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diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/2011-August/007587.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/2011-August/007587.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..2b6ae3733 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-dev/2011-August/007587.html @@ -0,0 +1,238 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-dev] [lsb-discuss] [fedora-arm] ARM summit at Plumbers 2011 + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20%5Blsb-discuss%5D%20%5Bfedora-arm%5D%20ARM%20summit%20at%20Plumbers%0A%092011&In-Reply-To=%3C20110826213641.GA8671%40www5.open-std.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="007586.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="007493.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-dev] [lsb-discuss] [fedora-arm] ARM summit at Plumbers 2011</H1> + <B>keld at keldix.com</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-dev%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-dev%5D%20%5Blsb-discuss%5D%20%5Bfedora-arm%5D%20ARM%20summit%20at%20Plumbers%0A%092011&In-Reply-To=%3C20110826213641.GA8671%40www5.open-std.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-dev] [lsb-discuss] [fedora-arm] ARM summit at Plumbers 2011">keld at keldix.com + </A><BR> + <I>Fri Aug 26 23:36:41 CEST 2011</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="007586.html">[Mageia-dev] [fedora-arm] ARM summit at Plumbers 2011 +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="007493.html">[Mageia-dev] Fwd: [Mageia-discuss] PROPOSAL: so, you are already contributor, do you want to be maintainer? +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#7587">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#7587">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#7587">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#7587">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>I would relly like the dscussion to go on widely as it is now. +Otherwise I would probably not follow this interesting discussion. + +best regards +keld + +On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 10:02:09PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: +><i> russell, good to hear from you. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> can i recommend, that although this is a really wide set of +</I>><i> cross-posting on a discussion that underpins pretty much everything +</I>><i> (except gnu/hurd and minix) because it's linux kernel, that, just as +</I>><i> steve kindly advised, we keep this to e.g. +</I>><i> <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">cross-distro at lists.linaro.org</A>? i'll be doing that from now on [after +</I>><i> this] perhaps including arm-netbooks as well, but will be taking off +</I>><i> all the distros. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> so - folks, let's be clear: please move this discussion to +</I>><i> <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">cross-distro at lists.linaro.org</A>, and, if it's worthwhile discussing in +</I>><i> person, please do contact steve, so he can keep the slot open at the +</I>><i> Plumbers 2011 summit. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 5:35 PM, Russell King - ARM Linux +</I>><i> <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">linux at arm.linux.org.uk</A>> wrote: +</I>><i> > On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:11:41AM -0500, Bill Gatliff wrote: +</I>><i> >> As such refactoring consolidated larger and larger chunks of kernel +</I>><i> >> code, new designs would gravitate towards those consolidated +</I>><i> >> implementations because they would be the dominant references. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > Don't bet on it. ??That's not how it works (unfortunately.) +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > Just look at the many serial port inventions dreamt up by SoC designers - +</I>><i> > everyone is different from each other. ??Now consider: why didn't they use +</I>><i> > a well established standard 16550A or later design? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> *sigh* because they wanted to save power. or pins. or... just be +</I>><i> bloody-minded. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> > This "need to be different" is so heavily embedded in the mindset of the +</I>><i> > hardware people that I doubt "providing consolidated implementations" +</I>><i> > will make the blind bit of difference. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> i think... russell... after they are told, repeatedly, "no, you can't +</I>><i> have that pile of junk in the mainline linux kernel, Get With The +</I>><i> Programme", you'd think that, cumulatively if they end up having to +</I>><i> maintain a 6mb patch full of such shit, they _might_ get with the +</I>><i> programme? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> and if they don't, well.... who honestly cares? if they don't, it's +</I>><i> not *your* problem, is it? _they_ pay their employees to continue to +</I>><i> main a pile of junk, instead of spongeing off of _your_ time (and +</I>><i> linus's, and everyone else's in the Free Software Community). +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> > ??I doubt that hardware people +</I>><i> > coming up with these abominations even care one bit about what's in +</I>><i> > the kernel. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> then don't f******g make it _your_ problem, or anyone else's, upstream!! :) +</I>><i> +</I>><i> this is the core of the proposal that i have been advocating: if it's +</I>><i> "selfish", i.e. as bill and many many others clearly agree with "if +</I>><i> the bang-per-buck ratio is on the low side" then keep it *out* the +</I>><i> mainline linux kernel... +</I>><i> +</I>><i> ... and that really is the end of the matter. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> the sensible people that i've been talking to about this are truly +</I>><i> puzzled as to why the principles of "cooperation and collaboration" +</I>><i> behind free software are just being... completely ignored, in +</I>><i> something as vital as The Linux Kernel, and they feel that it's really +</I>><i> blindingly obvious that the "bang-per-buck" ratio of patches to +</I>><i> mainline linux kernel need to go up. