linux possibilities of use where it can rationalized 
+as a good replacement desktop distro.
+
+Sorry for the long note.
+
+Cheers
+
+Marc
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000468.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000468.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..44a80d170 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000468.html @@ -0,0 +1,88 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?

+ Marek Laane + bald at smail.ee +
+ Thu Sep 30 15:24:38 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
2010/9/30 Michael Scherer <misc at zarb.org>
+
+> Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 13:56 +0300, Marek Laane a écrit :
+> > I rather think that if at all the survey should be an option not
+> > something
+> > you inevitably get - something for people who feel they are ready to
+> > contribute, give back; otherwise it'd be just a nuisance.
+>
+> Of course. IIRC there was a checkbox "do not answer" on Mandriva survey.
+> I think I remember that fcrozat told me there was a problem on small
+> screen as the checkbox was hidden, but that was clearly a bug.
+>
+> Anyway, I think that without server side interface, this will not work,
+> and before asking who our users are, we need to have softwares and
+> users :)
+>
+> So the first time survey will likely disappear for now ( and maybe
+> forever, depending on the need and suggestions of marketing ).
+>
+> --
+> Michael Scherer
+>
+>
+Yeah but what I meant was that Mandriva shows survey and lets user to
+decline. That I called nuisance. IMHO much better is to let user decide if
+s/he wants to take it at all, e.g. having on welcome screen "Let me take
+survey" or something.
+
+Marek Laane
+-------------- next part --------------
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+
+ + + +
+

+ +
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+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000469.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000469.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..1abcb0b50 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000469.html @@ -0,0 +1,97 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Samuel Verschelde + stormi at laposte.net +
+ Thu Sep 30 15:34:26 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
+Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 13:21:04, Graham Lauder a écrit :
+> Our principle competitor, MS competes against the Linux universe as a whole 
+> but other distros compete for the MS user base aimed at particular 
+> Demographics. For instance: 
+> OpenSUSE aims at the "Power User" Market   
+> Ubuntu aims at the young individual end of the market
+> CentOS at Community enterprise and Not For Profits
+> Fedora at the Computing Professional
+> 
+> Mageia could therefore aim at the Young Married professional market, being the 
+> Distro that could be installed on the home computer and geared so that the 
+> whole family could use it.
+
+I don't know whether I agree or not, but I would like to point out that to me Mandriva is/was et Mageia will/could be a generalist distribution.
+
+Which means :
+- suitable for power users (if one can count me in this category, Mandriva is my desktop of choice)
+- suitable for your individuals (My young brother uses Mandriva Linux)
+- suitable for community enterprise and for professionnal actors (We've got more than 400 Mandriva Free servers in production in french hospitals, and several workstations here)
+
+I know there is a difference between saying that the distro is "suitable" for something and its marketing targeting , but I still remember people telling me "Mandriva is a distro for newbies, not for power users or businesses". I want to avoid this at all prices. 
+
+If I were to choose right now, I would say  : advertise Mageia as a generalist distro suitable for many needs just like Mandriva is/was, and then have specific compaigns to highlight some specific usages : in educationnal fields, server usage, workstation usage, etc.
+
+Regards
+
+Samuel Verschelde
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000470.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000470.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..0ceb09e54 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000470.html @@ -0,0 +1,131 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Thorsten van Lil + tvl83 at gmx.de +
+ Thu Sep 30 15:34:08 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
+
+-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
+Von: mageia-dev-bounces at mageia.org [mailto:mageia-dev-bounces at mageia.org] Im
+Auftrag von Graham Lauder
+Gesendet: Donnerstag, 30. September 2010 13:21
+An: Mageia development mailing-list
+Betreff: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
+
+>A mistake that is often made is branding from an internal aesthetic when in
+
+>fact branding should be more aimed externally to attract a new demographic.
+
+>If the gods are in alignment then ideally it should point toward our
+principle 
+>point of difference and again this influences our branding choices in terms
+of 
+>Colour Pallet Logo and so forth.
+
+This point is a bit difficult to me, as we (as the community) are the
+internal and external in one. We create the distribution for us (the whole
+community) and try enlarge the community.
+
+For example, afaik nearly 75% of the mandriva user (and there for Mageia
+user) use KDE. If we for example aim an group of people which KDE doesn't
+fit, we will probably loose more users the win new users. That's the tricky
+part of a community distro I think ;)
+
+>The "feel" to me that came from the brainstorming was that Mageia could be 
+>marketed as the "Family Distro".   This being a principle point of
+difference 
+>when a user makes a decision as to what operating system to run.
+
+Although I don't count myself to this group, I'm totally fine with the idea
+and see that it is a nearly untapped market. But on the otherside: how big
+could this market be?
+
+>So for instance as well as the standard software, educational programmes
+would 
+>be installed by default, be NetSafe (Dans Guardian), have OOo4Kids
+installed 
+>as well as a full office suite, Tuxtype, TuxPaint and so on.
+
+Here I see some problems:
+If we release a LiveCD and a DVD (like Mandriva does), there will be enough
+space on the LiveCD for extra software. On the DVD there is enough space I
+think, but is it for example really necessary to ship to office suits, just
+to define our aimed market?
+
+>Documentation added to show parents how to set up accounts for the kids and
+
+>how to make it Net safe.
+
+That's a really cool idea! As we also debate about a welcome center, there
+should definitely be a link in it, to that kind of documentation.
+
+I think that the normal home user and a young family have nearly the same
+requirements. Both need an easy to install and maintain and use system (yes
+I know: who doesn't want this). Maybe we can create a distribution which
+fits such requirements and specialize to the family with meta-packages,
+special documentation and tools for them? 
+
+Regards,
+TeaAge
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000471.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000471.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..716233ed2 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000471.html @@ -0,0 +1,97 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Samuel Verschelde + stormi at laposte.net +
+ Thu Sep 30 15:37:34 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
+Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 15:34:26, Samuel Verschelde a écrit :
+> 
+> Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 13:21:04, Graham Lauder a écrit :
+> > Our principle competitor, MS competes against the Linux universe as a whole 
+> > but other distros compete for the MS user base aimed at particular 
+> > Demographics. For instance: 
+> > OpenSUSE aims at the "Power User" Market   
+> > Ubuntu aims at the young individual end of the market
+> > CentOS at Community enterprise and Not For Profits
+> > Fedora at the Computing Professional
+> > 
+> > Mageia could therefore aim at the Young Married professional market, being the 
+> > Distro that could be installed on the home computer and geared so that the 
+> > whole family could use it.
+> 
+> I don't know whether I agree or not, but I would like to point out that to me Mandriva is/was et Mageia will/could be a generalist distribution.
+> 
+> Which means :
+> - suitable for power users (if one can count me in this category, Mandriva is my desktop of choice)
+> - suitable for your individuals (My young brother uses Mandriva Linux)
+> - suitable for community enterprise and for professionnal actors (We've got more than 400 Mandriva Free servers in production in french hospitals, and several workstations here)
+
++ suitable for family of course : parental control in MCC, my wife uses it without any problem...
+
+Regards
+
+Samuel
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000472.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000472.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..fd5f0c0c9 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000472.html @@ -0,0 +1,102 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Gustavo Giampaoli + giampaoli.gustavo at gmail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 15:39:08 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
I like very much the professional approach and analysis of Graham. And
+I agree pretty much.
+
+However, a "family" distro means, for me, the married man / woman +
+kids. And that's where I find Marc's approach correct.
+
+If you wan that the whole family could enjoy the experience, you must
+provide to the distro the "tools-for-common-tasks" like office suite,
+Internet, IM, etc etc, educational software and security-for-kids
+tools, and of course, solid game experience.
+
+If you don't include games, probably you'll have dual-boot PC's
+instead of Megaia-only PCs.
+
+There will be cases where dual-boot will be inevitable (maybe because
+dad needs a particular tool and Wine is not an option), but we're
+talking about the majority.
+
+Cheers!
+
+
+Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980)
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000473.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000473.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..6698ac435 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000473.html @@ -0,0 +1,91 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Mihai Dobrescu + msdobrescu at gmail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 15:49:39 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
Hi,
+
+I am a Windows/MS based web apps and software developer.
+When I have chosen Mandriva (about 10 years ago) for my home PC, my criteria
+was related to usability and reliability, and the community was a very
+important criterion. Also easy setup and forget was in my mind and I was
+pleased by its plenty of packages. I will always look at Linux from the
+software developer point of view though...
+-------------- next part --------------
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+URL: </pipermail/mageia-dev/attachments/20100930/17f2d21a/attachment.html>
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000474.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000474.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..f116c6fe4 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000474.html @@ -0,0 +1,130 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Kira + elegant.pegasus at gmail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 16:05:26 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
在 Thu, 30 Sep 2010 21:34:26 +0800, Samuel Verschelde  
+<stormi at laposte.net>寫道:
+> I don't know whether I agree or not, but I would like to point out that  
+> to me Mandriva is/was et Mageia will/could be a generalist distribution.
+>
+> Which means :
+> - suitable for power users (if one can count me in this category,  
+> Mandriva is my desktop of choice)
+> - suitable for your individuals (My young brother uses Mandriva Linux)
+> - suitable for community enterprise and for professionnal actors (We've  
+> got more than 400 Mandriva Free servers in production in french  
+> hospitals, and several workstations here)
+>
+> I know there is a difference between saying that the distro is  
+> "suitable" for something and its marketing targeting , but I still  
+> remember people telling me "Mandriva is a distro for newbies, not for  
+> power users or businesses". I want to avoid this at all prices.
+>
+> If I were to choose right now, I would say  : advertise Mageia as a  
+> generalist distro suitable for many needs just like Mandriva is/was, and  
+> then have specific compaigns to highlight some specific usages : in  
+> educationnal fields, server usage, workstation usage, etc.
+>
+I think what Graham want to express is that Mageia got to find her own
+
+position in the market, if we hope Mageia could be better promoted.
+
+
+Yes, Mageia or Mandrake/Mandriva is for all purpose, but every distro can  
+be
+
+all-purpose. The point is: There's no distinctive difference toward other
+
+distribution. The failure of Mandriva SA business can be connected to many  
+factor,
+
+which I believe part of the problem is that the product don't stands out
+
+among competitors. All- purpose is good, but some personality is also  
+important.
+
+"A distribution for Newbie" is good, but I think what Graham said is  
+better.
+
+We have to find a specific portion of the market to survive, with something
+
+stands out among other competitors like educational/small business/suited  
+for...
+
+blah, blah, blah.
+
+
+Just saying that Mageia can do anything would make new comers wonder:
+
+So, what's the difference Mageia had toward other distribution?
+
+We can still list out what Mageia can do, but some personality is
+
+definitely needed, not just "All-purpose", that's confusing and
+
+would makes Mageia no difference comparing to other distro, since
+
+you can't speak out your major difference in aspect of Market share.
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000475.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000475.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..4c86156b1 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000475.html @@ -0,0 +1,98 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Gustavo Giampaoli + giampaoli.gustavo at gmail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 16:07:27 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
I also think that it's not that Mageia will lose the ability to be a
+power server, or a development platform.
+
+It's more about "which will be the default installation" or "who will
+Mageia target with the standard installation".
+
+You always can, during installation, change for the packages custom
+selection, or mark on the different options like "server" or
+"development platform", etc. Or after installation, with urpmi and
+repos you can build whatever you need / want.
+
+In Mandriva, you always could build a desktop or a power server. It
+all depends of the user.
+
+Cheers!
+
+
+Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980)
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000476.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000476.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..dd58bddaa --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000476.html @@ -0,0 +1,115 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Frank Griffin + ftg at roadrunner.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 16:09:25 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
Marc Paré wrote:
+> Le 2010-09-30 07:21, Graham Lauder a écrit :
+>>
+>> The "feel" to me that came from the brainstorming was that Mageia
+>> could be
+>> marketed as the "Family Distro".
+> I think that if you target the software packages that are compatible
+> with Educational software advocated by educational organizations, we
+> could make quite large inroads in the adaptability of Mageia.
+
+I think that these are endeavors for an entity which is exactly what
+we've just got done saying Mageia *isn't*, namely a commercial venture.
+
+Currently, the package inventory of Mandriva is fairly all-inclusive,
+and I don't think we should abandon any specific interest group. 
+Mandriva may have to do this to remain commercially viable - we do not.
+
+However, let me try to translate your desires into a more technical
+objective that would meet the need..
+
+Traditionally, the MDV ISO-building process has been complex, not
+well-documented, and difficult for anyone outside of MDV to use.  I
+think Mageia should have a simplified process for package selection that
+would enable community users to assemble install ISOs geared to specific
+needs, such as those you mention.  This should be as easy as
+constructing an ISO using k3b or brasero, but would need to be driven by
+the RPM information (e.g. requires).  Actually, a lot of the RPMDrake
+design could be used (if not much of the actual code) to allow a user to
+drag and drop Application Categories or specific packages.  As with any
+CD/DVD burner, the GUI would keep track of whether you were over the
+limit for the volume size, so that you could then pare the package list.
+
+This would allow us to have as many ISOs (or ISO sets) as there are
+people interested in maintaining the individual content lists.  You
+could have a server version, an office desktop version, a games version,
+an education version, a power-user version, etc.  It would also end the
+endless bickering among those who want every media combination from a
+stub-based full network install to a fully self-contained multi-DVD or
+even Blu-Ray install.  You want it, you design it, you press the button
+and build it.
+
+It should not be too difficult to write a utility that goes through a
+content list and automatically updates the package names to newer
+versions, so maintenance could be minimal.  Of course, you'd need to
+fire up the build utility to see if there are new package requirements
+or if you've exceeded your space constraint.
+
+These need not all be available on the same release date.  Whatever we
+decide constitutes a "core" set could form the actual release, with the
+others appearing as the interested groups have time to produce them.
+
+Another idea that fits with this is the concept of a two-tiered install:
+create a single general-purpose bare-bones ISO that installs a common
+baseline of packages, and create a variety of secondary install ISOs
+geared to specific audiences.  People would download the common one plus
+whichever other(s) they wanted.
+
+ + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000477.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000477.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..ad3cb4901 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000477.html @@ -0,0 +1,85 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Samuel Verschelde + stormi at laposte.net +
+ Thu Sep 30 16:18:08 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
+Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 16:05:26, Kira a écrit :
+> So, what's the difference Mageia had toward other distribution?
+
+"Simple to use yet powerful" :
+- newbie-friendly (yes ubuntu is on this market, but to me Mandriva does it better)
+- powerful
+- comprehensive (many packages available in many fields)
+
+Then nothing prevents from saying also, for example :
+"Mageia, ideal for music making", with news, screenshots, people sharing their experience, howtos...
+"Mageia, easy yet powerful on servers", ...
+
+You said nothing about my concern that Mandriva may be seen only as, say, a distribution for education. What about that ?
+
+Regards
+
+Samuel Verschelde
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000478.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000478.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..98f566c90 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000478.html @@ -0,0 +1,72 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Samuel Verschelde + stormi at laposte.net +
+ Thu Sep 30 16:23:02 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
+Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 16:09:25, Frank Griffin a écrit :
+> These need not all be available on the same release date.  Whatever we
+> decide constitutes a "core" set could form the actual release, with the
+> others appearing as the interested groups have time to produce them.
+> 
+
+And then we advertise them as much as we can, without forgetting to stress that those are just specialized versions of the core "all-purpose" Mageia distribution. The "family targeted" distribution may be one major sub-project in Mageia if this is seen as a real "market" to target.
+
+Regards
+
+Samuel Verschelde
+
+
+ + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000479.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000479.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..6c2aa5fa9 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000479.html @@ -0,0 +1,74 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Frank Griffin + ftg at roadrunner.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 16:26:53 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
Samuel Verschelde wrote:
+> Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 16:09:25, Frank Griffin a écrit :
+>   
+>> These need not all be available on the same release date.  Whatever we
+>> decide constitutes a "core" set could form the actual release, with the
+>> others appearing as the interested groups have time to produce them.
+>>
+>>     
+> And then we advertise them as much as we can, without forgetting to stress that those are just specialized versions of the core "all-purpose" Mageia distribution. The "family targeted" distribution may be one major sub-project in Mageia if this is seen as a real "market" to target.
+>
+>   
+A follow-on idea is to expand the "Install Updates" portion of the
+install to allow the installation over the network of "task-"-type
+virtual RPMs intended to customize the system for specific purposes. 
+This would be a network version of the same idea.
+
+ + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000480.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000480.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..2802eed17 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000480.html @@ -0,0 +1,114 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Kira + elegant.pegasus at gmail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 16:35:09 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
在 Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:18:08 +0800, Samuel Verschelde  
+<stormi at laposte.net>寫道:
+
+>
+> Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 16:05:26, Kira a écrit :
+>> So, what's the difference Mageia had toward other distribution?
+>
+> "Simple to use yet powerful" :
+> - newbie-friendly (yes ubuntu is on this market, but to me Mandriva does  
+> it better)
+> - powerful
+> - comprehensive (many packages available in many fields)
+>
+> Then nothing prevents from saying also, for example :
+> "Mageia, ideal for music making", with news, screenshots, people sharing  
+> their experience, howtos...
+> "Mageia, easy yet powerful on servers", ...
+>
+> You said nothing about my concern that Mandriva may be seen only as,  
+> say, a distribution for education. What about that ?
+>
+All purpose means no one knows what the distro wants to do.
+
+Making a specific version for education/small business or whatever
+
+won't makes the distro seems only focus on one thing, but a proof of
+
+full feature OS.
+
+The point is: you have to emphasis something different, not something
+
+others also owns/easily achieved/already well-implemented/advertised.
+
+I don't agree with the way ubuntu flushing the whole board of different
+
+purpose but actually same thing strategy, but it does makes people knows
+
+what to choose to fit their need, which is important to makes people
+
+accept your product.
+
+We do have to find a place in the market slice, or no one would care
+
+about who you are. All-purpose is great, but not for people who is  
+unfamiliar
+
+to our distro:
+
+It's too vague and not attractive since no one knows your strength.
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000481.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000481.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..e634926aa --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000481.html @@ -0,0 +1,88 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Sinner from the Prairy + sinnerbofh at gmail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 16:49:38 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
Kira wrote:
+
+> Yes, Mageia or Mandrake/Mandriva is for all purpose, but every distro
+> can be all-purpose. The point is: There's no distinctive difference
+> toward other distribution. The failure of Mandriva SA business can be
+> connected to many factor, which I believe part of the problem is that
+> the product don't stands out 
+
+Kira,
+
+Exactly my thoughts.
+
+That's why the point proposed by Graham is so important. to start 
+product differentiation.
+
+And because it is Linux, it was/is/will be all-purpose.
+
+
+Salut,
+Sinner
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000482.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000482.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..ec7b7bcb0 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000482.html @@ -0,0 +1,105 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Hoyt Duff + hoytduff at gmail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 16:51:25 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
Choosing a target market is more than making a listing of your
+competitors' markets and combining some words to create a
+unique-sounding market. And it's more that guessing that some
+as-yet-unidentified market can be grepped from the imagination. For
+Mageia, it's an expression of leadership. It won't be found in a mail
+list survey or a popularity poll; it will be found in the Mageia
+leadership.
+
+There are many, many Linux distros in existence. Each has its own take
+on kernel patches, packaging managers, desktops, multimedia,
+programming languages, management tools, color schemes and  so on.
+These things are superficial since once installed, every Linux distro
+is doing essentially the same thing.
+
+The choice of those little pieces and their development is what
+excites and motivates the people that put together the distro
+
+The effectiveness of all these pieces is what excites and motivates
+the user of the distro.
+
+Meeting the needs of the end user determines if the distro will be
+popular or not.
+
+But it's picking the correct end user to target that determines the
+ultimate success of the distro.
+
+Mandriva never figured out who its end user was or what its market was
+and as a result tried to be everything to everybody and failed, not
+because it was a bad distro (it remains one of the best), but because
+it never had focus, it never knew its market.
+
+One of the most important things that the Mageia leadership needs to
+determine is the focus, the goal, the entire point of the existence of
+Mageia. The leadership needs to decide.
+
+They need to do it because they need the investment in order to be
+motivated to lead, manage and build the distro.
+
+They need to do it because it demonstrates that they are capable of
+leading us and are worth investing in.
+
+They need to do it because it needs to be done now.
+
+-- 
+Hoyt
+
+ + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000483.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000483.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..de2b05170 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000483.html @@ -0,0 +1,99 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia, Welcome Center? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia, Welcome Center?

+ Vyacheslav + blinov.vyacheslav at gmail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 16:55:50 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
  Great idea!
+As I see it, it could be a start for everything and everyone, not only 
+new users.
+I think good ideas of this is:
+- to associate user on application\action
+- to provide offline\online help
+- to have all updates on one hand (new e-mails, RSS, weather, package 
+updates, etc.)
+
+So I think it could be one configurable application that provide some 
+blocks.
+It can be easily autostarted or not, just as user wants.
+And it can help us improving distro providing feedback.
+
+And I have an idea of creating something like first-time-tour.
+New people have different wills of their new OS. They have different 
+potential and knowledges about IT and etc.
+So application can ask a few questions to deside where to start a tour.
+So if you are a hacker you can go down exact to core, and if you just 
+want to know how to browse internet and listen to music you will not see 
+suck a geek stuff.
+
+-- 
+Cheers,
+Dante.
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000484.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000484.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..2f8e23acc --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000484.html @@ -0,0 +1,87 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia, Welcome Center? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia, Welcome Center?

+ Vyacheslav + blinov.vyacheslav at gmail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 17:01:50 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
  Just a remark. I think It can configure users desktop to it's needs.
+It's not a everyday task, its application of one perhaps several 
+launches but it's usefull.
+So if it will setup keyboard\network\mouse\workspace for me I would be 
+happy.
+And if this app will ask me to comment do I like it I will write no 
+matter only bad or good feelings I have.
+
+Is it a good feedback and welcome?
+
+-- 
+Cheers,
+Dante.
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000485.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000485.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..f33ced44d --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000485.html @@ -0,0 +1,87 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Gustavo Giampaoli + giampaoli.gustavo at gmail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 17:03:30 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
> We do have to find a place in the market slice, or no one would care
+>
+> about who you are. All-purpose is great, but not for people who is
+> unfamiliar
+>
+> to our distro:
+>
+> It's too vague and not attractive since no one knows your strength.
+
+I agree. If you have being in linux for a little time, you learn that
+all distros are Linux are Linux are Linux. Every distro, with the
+right packages, can be whatever the user whants it to be. Maybe some
+uses DEB, other RPM, Gentoo uses ports, Pardus Pisi. But these are
+small differences. The truth is any linux-based OS can be whatever
+user whants.
+
+So, Mageia should say "this is is my target, my zone. I can do all,
+but this is what I do best"
+
+Cheers!
+
+
+
+Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980)
+
+ + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000486.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000486.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..b61f83e43 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000486.html @@ -0,0 +1,105 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] A new office suite ? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] A new office suite ?

+ andré + andr55 at laposte.net +
+ Thu Sep 30 17:08:28 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
Gustavo Giampaoli a écrit :
+>    
+>> we can have both packages :)
+>>      
+> +1
+>
+> Of course. It's the most "logical" decision.
+>
+> But I think Graham means which office suite will be the "default" one
+> shipped in the installation media. I like the idea of supporting
+> LibreOffice. If anything goes wrong, you always can do an "urpmi
+> openoffice". It should be fast if LibreOffice and OpenOffice are,
+> right now almost the same thing. Packages for both should be almost
+> the same. Am I right?
+>
+> Cheers!
+>
+>
+>
+> Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980)
+> ____
+Correct me if I'm wrong, but the go-openoffice version was the default 
+and only version available on Mandriva, and not the officiel version 
+from Sun (and now Oracle).
+Admittedly, the officiel version corrected bugs more quickly, but the 
+go- version seemed to add more enhancements.
+I think that a large part of the problem with the officiel version was 
+that Sun insisted on having a signed copyright assignment before any 
+contribution - even for bug reports.
+So my bug reports went to the go- version (or via Mandriva).
+
+- André (andre999), long-time user of Openoffice (usually the officiel 
+version).
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000487.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000487.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..2cd2d22f2 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000487.html @@ -0,0 +1,102 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Samuel Verschelde + stormi at laposte.net +
+ Thu Sep 30 17:29:39 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
+Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 17:03:30, Gustavo Giampaoli a écrit :
+> 
+> > We do have to find a place in the market slice, or no one would care
+> >
+> > about who you are. All-purpose is great, but not for people who is
+> > unfamiliar
+> >
+> > to our distro:
+> >
+> > It's too vague and not attractive since no one knows your strength.
+> 
+> I agree. If you have being in linux for a little time, you learn that
+> all distros are Linux are Linux are Linux. Every distro, with the
+> right packages, can be whatever the user whants it to be. Maybe some
+> uses DEB, other RPM, Gentoo uses ports, Pardus Pisi. But these are
+> small differences. The truth is any linux-based OS can be whatever
+> user whants.
+> 
+> So, Mageia should say "this is is my target, my zone. I can do all,
+> but this is what I do best"
+> 
+> Cheers!
+> 
+> 
+
+The names Mandrake, and now Mageia, make me think about ease of use : "everything works like magic". The Mandriva Control Center is one of the strength of Mandriva and now Mageia. I hope it will remains such.
+You change a parameter, and "voilà", it works like expected. (Of course you still can tweak configuration files by yourself, but you can do that in any distribution).
+
+One of the tools we use most is "drakconnect" in console, for our customers (hospitals). They want to change the gateway, or IP address, and we don't have to make them tweak any configuration file (many wouldn't know how to do !) : just issue the drakconnect command, follow the steps, and everything works like a charm. Want to open a new port in the firewall ? Just run drakfirewall and type in the port you have to open.
+
+The drakxtools, and the ability to chose between different desktops (KDE, GNOME, XFCE...), are what I value most in Mandriva. Sure, many will have different opinions, now you have mine. I saw people on forums say "at last we don't have to use the command line to configure everything. I went to ubuntu forums and they always give commands like 'sudo this', 'sudo that' to solve various problems". Don't get me wrong : I use the command line very often. But I like that in Mandriva if you don't want to, often you don't have to use it.
+
+Don't know if it makes the discussion about marketing position go forward...
+
+Regards
+
+Samuel Verschelde
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000488.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000488.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..27026ed32 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000488.html @@ -0,0 +1,108 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia WelcomeCenter? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia WelcomeCenter?

+ andré + andr55 at laposte.net +
+ Thu Sep 30 17:34:31 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
Gustavo Giampaoli a écrit :
+> I found both aproaches really atractive and useful.
+>
+> Kaptan looks very intuitive, easy and centralize most (if not all) the
+> most common and basic settings that a person with basic knowledge
+> could need after the first boot.
+>
+> However, wobo's aproach is also important. What happends if
+> Kaptan-like-tool hangs in the first boot and close? That's where info
+> page will be really really useful. This is an extreme example, but I
+> think I presents the idea well. A newbie will be almost "naked and
+> screaming" without to know where to go for help.
+>
+> But, if Kaptan-like-tool doesn't hang and works fine, it's always
+> important to let people know where they have to go if anything goes
+> wrong or where to meet other user. You never know when a user could
+> become an important contributor.
+>
+> Cheers!
+>
+>
+>
+> Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980)
+> _____
+>    
+I think the welcome centre is a great idea, but I don't see how this 
+Kaptan tool would differ from the Mandriva configuration centre (MCC), 
+long available in Mandriva for easy gui configuration.
+Since Mageia is a fork, we will already have that.  (At least initially.)
+
+As well, there is an easy tool for minor configuration of the Gnome 
+desktop, which I presume has an equivalent under KDE.
+
+Is the idea essentially equivalent to enhancing the MCC for a more 
+complete range of settings to configure ?
+
+- André (andre999)
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000489.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000489.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..344b93bac --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000489.html @@ -0,0 +1,101 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia WelcomeCenter? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia WelcomeCenter?

+ Gustavo Giampaoli + giampaoli.gustavo at gmail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 17:50:46 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
> I think the welcome centre is a great idea, but I don't see how this Kaptan
+> tool would differ from the Mandriva configuration centre (MCC), long
+> available in Mandriva for easy gui configuration.
+> Since Mageia is a fork, we will already have that.  (At least initially.)
+
+Kaptan doesn't replace MCC.
+
+See, you always can go to MCC and change whatever you want. But you
+must know what you are looking for.
+
+Kaptan starts after the very first boot, and takes you step-by-step to
+configure most common / basic settings so you can feel comfortable and
+ready after Kaptan's steps are finished. And everything without
+leaving Kaptan's window.
+
+You can go to MCC anytime, but Kaptan should appear just once after
+the first boot.
+
+Here's Kaptan page (SVN link is wrong)
+
+Here's the right SVN link: http://websvn.pardus.org.tr/uludag/trunk/kde/kaptan/
+
+Eventually, could be ported to Mageia. Or at least, developers could
+take a look and evaluate if it's "portable" to Mageia.
+
+Cheers!
+
+
+
+Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980)
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000490.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000490.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..0bd58c697 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000490.html @@ -0,0 +1,78 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia WelcomeCenter? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia WelcomeCenter?

+ Gustavo Giampaoli + giampaoli.gustavo at gmail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 17:51:26 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
> Here's Kaptan page (SVN link is wrong)
+
+Sorry: http://www.pardus.org.tr/eng/projects/masaustu/kaptan/index.html
+
+
+
+Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980)
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000491.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000491.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..db56a2d95 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000491.html @@ -0,0 +1,88 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Thorsten van Lil + tvl83 at gmx.de +
+ Thu Sep 30 18:03:25 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
+
+Von: mageia-dev-bounces at mageia.org [mailto:mageia-dev-bounces at mageia.org] Im
+Auftrag von Gustavo Giampaoli
+
+>  Every distro, with the
+> right packages, can be whatever the user whants it to be.
+
+>From a logical point of you, your right. But people aren't logical. Ship a
+distribution with a background with balloons and some fancy window
+decoration and kids will love it, while other will never try it.
+
+It's stupid, because you can easily change it but nevertheless, that's it
+like it work. So for me the question of our main market is a question of who
+we want to attract. And I think Graham aims at this to, because we need a
+logo, main colors, a website, ... . All these parts should attract the
+people of our main market.
+
+What packages we ship doesn't really matters, because as you said "Linux is
+Linux".
+
+So, who do we want to attract?
+
+Regards,
+TeaAge
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000492.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000492.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..14ef700be --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000492.html @@ -0,0 +1,86 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia WelcomeCenter? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia WelcomeCenter?

+ atilla ontas + tarakbumba at gmail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 18:07:29 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
2010/9/30 Gustavo Giampaoli <giampaoli.gustavo at gmail.com>:
+>> Here's Kaptan page (SVN link is wrong)
+>
+> Sorry: http://www.pardus.org.tr/eng/projects/masaustu/kaptan/index.html
+>
+>
+>
+> Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980)
+> _______________________________________________
+> Mageia-dev mailing list
+> Mageia-dev at mageia.org
+> https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
+>
+
+It written in python and i think it should easly ported to GTK for
+GNOME or XFCE desktops.
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000493.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000493.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..b3deeb2b5 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000493.html @@ -0,0 +1,78 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia WelcomeCenter? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia WelcomeCenter?

+ Wolfgang Bornath + molch.b at googlemail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 18:08:55 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
2010/9/30 Gustavo Giampaoli <giampaoli.gustavo at gmail.com>:
+>
+> You can go to MCC anytime, but Kaptan should appear just once after
+> the first boot.
+
+For me this is the key reason to implement Kaptan. After first boot it
+is the right start for the newbie, it can be clicked away by the
+advanced user and it will not annoy you by popping up all the time.
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000494.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000494.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..27dcfea14 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000494.html @@ -0,0 +1,131 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia WelcomeCenter? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia WelcomeCenter?

+ andré + andr55 at laposte.net +
+ Thu Sep 30 18:09:56 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
atilla ontas a écrit :
+> 2010/9/29 André Machado<afmachado at dcemail.com>:
+>    
+>>> I'd say that Gustavo is right on this one. What do we really want : a
+>>> setup/configuration tool to help newbies or a welcome page to help newbies
+>>> recognized what the different apps in linux are for?
+>>>        
+>> Maybe both: we can start showing a page with information and put it an "Advanced
+>> options" button what leads to other page with setup/configuration tools.
+>>
+>> But: place setup/configurations tools in Mageia Welcome Center won't does not
+>> become redundant MCC? Or maybe Mageia Welcome center should be a part of MCC?
+>> _____
+> Welcome Center or Kaptan should more desktop/application assistance
+> tool and not replace MCC. This tool should be limited to network
+> connection and screen resolution configuration on system level. But
+> should i.e. change theme, icons, default web browser setting etc.
+> _____
+>    
+I would say that the welcome centre should be informational, with links 
+to the MCC (or subpage of the MCC) where appropriate.
+(To be renamed to the "Mageia" Configuration Centre.)
+
+Kaptan would remain useful for configuration of the desktop for KDE 
+users, just as the Gnome configuration tool would be useful the Gnome users.
+It might be useful for the welcome centre to have a link to the 
+appropriate desktop configuration tool, but I would suggest letting such 
+tools handle any detailed information/configuration associated with 
+their respective environnement.
+This would provide a better user experience : no conflicts between the 
+welcome centre, not necessarily up to date, and the desktop 
+configuration tool.
+
+And enhance the MCC where it would be useful.  Like this, no matter what 
+the desktop is chosen (KDE, Gnome, or a lighter variety), the new user 
+would have full access to common configuration tools.
+
+There should also be links to the wiki for more details, and to the 
+support forums.
+Note that the user will not necessarily have Internet access when using 
+the welcome centre, so that the welcome centre should be complete enough 
+to enable basic configuration.
+
+Also note that already the Mandriva installation cd/dvd's have a fairly 
+complete set of basic configuration options, which are not necessarily 
+fully understood at this point.
+So the welcome centre should be an opportunity to refine such 
+configuration, with all the information necessary for both beginner and 
+advanced users, for basic configuration.  But again, with the actual 
+configuration handled by the existing MCC.
+
+Note that the different desktops favour different applications, and 
+users may have different applications installed.
+So the welcome centre should adapt to the differences, so this tool 
+should be carefully developped with this in mind.  The Linux 
+environnement is one of choice, not the "one-size-fits-all" mentality of 
+the Microsoft world.
+
+my 2 cents :)
+
+- André (andre999)
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000495.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000495.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..d117fa94e --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000495.html @@ -0,0 +1,72 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?

+ André Machado + afmachado at dcemail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 19:45:56 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
+> So the first time survey will likely disappear for now ( and maybe
+> forever, depending on the need and suggestions of marketing ).
+> 
+
+
+Since 1st time what I installed Mandriva Free, system performs a survey at 1st
+boot and put two icons at desktop to sign up to Mandriva Club and to buy
+PowerPack version and I do not know if someone complains that.
+
+Honestly, do a poll with the user before he or she uses the system for the first
+time is a shot in the foot. I think some should appear in the taskbar
+notification inviting the user to answer some questions when he was online a few
+days after you have installed the system. Anyway, this is not the goal of the
+Welcome Center.
+
+
+ + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000496.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000496.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..c8fb449e8 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000496.html @@ -0,0 +1,103 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Michael Scherer + misc at zarb.org +
+ Thu Sep 30 20:41:01 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 22:05 +0800, Kira a écrit :
+
+> "A distribution for Newbie" is good, but I think what Graham said is  
+> better.
+
+Well, 
+saying "a distribution for newbies" is not as good as it sound.
+
+If you market the distribution so people think "if you are a newbie, use
+this distro", people will think "he use this distribution so he is a
+newbie". This will drive knowledgeable peoples away to others
+distribution, because they will feel they will learn more by using
+another distro ( which is wrong ) and because others peoples will appear
+as more knowledgeable when they use a distro that is not aimed at
+newbies.
+
+In turn, this mean a diminution of the global expertise in the
+community. Less expert users to answer to support, less experts users to
+report bug, fix packages, create softwares or contribute, and to
+basically teach to new users how to be good community member resulting
+in less quality, and a less sustainable community.
+
+Apple does it correctly. They never say "we target newbie users".
+See http://www.apple.com//why-mac/ 
+"better computer" "most advanced os" "award winning support" "latest
+technology" "software you love".
+
+Everything resolve around how they are good, not how beginner you can
+be. 
+
+Or see http://www.apple.com/why-mac/better-os/
+they say "it is easy", but they never say "it is easy and can be used by
+a newbie". They say "it is easy and you will learn how to use it fast",
+which is more positive. 
+
+And so I think we should also try to avoid this pitfall, right from the
+start, if we want to have a thriving sustainable community.
+ 
+-- 
+Michael Scherer
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000497.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000497.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..ac0fa4d25 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000497.html @@ -0,0 +1,79 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia?

+ André Machado + afmachado at dcemail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 21:19:11 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
Years ago, the GNU project recompiled Firefox with a new name - Iceweasel - what
+is now used on Debian-based distros. Now, the GNU project has your own
+navigator: IceCat.
+
+Reason was a issue with Firefox logo and names, what are trademarks of Mozilla
+Foundation.
+
+So, my question: Mageia may use the original Firefox? or will we leave for any
+of these "alternative" compilations?
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000498.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000498.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..a2b85e6aa --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000498.html @@ -0,0 +1,131 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia?

+ Gustavo Giampaoli + giampaoli.gustavo at gmail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 21:27:50 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
If I'm reading well, Mozilla allows distribution of Firefox as
+"Firefox" if you don't change it (I mean, code).
+https://www.mozilla.org/foundation/trademarks/policy.html
+
+Software Distributions
+Unaltered Binaries
+
+You may distribute unchanged official binaries (i.e., the installer
+file available for download for each platform (code + config) and not
+the program executable) downloaded from www.mozilla.com or
+www.mozilla.org to anyone in any way, subject to governing law,
+without receiving any further permission from Mozilla. If you want to
+distribute the unchanged official binaries using the Mozilla Marks,
+you may do so, without receiving any further permission from Mozilla,
+as long as you comply with this Trademark Policy and you distribute
+them without charge. However, you must not remove or change any part
+of the official binary, including the Mozilla Marks. On your website
+or in other materials, you may truthfully state that the software you
+are providing is an unmodified version of a Mozilla application,
+keeping in mind the overall guidelines for the use of Mozilla Marks in
+printed materials, detailed above. We suggest that, if you choose to
+provide visitors to your website the opportunity to download Mozilla
+product, you do so by means of a link to our site, to help ensure
+faster, more reliable downloads. (See the section on Linking, below.)
+
+If you choose to distribute Mozilla binaries yourself, you should make
+the latest stable version available (of course, you probably want to
+do so as well). If you compile Mozilla unmodified source code
+(including code and config files in the installer) and do not charge
+for it, you do not need additional permission from Mozilla to use the
+relevant Mozilla Mark(s) for your compiled version. So that users get
+the latest code and security releases, we encourage you to always
+distribute the most current official release. The notification
+requirements of the Mozilla Public License have been met for our
+binaries, so although it's a good idea to do so, you are not required
+to ship the source code along with the binaries.
+
+In addition, if you are distributing Mozilla binaries yourself, and
+wish to use the Mozilla Mark(s), you may not (a) disable, modify or
+otherwise interfere with any installation mechanism contained in a
+Mozilla product; (b) use any such installation mechanism to install
+any plug-ins, themes, extensions, software, or items other than the
+Mozilla product; or (c) use or provide any program, mechanism or
+process (other than an installation mechanism contained in the Mozilla
+product) to install such product. Any use of a meta-installer would
+require our prior written permission.
+
+If you are using the Mozilla Mark(s) for the unaltered binaries you
+are distributing, you may not charge for that product. By not
+charging, we mean the Mozilla product must be without cost and its
+distribution (whether by download or other media) may not be subject
+to a fee, or tied to subscribing to or purchasing a service, or the
+collection of personal information. If you want to sell the product,
+you may do so, but you must call that product by another name—one
+unrelated to Mozilla or any of the Mozilla Marks (see the sections on
+"Modifications" and "Related Software" below). Remember that we do not
+want the public to be confused.
+
+
+Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980)
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000499.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000499.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..beaf18d12 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000499.html @@ -0,0 +1,89 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia?

+ Michael Scherer + misc at zarb.org +
+ Thu Sep 30 21:29:56 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 19:19 +0000, André Machado a écrit :
+> Years ago, the GNU project recompiled Firefox with a new name - Iceweasel - what
+> is now used on Debian-based distros. Now, the GNU project has your own
+> navigator: IceCat.
+> 
+> Reason was a issue with Firefox logo and names, what are trademarks of Mozilla
+> Foundation.
+> 
+> So, my question: Mageia may use the original Firefox? or will we leave for any
+> of these "alternative" compilations?
+
+I think the question is more for the mozilla corporation than us, so I
+think you should ask them and tell us what they think ?
+
+-- 
+Michael Scherer
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000500.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000500.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..ed0b6438b --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000500.html @@ -0,0 +1,102 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] An idea for improve URPMI ;) + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] An idea for improve URPMI ;)

+ André Machado + afmachado at dcemail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 21:32:44 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
one of the great advantages that I see that has URPMI about APT-GET is that
+while the updater downloads all the Debian packages first and then install them,
+the updater will Mandriva downloading and installing the package groups while ,
+which makes the process faster.
+
+However, we know that the download speed of connections is never constant and is
+full of ups and downs.
+
+Thus, if a connection can download 100MB in one hour, this does not mean that
+this will be downloaded at this period. The connection may even hang during the
+download process. There goes my idea:
+
+Can you reprogram URPMI to download packages from smaller to larger?
+
+Let me explain: imagine there is 100MB of updates that need to be downloaded.
+Say the user takes 1 hour to download everything. Suppose that the connection
+hangs after 20 minutes of downloading. Suppose further that the packages to be
+downloaded there is one of 32MB.
+
+If download process starts to this bigger package, when connection hangs, user
+will have only one - or part of one - package downloaded. But if downloading
+starts from smaller packages - those with a few KB - when he become offline,
+he'll have downloaded more packages and, perhaps, installed a lot of stuff.
+
+Of course, should be an option to user chooses how he wants download updates.
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000501.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000501.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..f05589abb --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000501.html @@ -0,0 +1,117 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Daniel Le Berre + le.berred at free.fr +
+ Thu Sep 30 21:38:15 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
Le 30/09/2010 20:41, Michael Scherer a écrit :
+> Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 22:05 +0800, Kira a écrit :
+> 
+>> "A distribution for Newbie" is good, but I think what Graham said is  
+>> better.
+> 
+> Well, 
+> saying "a distribution for newbies" is not as good as it sound.
+> 
+> If you market the distribution so people think "if you are a newbie, use
+> this distro", people will think "he use this distribution so he is a
+> newbie". This will drive knowledgeable peoples away to others
+> distribution, because they will feel they will learn more by using
+> another distro ( which is wrong ) and because others peoples will appear
+> as more knowledgeable when they use a distro that is not aimed at
+> newbies.
+> 
+> In turn, this mean a diminution of the global expertise in the
+> community. Less expert users to answer to support, less experts users to
+> report bug, fix packages, create softwares or contribute, and to
+> basically teach to new users how to be good community member resulting
+> in less quality, and a less sustainable community.
+> 
+> Apple does it correctly. They never say "we target newbie users".
+> See http://www.apple.com//why-mac/ 
+> "better computer" "most advanced os" "award winning support" "latest
+> technology" "software you love".
+> 
+> Everything resolve around how they are good, not how beginner you can
+> be. 
+> 
+> Or see http://www.apple.com/why-mac/better-os/
+> they say "it is easy", but they never say "it is easy and can be used by
+> a newbie". They say "it is easy and you will learn how to use it fast",
+> which is more positive. 
+> 
+> And so I think we should also try to avoid this pitfall, right from the
+> start, if we want to have a thriving sustainable community.
+>  
+
++1
+
+Ease of use should not be restricted to newbies.
+
+Sometimes, you just want a standard system that work, can connect to the
+internet in many different situations, etc. (because you use it every
+day for your business, and all your colleagues too).
+
+In other times, you require a system much more tailored (e.g. server or
+developer computer), on which you can afford to spend some time to
+configure/maintain it.
+
+Mageia should accomodate both.
+
+	Daniel
+
+ + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000502.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000502.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..4f1764164 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000502.html @@ -0,0 +1,79 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Gustavo Giampaoli + giampaoli.gustavo at gmail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 21:41:00 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
> Ease of use should not be restricted to newbies.
+
+People use to think that being advance user or a "hacker" is the same
+to be masochistic XDDDDDDDD
+
+I mean, no matter how advance you are, why will you want to type  a
+houndred lines of text in a console if you can point and click 5 times
+in a beautiful window with buttons, icons, colors and maybe
+animations?
+
+"Easy" doesn't mean "made for stupid people". For me, "easy" is "more
+time enjoying, less suffering" XDDDDD
+
+Cheers!
+
+
+Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980)
+
+ + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000503.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000503.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..4d4ac615a --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000503.html @@ -0,0 +1,82 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] An idea for improve URPMI ;) + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] An idea for improve URPMI ;)

+ Frank Griffin + ftg at roadrunner.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 21:46:40 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
André Machado wrote:
+> Can you reprogram URPMI to download packages from smaller to larger?
+>
+>   
+Given that you want to be installing them as they are downloaded, won't
+the inter-package dependencies dictate the real order ?  I mean, you can
+try installing the smaller ones first, but the first one that requires a
+really large one is going to have to download that before continuing.
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000504.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000504.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..b32466dab --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000504.html @@ -0,0 +1,93 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia?

+ André Machado + afmachado at dcemail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 21:50:45 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
+>From what I understand, to use the name and official logo, we can not
+change the binaries. So far so good, but this part caught my attention:
+
+"In addition, if you are distributing Mozilla binaries yourself, and
+ wish to use the Mozilla Mark(s), you may not
+ (a) disable, modify or otherwise interfere with any installation
+ mechanism contained in a Mozilla product;
+ (b) use any such installation mechanism to install any plug-ins,
+themes, extensions, software, or items other than the Mozilla product; or
+ (c) _use or provide any program, mechanism or process (other than an
+installation mechanism contained in the Mozilla product) to install such
+product_. Any use of a meta-installer would require our prior written
+permission."
+
+Considering that the browser will be packaged in an RPM, I believe that we
+should seek permission for the Mozilla Foundation. Fortunately, the very FAQ
+points to
+https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Marketing&format=trademark
+and has a e-mail adress: trademarks at mozilla.com .
+
+So, I guess that one of project maintainers should oficially send them a message
+asking about this.
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000505.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000505.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..40c3a4b45 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000505.html @@ -0,0 +1,73 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia?

+ Gustavo Giampaoli + giampaoli.gustavo at gmail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 21:53:51 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
I wasn't reading well XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
+
+
+Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980)
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000506.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000506.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..8de228314 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000506.html @@ -0,0 +1,76 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia?

+ Anne nicolas + ennael1 at gmail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 21:55:13 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
As a note, I spoke with Pascal Chevrel today from Mozilla Europe. He
+told me that Debian was going back to use Firefox. Legal issues are
+solved
+
+
+-------
+Anne
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000507.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000507.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..5fa218e24 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000507.html @@ -0,0 +1,82 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] An idea for improve URPMI ;) + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] An idea for improve URPMI ;)

+ André Machado + afmachado at dcemail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 21:56:09 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
I guess what current Mandriva downloads and installs by "dependency groups", eg:
+if a package A must be updated and A depends of B and C, what will be updated
+too, URPMI downloads B, C and A and install them. (Someone to packaging team can
+explain better?) I'm asking if is possible "force" or "make" URPMI create this
+"groups", elect the smaller one and download it, from the smaller to bigger
+package, install it and download the second smaller package group in this same
+order.
+
+Of course, it won't install a group with incomplete dependences.
+
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000508.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000508.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..61de63634 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000508.html @@ -0,0 +1,83 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia?

+ André Machado + afmachado at dcemail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 21:58:17 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
+> 
+> As a note, I spoke with Pascal Chevrel today from Mozilla Europe. He
+> told me that Debian was going back to use Firefox. Legal issues are
+> solved
+> 
+
+
+WOW! STOP THE MACHINES!!!
+
+Have you more details? :D
+
+Whell, the e-mail is: trademarks at mozilla dot com . Sorry ;) .
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000509.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000509.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..d1c4c53a7 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000509.html @@ -0,0 +1,78 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] An idea for improve URPMI ;) + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] An idea for improve URPMI ;)

+ Oliver Burger + oliver.bgr at googlemail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 22:06:10 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
André Machado <afmachado at dcemail.com> schrieb am 2010-09-30
+> I'm asking if is possible "force"
+> or "make" URPMI create this "groups", elect the smaller one and download
+> it, from the smaller to bigger package, install it and download the second
+> smaller package group in this same order.
+The question is: why?
+
+Oliver
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000510.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000510.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..6423d11b6 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000510.html @@ -0,0 +1,119 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Dubeau, Patrick + Patrick.Dubeau at ccq.org +
+ Thu Sep 30 21:42:55 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
> > "A distribution for Newbie" is good, but I think what Graham said is
+> > better.
+> 
+> Well,
+> saying "a distribution for newbies" is not as good as it sound.
+> 
+> If you market the distribution so people think "if you are a newbie,
+> use
+> this distro", people will think "he use this distribution so he is a
+> newbie". This will drive knowledgeable peoples away to others
+> distribution, because they will feel they will learn more by using
+> another distro ( which is wrong ) and because others peoples will
+> appear
+> as more knowledgeable when they use a distro that is not aimed at
+> newbies.
+> 
+> In turn, this mean a diminution of the global expertise in the
+> community. Less expert users to answer to support, less experts users
+> to
+> report bug, fix packages, create softwares or contribute, and to
+> basically teach to new users how to be good community member resulting
+> in less quality, and a less sustainable community.
+> 
+> Apple does it correctly. They never say "we target newbie users".
+> See http://www.apple.com//why-mac/
+> "better computer" "most advanced os" "award winning support" "latest
+> technology" "software you love".
+> 
+> Everything resolve around how they are good, not how beginner you can
+> be.
+> 
+> Or see http://www.apple.com/why-mac/better-os/
+> they say "it is easy", but they never say "it is easy and can be used
+> by
+> a newbie". They say "it is easy and you will learn how to use it fast",
+> which is more positive.
+> 
+> And so I think we should also try to avoid this pitfall, right from the
+> start, if we want to have a thriving sustainable community.
+> 
+> --
+> Michael Scherer
+
+Oh my god you're damn right on this one Michael.
+
+I agree and +1000 on this one. 
+
+You see how perception is really important and we must send the right message
+to future and potential contributors because every new user is a potential
+contributor. Let's not forget that fact.
+
+
+Patrick Dubeau (alias DaaX) - Webmaster MLO
+http://www.mandrivalinux-online.org 
+
+
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000511.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000511.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..acda88680 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000511.html @@ -0,0 +1,95 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia?

+ Graham Lauder + yorick_ at openoffice.org +
+ Thu Sep 30 21:22:26 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
On Friday 01 Oct 2010 08:19:11 André Machado wrote:
+> Years ago, the GNU project recompiled Firefox with a new name - Iceweasel -
+> what is now used on Debian-based distros. Now, the GNU project has your
+> own navigator: IceCat.
+> 
+> Reason was a issue with Firefox logo and names, what are trademarks of
+> Mozilla Foundation.
+> 
+> So, my question: Mageia may use the original Firefox? or will we leave for
+> any of these "alternative" compilations?
+
+
+That is an interesting question, from a personal point of view I would like 
+the Mageia team to throw developer weight behind Konqueror, my favourite 
+browser, especially if we aim at "Best KDE OS". With Opera as a non-free 
+alternative.
+
+From a marketing POV however, Firefox has brand power, one does not throw that 
+away lightly. 
+
+-- 
+Graham Lauder,
+OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
+http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html
+
+OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant.
+
+INGOTs Assessor Trainer
+(International Grades in Open Technologies)
+www.theingots.org
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000512.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000512.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..1e32acc7a --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000512.html @@ -0,0 +1,75 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia?

+ Oliver Burger + oliver.bgr at googlemail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 22:34:05 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
Graham Lauder <yorick_ at openoffice.org> schrieb am 2010-09-30
+> That is an interesting question, from a personal point of view I would like
+> the Mageia team to throw developer weight behind Konqueror, my favourite
+> browser, especially if we aim at "Best KDE OS". With Opera as a non-free
+> alternative.
+That is not a good idea. As a web-developer I can teel you, there's only one 
+browser, which can compete with Firefox's rendering of html and javascript. 
+And that's Chromium.
+
+Oliver
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000513.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000513.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..926b483b8 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000513.html @@ -0,0 +1,140 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Olivier Méjean + omejean at yahoo.fr +
+ Thu Sep 30 22:36:17 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 13:21:04, Graham Lauder a écrit :
+> A group of the marketing and communication peoples got together to get our
+> heads around Vision and  Mission Statement.  Everyone brainstormed what
+>  they saw as the core values of Mageia to give a direction that the
+>  Projects Vision and mission statement could head.
+> 
+> The reasoning behind this is it points a figurative arrow at our  primary
+> target market and thus gives us a guide toward where our branding should be
+> aimed.
+> 
+> A mistake that is often made is branding from an internal aesthetic when in
+> fact branding should be more aimed externally to attract a new demographic.
+> If the gods are in alignment then ideally it should point toward our
+>  principle point of difference and again this influences our branding
+>  choices in terms of Colour Pallet Logo and so forth.
+> 
+> The "feel" to me that came from the brainstorming was that Mageia could be
+> marketed as the "Family Distro".   This being a principle point of
+>  difference when a user makes a decision as to what operating system to
+>  run.
+> 
+> Our principle competitor, MS competes against the Linux universe as a whole
+> but other distros compete for the MS user base aimed at particular
+> Demographics. For instance:
+> OpenSUSE aims at the "Power User" Market
+> Ubuntu aims at the young individual end of the market
+> CentOS at Community enterprise and Not For Profits
+> Fedora at the Computing Professional
+> 
+> Mageia could therefore aim at the Young Married professional market, being
+>  the Distro that could be installed on the home computer and geared so that
+>  the whole family could use it.
+> 
+> So for instance as well as the standard software, educational programmes
+>  would be installed by default, be NetSafe (Dans Guardian), have OOo4Kids
+>  installed as well as a full office suite, Tuxtype, TuxPaint and so on.
+> 
+> Documentation added to show parents how to set up accounts for the kids and
+> how to make it Net safe.
+> 
+> I think that this is an untapped market right now and something that the
+> project could leverage into a marketing campaign and guide us in terms of
+> branding.
+> 
+> Comments?
+> 
+> Cheers
+> GL
+> 
+
+Shouldn't we consider that instead of thinking which target markets are to 
+define, we should consider that Mageia will fit many target markets ? 
+
+It does not means that we must develop one speech. Of course not, we must 
+develop several speeches according to target markets. 
+
+Mandriva is proved to be suitable for many uses, home computers, enterprise 
+desktop, servers, netbook, it could be used by developers, web designers, 
+secretaries, lawyers, kids, grandparents, ... The ease for configuration is 
+really a plus while letting the user configures with editing text files (either 
+using GUI or command line). Mandriva failed to show it and is stuck (sticked?) 
+with its reputation of being a distribution for newbies but not for advanced 
+users
+
+Mageia will mainly inherit this reputation, so let's prove that Mageia will fit 
+all users' needs, newbies like experiented users, developers like lawyers, 
+kids like parents.
+
+So it means having different speeches. So maybe should we try to create several 
+categories of users and then try to find the right message to give them.
+
+-- 
+Olivier Méjean
+Président de l'Association des Utilisateurs Francophones de Mandriva Linux
+http://mandrivafr.org
+twitter : obagoom
+identi.ca : goom
+
+ + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000514.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000514.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..fdb9854e7 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000514.html @@ -0,0 +1,96 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] An idea for improve URPMI ;) + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] An idea for improve URPMI ;)

+ Rémi Verschelde + rverschelde at gmail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 22:38:20 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
As long as you want to install all the updates,
+and even if your connection fluctuates and stops during the download, the
+order doesn't matter much.
+If you can't download all the packages at the first attempt, you just have
+to download the packages in several steps.
+
+Rare are the cases when you urge to update the smallest package and can't
+wait for the others to be downloaded.
+And when that's the case, you just have to select the interesting package
+first, install it and then download the other packages.
+
+2010/9/30 Oliver Burger <oliver.bgr at googlemail.com>
+
+> André Machado <afmachado at dcemail.com> schrieb am 2010-09-30
+> > I'm asking if is possible "force"
+> > or "make" URPMI create this "groups", elect the smaller one and download
+> > it, from the smaller to bigger package, install it and download the
+> second
+> > smaller package group in this same order.
+> The question is: why?
+>
+> Oliver
+> _______________________________________________
+> Mageia-dev mailing list
+> Mageia-dev at mageia.org
+> https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
+>
+-------------- next part --------------
+An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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+
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+

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[Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia?

+ Wolfgang Bornath + molch.b at googlemail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 22:44:26 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
2010/9/30 Oliver Burger <oliver.bgr at googlemail.com>:
+> Graham Lauder <yorick_ at openoffice.org> schrieb am 2010-09-30
+>> That is an interesting question, from a personal point of view I would like
+>> the Mageia team to throw developer weight behind Konqueror, my favourite
+>> browser, especially if we aim at "Best KDE OS". With Opera as a non-free
+>> alternative.
+> That is not a good idea. As a web-developer I can teel you, there's only one
+> browser, which can compete with Firefox's rendering of html and javascript.
+> And that's Chromium.
+
+I agree to Oliver. While I'm working with Chromium browser I do a lot
+of testing of web pages with html/php/js with many different browsers
+on different systems, even Windows 7. Konqueror has never been a
+friend of mine and it is not going to be. Too slow, too many hickups
+with pages all other browsers have no problems with, etc.
+I know that personal preferences are not the same as reasonable
+arguments but those preferences have grown because of reasons.
+
+BTW: Anne wrote earlier in this thread that the problems with Mozilla
+are solved, if so then this issue is not an issue any more,
+
+wobo
+
+ + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000516.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000516.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..d86b90938 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000516.html @@ -0,0 +1,206 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Graham Lauder + yorick_ at openoffice.org +
+ Thu Sep 30 21:50:42 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
On Friday 01 Oct 2010 02:04:26 Marc Paré wrote:
+> Le 2010-09-30 07:21, Graham Lauder a écrit :
+> > A group of the marketing and communication peoples got together to get
+> > our heads around Vision and  Mission Statement.  Everyone brainstormed
+> > what they saw as the core values of Mageia to give a direction that the
+> > Projects Vision and mission statement could head.
+> > 
+> > The reasoning behind this is it points a figurative arrow at our  primary
+> > target market and thus gives us a guide toward where our branding should
+> > be aimed.
+> > 
+> > A mistake that is often made is branding from an internal aesthetic when
+> > in fact branding should be more aimed externally to attract a new
+> > demographic. If the gods are in alignment then ideally it should point
+> > toward our principle point of difference and again this influences our
+> > branding choices in terms of Colour Pallet Logo and so forth.
+> > 
+> > The "feel" to me that came from the brainstorming was that Mageia could
+> > be marketed as the "Family Distro".   This being a principle point of
+> > difference when a user makes a decision as to what operating system to
+> > run.
+> > 
+> > Our principle competitor, MS competes against the Linux universe as a
+> > whole but other distros compete for the MS user base aimed at particular
+> > Demographics. For instance:
+> > OpenSUSE aims at the "Power User" Market
+> > Ubuntu aims at the young individual end of the market
+> > CentOS at Community enterprise and Not For Profits
+> > Fedora at the Computing Professional
+> > 
+> > Mageia could therefore aim at the Young Married professional market,
+> > being the Distro that could be installed on the home computer and geared
+> > so that the whole family could use it.
+> > 
+> > So for instance as well as the standard software, educational programmes
+> > would be installed by default, be NetSafe (Dans Guardian), have OOo4Kids
+> > installed as well as a full office suite, Tuxtype, TuxPaint and so on.
+> > 
+> > Documentation added to show parents how to set up accounts for the kids
+> > and how to make it Net safe.
+> > 
+> > I think that this is an untapped market right now and something that the
+> > project could leverage into a marketing campaign and guide us in terms of
+> > branding.
+> > 
+> > Comments?
+> > 
+> > Cheers
+> > GL
+> 
+> I think that if you target the software packages that are compatible
+> with Educational software advocated by educational organizations, we
+> could make quite large inroads in the adaptability of Mageia.For
+> example, when marketing the OS, emphasis on the distro that can carry
+> your kids through their educational paths with such packages as
+> OpenOffice (soon to be LibreOffice -- make sure the MSWorks plug-in is
+> also included) compatible with MSOffice; GIMP similar to Photoshop and
+> some plugins are compatible; Freemind mindmapping; etc. If Mageia
+> concentrated on making these software packages work solidly then you
+> could have a good run at competing with other linux distros in the
+> educational field.
+
+Indeed, that's why I suggest OOo4Kids.  The go-oo.org version is pretty much 
+essential right now because of it's GoogleDocs/Zoho integration.  Schools are 
+using the cloud as an educational tool more and more. 
+
+> 
+> BTW, in Canada, many school boards still use the Novel Netware setups
+> and they are just now in the midst of planning out its replacement. My
+> school board for example will have to replace close to 10,000 units if
+> they were to move to a Linux setup. I sat in on a meeting about 5 years
+> ago to hear out a RehHat re-seller's pitch. Most school boards are
+> almost at the break point and will be actively looking for new
+> networking/desktop solutions.
+
+Common all over the world and if the school can see that the software used at 
+school is as friendly on the home computer...
+
+> 
+> So, compatibility with educational software. The distro should also be
+> an easy install for everyone and GUI run. If we are going to make it and
+> contend with other distros, the majority of users want a GUI run install
+> where everything works right away. There should be as little fiddling
+> around as possible. Install (15-20 minutes), then, register user
+> accounts, shares for accounts, re-name the computer to instill a sense
+> of ownership to the user (rather than having your computer called
+> "localhost" all the time, and then you are done! (Cups and 3d should be
+> installed automatically during the install phase). Make the install as
+> easy as possible.
+
+When I started using Linux (Mandrake was my first distro and the reason I 
+abandoned Windows) MCC to me, a nongeek, was the killer app.  OpenSuSE's Yast 
+is/was the only real competition.  The ability to administer everything from a 
+GUI is killer for the Ex-windows user.
+
+> 
+> The next is a distro with games and solid multi-player game setups that
+> work. Get the distro to play nice with WOW and other popular games. This
+> will kill the competition and grab kids attention. Have a Mageia games
+> advocate(s) who periodically send out "snazzy" e-newsletters and a
+> "Magei Games Korner" on the website to foster gamesmanship on the
+> distro. Get the kids talking about the "rock-solid" install of WOW (for
+> example) using Wine -- the distro should come "hard wired" to play! and
+> rock!
+
+The critical thing about aiming at a family market is that you are not aiming 
+at Kids.  The target in this market is Mum, she is the power here, the rest of 
+the family follow along meekly. 
+
+
+> 
+> Have a great advocacy group that will stand up to Mageia bashing and
+> hand out comparative studies on the distro's performance and keep the
+> name in the headlines with such sites as LinuxToday.com. Be proactive
+> rather reactive to Linux possibilities of use where it can rationalized
+> as a good replacement desktop distro.
+
+What we have to do is replace the Linux=Ubuntu with Mageia instead of Windows.  
+Linux has already been sold to those who fill the market that needs to know 
+about that, let Ubuntu have that space.  What I would like to see is a 
+decision making process that goes Windows or Mac or Mageia.
+
+> 
+> Sorry for the long note.
+
+A long note is only long when it doesn't say anything, this ain't long, many 
+thanks for your input Marc
+
+> 
+> Cheers
+> 
+> Marc
+> 
+
+Cheers
+GL
+
+-- 
+Graham Lauder,
+OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
+http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html
+
+OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant.
+
+INGOTs Assessor Trainer
+(International Grades in Open Technologies)
+www.theingots.org
+
+ + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000517.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000517.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..2fc1b9048 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000517.html @@ -0,0 +1,104 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?

+ andré + andr55 at laposte.net +
+ Thu Sep 30 23:09:28 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
André Machado a écrit :
+>    
+>> - Display on the welcome screen basic hardware information : Processor,
+>> RAM, video card and the driver currently activated.
+> Can this be done using HTML pages or need some extra tool?
+>    
+>> - A link to sysinfo:// that offers some hardware information that could
+>> fit inside the welcome center as it is a simple HTML layout. On that
+>> page, there can be a link directly to Harddrake to get even more
+>> information. Getting system information easily is actually a thing many
+>> distros miss, apparently.
+> Is this sysinfo:// default or is implemented by any special tool?
+>    
+>> But there should be a warning light on such a welcome center : beware
+>> the windows-like thing. We really need to think about a new and useful
+>> design.
+> Indeed. I guess that Windows Vista/7 has a simmilar tool called Wellcome Center.
+> So, we need think on a better name to avoid lawsuits...
+>    
+Lawsuits ?  Unlikely.  It's a pretty generic name for the function.
+However, it seems to me to be the worst thing we can do is emulate 
+Microsoft.
+We are not a "Microsoft bon marché".
+We must find another name for such a tool.
+The more I think of it, the more I think that we should develop the 
+tools we already have (with Mandriva).
+
+The MCC (Mandriva Control Centre, to become Mageia Control Centre) 
+already has most if not all the hardware configuration elements.
+How about adding an information page to the MCC ?
+This information page could be the default load page, with entry of a 
+password delayed until the user progresses further.
+As you may not know, the MCC is just a script which calls the various 
+configuration pages.
+
+As well, the MCC could use more complete documentation at various 
+points.  Something not very difficult to add, with a bit of work.
+
+- André (andre999)
+
+
+ + + + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000518.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000518.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..c6e8bcdc7 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000518.html @@ -0,0 +1,96 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Wolfgang Bornath + molch.b at googlemail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 23:11:18 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
Reading all this one thing comes to my mind: the world is not the same
+all over the world. Same applies to your assessments of school
+decisions, families and the Linux/WIndows issue.
+
+Over here the public office of a state controlls what computers and
+operating systems are used in schools, money is not a criteria there.
+It is, of course, in the sense that many schools can not have
+computers at all or just 10 machines for a school of 500 students. Ah,
+yes, I'm talking about Germany, not somewhere in central Africa.
+The public office makes deals with Microsoft (sometimes Mr. Gates
+himself came to visit before a new contract was signed), the largest
+local t-com provider sponsors the internet access and the schools have
+no say in that.
+
+The families: if the kid wants a computer then either Dad buys a new
+one and the kids get the old, or they buy a new one but mom has no
+say, it's either Dad or the kids because the parents don't know
+anything about computers.
+
+One of the largest and fastest growing groups of computer users over
+here are people of age, retired persons who visit computer courses in
+the neighborhood center (I'm teaching there sometimes). They are a
+target group also.
+
+I think the one you picked (young couples with kids) are those who are
+the unlikeliest targets - Mom and Dad are working, perhaps with
+computers, most times with Windows. Kids will learn their computer
+knowledge in school, not at home because Mom and Dad have no time for
+that.
+
+See, this is quite different to the picture you are painting, and I
+can imagine that it may be still different in other areas of the
+world.
+
+Therefore picking one target group for a worldwide project like this
+is the wrong way IMHO.
+
+wobo
+
+ + + + + +
+

+ +
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+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000519.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000519.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..b75f97bcf --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000519.html @@ -0,0 +1,76 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?

+ Wolfgang Bornath + molch.b at googlemail.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 23:18:51 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
2010/9/30 andré <andr55 at laposte.net>:
+>
+> The MCC (Mandriva Control Centre, to become Mageia Control Centre) already
+> has most if not all the hardware configuration elements.
+> How about adding an information page to the MCC ?
+
+More like a Documentation&Help section like the other sections. You
+can have an icon for the main Mageia site, one for the local wiki page
+according to the selected language, one for the local forum, etc.
+whatever fits in there.
+
+You can even add an icon for the donation page :)
+
+This is IMHO the most attraccting idea I have read so far. Then the
+MCC should be renamed to "Mageia Central". Like a one-stop shopping
+mall for configuration, information and help.
+
+ + + + + + + + + +
+

+ +
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+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000520.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000520.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..98484c913 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000520.html @@ -0,0 +1,80 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ P. Christeas + p_christ at hol.gr +
+ Thu Sep 30 23:28:16 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
On Thursday 30 September 2010, Michael Scherer wrote:
+> Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 22:05 +0800, Kira a écrit :
+> > "A distribution for Newbie" is good, but I think what Graham said is
+> > better.
+> 
+> Well,
+> saying "a distribution for newbies" is not as good as it sound.
+> 
+> If you market the distribution so people think "if you are a newbie, use
+> this distro", people will think "he use this distribution so he is a
+> newbie". ...
+> 
+> In turn, this mean a diminution of the global expertise in the
+> community....
+
+++
+What about the "easy to learn distro" as a concept?
+
+-- 
+Say NO to spam and viruses. Stop using Microsoft Windows!
+
+ + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000521.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000521.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..0b2bfd9b3 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000521.html @@ -0,0 +1,84 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia?

+ Marc Paré + marc at marcpare.com +
+ Thu Sep 30 23:33:41 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
Le 2010-09-30 15:55, Anne nicolas a écrit :
+> As a note, I spoke with Pascal Chevrel today from Mozilla Europe. He
+> told me that Debian was going back to use Firefox. Legal issues are
+> solved
+>
+>
+> -------
+> Anne
+
+I believe even at the time that Debian had issues with the Firefox 
+brand, that Mozilla didn't really consider it an issue. Mozilla had a 
+harder issues with the Debian re-branding of Firefox. The message they 
+tried to send to the debian community is that there was really not such 
+a big issue over this.
+
+Nice to see its fixed as it takes a little work from the dev's to remove 
+the "brand" out of software and, normally, if you have made it a big 
+deal, then it all has to come out totally. Just imagine the work the 
+Mageia dev's have to go through to remove the "Mandriva" mention from 
+the distro before working on it. I am sure the debian devs are breathing 
+a sigh of relief and shaking their heads over this one.
+
+Marc
+
+
+ + + + + + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000522.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000522.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..c7ec07538 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000522.html @@ -0,0 +1,72 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?

+ P. Christeas + p_christ at hol.gr +
+ Thu Sep 30 23:42:16 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
On Thursday 30 September 2010, André Machado wrote:
+> Honestly, do a poll with the user before he or she uses the system for the
+> first time is a shot in the foot. I think some should appear in the
+> taskbar notification inviting the user to answer some questions when he
+> was online a few days after you have installed the system. 
+
+Agreed, a survey is not a welcome.
+
+From a statistics point of view, IMHO, the best results would come if you 
+could get the user to answer _2_ short (as in non-boring) questionaires: one 
+just before he/she has any experience with the distro, and one a few days 
+later. The first would tell if marketing got the message right and the second 
+would indicate if the distro lives up to its hype.
+
+
+-- 
+Say NO to spam and viruses. Stop using Microsoft Windows!
+
+ + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000523.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000523.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..7ee6cf2e4 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000523.html @@ -0,0 +1,140 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Graham Lauder + yorick_ at openoffice.org +
+ Thu Sep 30 22:41:51 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
On Friday 01 Oct 2010 03:09:25 Frank Griffin wrote:
+> Marc Paré wrote:
+> > Le 2010-09-30 07:21, Graham Lauder a écrit :
+> >> The "feel" to me that came from the brainstorming was that Mageia
+> >> could be
+> >> marketed as the "Family Distro".
+> > 
+> > I think that if you target the software packages that are compatible
+> > with Educational software advocated by educational organizations, we
+> > could make quite large inroads in the adaptability of Mageia.
+> 
+> I think that these are endeavors for an entity which is exactly what
+> we've just got done saying Mageia *isn't*, namely a commercial venture.
+
+In a phrase: Horse Doo doo (not exactly what I wanted to say but I wanted to 
+protect the "G" rating!  :)  )  This is not about commercial, it's about 
+market.  
+
+Mageia has a donation system, in my culture the nearest thing is called Koha 
+(Yes the name of the open source Library Management Software) It is a sort of 
+open source value assignation system, it's not that it is "cost free" but more 
+that it's "Cost optional" and the simple fact that we have a donation system 
+in place means we follow this model.  Branding is also about this but we'll 
+come back to that. 
+
+We do this because at the end of the day infrastructure costs, marketing 
+costs, a whole pile of things cost.  One day some patch or application, which 
+is essential but completely non-sexy could require us to pay a dev on contract 
+and so on and so forth.  
+
+Now our problem is that in these days of "everything free off the Internet" 
+getting Koha is problematic. However there is, obviously, a proportion of the 
+market that is willing to give Koha.  That proportion in a market is generally 
+but arguably fixed, so the bigger the market the greater the Koha.  Our 
+advantage is that our "costs" vary little with the size of the market.
+
+There could be an argument made that "Cost Optional" is a commercial model, 
+but a commercial model demands profit margins and I don't think that's where 
+we're at.
+
+> 
+> Currently, the package inventory of Mandriva is fairly all-inclusive,
+> and I don't think we should abandon any specific interest group.
+> Mandriva may have to do this to remain commercially viable - we do not.
+> 
+> However, let me try to translate your desires into a more technical
+> objective that would meet the need..
+> 
+> Traditionally, the MDV ISO-building process has been complex, not
+> well-documented, and difficult for anyone outside of MDV to use.
+
+[.................]
+
+>  You want it, you design it, you press the button
+> and build it.
+
+> 
+> It should not be too difficult to write a utility that goes through a
+> content list and automatically updates the package names to newer
+> versions, so maintenance could be minimal.  Of course, you'd need to
+> fire up the build utility to see if there are new package requirements
+> or if you've exceeded your space constraint.
+
+
+There is already a way of doing that, it's called OBS (OpenSUSE Build service, 
+it's free software, install it or in fact use it) and with that and SUSE 
+Studio, OpenSUSE have that corner of the market targeted and nailed.   
+
+[....]
+
+
+Cheers
+GL
+
+-- 
+Graham Lauder,
+OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
+http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html
+
+OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant.
+
+INGOTs Assessor Trainer
+(International Grades in Open Technologies)
+www.theingots.org
+
+ + + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000524.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000524.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..baca4dfda --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000524.html @@ -0,0 +1,122 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center? + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?

+ andré + andr55 at laposte.net +
+ Thu Sep 30 23:56:00 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
atilla ontas a écrit :
+> 2010/9/30 Robert Xu<robxu9 at gmail.com>:
+>    
+>> On Sep 30, 2010, at 5:23, Michael Scherer<misc at zarb.org>  wrote:
+>>
+>>      
+>>> Le mercredi 29 septembre 2010 à 20:53 -0400, Ireneusz Gierlach a écrit :
+>>>        
+>>>> I just hope there won't be a survey when you first install, because if
+>>>> you have no internet it doesn't let you do anything. You have to like go
+>>>> to console and do not cool stuff. I guess as long as it is not invasive
+>>>> it will be fine.
+>>>>          
+>>> Then we need to fix it so it cope with no internet access, not disable
+>>> it.
+>>>        
+>> Maybe the first time connected to the internet the survey should appear?
+>>
+>> -- later, Robert Xu
+>>      
+> Why we' re talking about a survey? Do we need this? We are not a
+> company and think about customer happiness. I thought this thread is
+> about a informational and/or assistance application for newbies.
+>
+> If we' re talking about a Welcome Center, we should decide if it is
+> only an informative html page or an assistance to configure basic
+> things or both.
+> ____
+>    
+Don't forget that (under Mandriva) there already is a routine to 
+configure the system when one installs or upgrades.  I see it every 6 
+months, with a new version of Mandriva.
+However, it is not very user-friendly for a novice, and doesn't have 
+very complete help for advanced users.
+My initial reaction to this idea was that the existing functions would 
+be improved by a welcome centre.
+But the more I think about it, I'm reminded of the "Bob" routine and the 
+"What do you want to do today" slogan of Microsoft.  Neither lasted very 
+long.
+The last think we want to do is "dumb down" Mageia.  That will turn off 
+a lot more people than it will attract, in my view.
+What will help is a more complete help system on install, much like 
+Ubuntu already has.  Mandriva has many assets, this is just one of the 
+weaker points.
+The way Mandriva works now, all the applications listed in the suggested 
+"welcome centre" can be readily installed (at least an equivalent by 
+default in most cases), and the default menu system lists every gui 
+application installed.
+Maybe a guided tour is a good idea, but with the large variety of 
+applications available and the various desktops, it is a lot more 
+complicated than the one-size-fits-all environnement of Microsoft.
+
+An idea just came to mind -- instead of a "welcome centre",
+having an option to show the descriptions with the name of each item in 
+a menu page.
+Currently the description (or comment) only appears on hovering over the 
+item name, which is fine for those already familiar with their Mageia 
+installation.
+However being able to see all the descriptions at once in the menu page 
+would be really useful for novices.
+And it wouldn't be "dumbing down" Mageia.
+As well as being very easy to implement, as the descriptions are 
+normally already there and localised.  (That is part of the XDG menu 
+specs, the norm used by Mandriva, and many other distros.)
+Just an idea ...
+
+- André (andre999)
+
+ + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000525.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000525.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..f0e7f1f39 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000525.html @@ -0,0 +1,157 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Graham Lauder + yorick_ at openoffice.org +
+ Thu Sep 30 23:02:42 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
On Friday 01 Oct 2010 02:34:08 Thorsten van Lil wrote:
+> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
+> Von: mageia-dev-bounces at mageia.org [mailto:mageia-dev-bounces at mageia.org]
+> Im Auftrag von Graham Lauder
+> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 30. September 2010 13:21
+> An: Mageia development mailing-list
+> Betreff: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
+> 
+>>A mistake that is often made is branding from an internal aesthetic when
+>>in fact branding should be more aimed externally to attract a new
+>>demographic.
+>>
+>>If the gods are in alignment then ideally it should point toward our 
+>> principle point of difference and again this influences our branding      
+>> choices in terms of Colour Pallet Logo and so forth.
+> 
+> This point is a bit difficult to me, as we (as the community) are the
+> internal and external in one. We create the distribution for us (the whole
+> community) and try enlarge the community.
+
+There is a balancing act of course and all one can do is reiterate the concept 
+so that when people make a decision they take it into account.  But then 
+that's my job, because at first the marketing is always aimed inward.  For 
+this concept it's actually not that hard, all I'm asking people to think about 
+is:  "Would your Mother like this branding?" because at the end of the day 
+that's who the target is,  the vast majority of family purchase decisions are 
+made by the mother. 
+
+> 
+> For example, afaik nearly 75% of the mandriva user (and there for Mageia
+> user) use KDE. If we for example aim an group of people which KDE doesn't
+> fit, we will probably loose more users the win new users. That's the tricky
+> part of a community distro I think ;)
+
+Ubuntu has done well, being focused on Gnome.  I do like the suggestion that 
+we should be the Best KDE OS, it's a good focus. 
+
+> 
+>>The "feel" to me that came from the brainstorming was that Mageia could be
+>>marketed as the "Family Distro".  This being a principle point of difference
+>>when a user makes a decision as to what operating system to run.
+> 
+> Although I don't count myself to this group, I'm totally fine with the idea
+> and see that it is a nearly untapped market. But on the otherside: how big
+> could this market be?
+
+Huge. 
+
+> 
+> >So for instance as well as the standard software, educational programmes
+> 
+> would
+> 
+> >be installed by default, be NetSafe (Dans Guardian), have OOo4Kids
+> 
+> installed
+> 
+> >as well as a full office suite, Tuxtype, TuxPaint and so on.
+> 
+> Here I see some problems:
+> If we release a LiveCD and a DVD (like Mandriva does), there will be enough
+> space on the LiveCD for extra software. On the DVD there is enough space I
+> think, but is it for example really necessary to ship to office suits, just
+> to define our aimed market?
+
+On a DVD there would be room, especially we concentrated on a single major DE, 
+but that is a packaging issue
+
+> 
+> >Documentation added to show parents how to set up accounts for the kids
+> >and
+> >
+> >how to make it Net safe.
+> 
+> That's a really cool idea! As we also debate about a welcome center, there
+> should definitely be a link in it, to that kind of documentation.
+> 
+> I think that the normal home user and a young family have nearly the same
+> requirements. Both need an easy to install and maintain and use system (yes
+> I know: who doesn't want this). Maybe we can create a distribution which
+> fits such requirements and specialize to the family with meta-packages,
+> special documentation and tools for them?
+
+
+
+> 
+> Regards,
+> TeaAge
+> 
+
+Cheers
+GL
+-- 
+Graham Lauder,
+OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
+http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html
+
+OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant.
+
+INGOTs Assessor Trainer
+(International Grades in Open Technologies)
+www.theingots.org
+
+ + +
+

+ +
+More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list
+ diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000526.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000526.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..19e54adbb --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/20100930/000526.html @@ -0,0 +1,87 @@ + + + + [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets + + + + + + + + + +

[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets

+ Graham Lauder + yorick_ at openoffice.org +
+ Thu Sep 30 23:15:00 CEST 2010 +

+
+ +
On Friday 01 Oct 2010 03:05:26 Kira wrote:
+
+> 
+> Just saying that Mageia can do anything would make new comers wonder:
+> 
+> So, what's the difference Mageia had toward other distribution?
+> 
+> We can still list out what Mageia can do, but some personality is
+> 
+> definitely needed, 
+
+Cool Kira,
+
+I love the concept of "Personality", that's what branding should do: Highlight 
+the Personality and Personality is a strong attractor in this market
+
+Define that personality and that guides branding elements such as Logo and 
+mascot. 
+
+Cheers
+GL
+
+-- 
+Graham Lauder,
+OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
+http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html
+
+OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant.
+
+INGOTs Assessor Trainer
+(International Grades in Open Technologies)
+www.theingots.org
+
+ + +
+

+ +
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