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> so the core of the proposal that is the proposed +</I>><i> "selfish-vs-cooperation patch policy" is quite simple: if the patch +</I>><i> has _some_ evidence of collaboration, cooperation, refactoring, +</I>><i> sharing - *anything* that increases the bang-per-buck ratio with +</I>><i> respect to the core fundamental principles of Free Software - it goes +</I>><i> to the next phase [which is technical evaluation etc. etc.]. +</I>><i> otherwise, it's absolutely out, regardless of its technical +</I>><i> correctness, and that's the end of it. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> the linux kernel mainline source tree should *not* be a +</I>><i> dumping-ground for a bunch of selfish self-centred pathological +</I>><i> profit-mongering corporations whose employees end up apologising in +</I>><i> sheer embarrassment as they submit time-pressured absolutely shit +</I>><i> non-cooperative and impossible-to-maintain code. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> you're not the only one, russell, who is pissed off at having to tidy +</I>><i> up SoC vendors' patches. there's another ARM-Linux guy, forget his +</I>><i> name, specialises in samsung: two years ago he said that he was +</I>><i> getting fed up with receiving yet another pile of rushed junk... and +</I>><i> that's *just* him, specialising in samsung ARM SoCs! +</I>><i> +</I>><i> we're just stunned that you, the recipient of _multiple_ SoC vendors +</I>><i> piles of shite, have tolerated this for so long! +</I>><i> +</I>><i> anyway - i've endeavoured to put together some examples, in case +</I>><i> that's not clear: i admit it's quite hard to create clear examples, +</I>><i> and would greatly appreciate help doing so. i've had some very much +</I>><i> appreciated help from one of the openwrt developers (thanks!) +</I>><i> clarifying by creating another example that's similar to one which +</I>><i> wasn't clear. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> <A HREF="http://lkcl.net/linux/linux-selfish.vs.cooperation.html">http://lkcl.net/linux/linux-selfish.vs.cooperation.html</A> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> this should be _fun_, guys. it shouldn't be a chore. if you're not +</I>><i> enjoying it, and not being paid, tell the people who are clearly +</I>><i> taking the piss to f*** off! +</I>><i> +</I>><i> but - i also would like to underscore this with another idea: "lead +</I>><i> by example" (which is why i've kept the large cross-distro list) we - +</I>><i> the free software community - are seeing tons of nice lovely android +</I>><i> tablets, tons of nice lovely expensive bits of big iron and/or x86 +</I>><i> laptops, and only in very small areas (OpenRD Ultimate, GuruPlug, +</I>><i> Pandaboard, IMX53QSB, Origen) are our needs for actual hardware which +</I>><i> _we_ want (and i'm *not* being presumptious here - i'm inviting people +</I>><i> to *say* what they want) just aren't being met. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> who wants a bloody 800x600 VIA VunnnderMedia ARM9 350mhz tablet, to +</I>><i> do linux kernel and gnu/linux distribution development on, _anyway_??? +</I>><i> and who the hell wants only 512mb of RAM (iMX51). and who in their +</I>><i> right fucking mind dreamed up that 1024x600 LCD panel size? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> so here's what i propose: +</I>><i> +</I>><i> we, The Free Software Community, want Our Figureheads (linus, bruce, +</I>><i> alan, russell) to call us to arms (so to speak), to band together a la +</I>><i> KickStarter <A HREF="http://kickstarter.org">http://kickstarter.org</A> (or other), so that we can create +</I>><i> the hardware platform(s) that *we* want, and, in the process, can take +</I>><i> the opportunity to sort out the Linux Kernel mainline tree in the +</I>><i> process (learning by doing, doing by leading, leading by example etc. +</I>><i> etc.) +</I>><i> +</I>><i> apart from anything - and this goes to you, linus and russell - i +</I>><i> think that you would be much happier taking a break from doing git +</I>><i> patch conflict management, _actually_ getting down and dirty with some +</I>><i> real device driver writing, and i think you'd be much happier doing +</I>><i> that knowing that the device you were writing those kernel drivers for +</I>><i> was something that actual real free software developers really really +</I>><i> wanted. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> now, as i said above: i don't _dare_ to presume that i know what +</I>><i> actual real free software developers want, in terms of hardware, but +</I>><i> there's a small sampling on the debian-arm mailing list... let me drop +</I>><i> you roughly in the middle of it, here: +</I>><i> <A HREF="http://lists.debian.org/debian-arm/2011/08/msg00045.html">http://lists.debian.org/debian-arm/2011/08/msg00045.html</A> mostly that +</I>><i> was focussed around those little engineering boards (panda, IMX53QSB, +</I>><i> origen etc.) but my aim here is to get people to think: +</I>><i> +</I>><i> what hardware, which is fully free-software-compliant, that you would +</I>><i> buy and recommend to others, that could also be attractive in +</I>><i> mass-volume, do _you_ want to see, that would be useful to _you_? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> i'm getting fed up of seeing stuff come out of factories that's +</I>><i> completely useless. or gpl-violating. and/or requires +</I>><i> reverse-engineering. +</I>><i> <A HREF="http://lkcl.net/linux/ideal-vs-reality.of.product.development.html">http://lkcl.net/linux/ideal-vs-reality.of.product.development.html</A> for +</I>><i> some background. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> as a free software developer, what hardware do YOU want? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> answers on this one to <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">arm-netbooks at lists.phcomp.co.uk</A> (subscription +</I>><i> required, please remember) +</I>><i> +</I>><i> and, lastly - linus, russell, alan, bruce: there are people out there +</I>><i> who would really appreciate if you could take up this call. not just +</I>><i> me. we'd like to see you using your skills, and actually be happy and +</I>><i> enjoy doing nitty-gritty linux kernel development, to the benefit of +</I>><i> the free software community, instead of turning into patch +</I>><i> junkies^H^H^H^H^H^Hmonkeys^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hmanagers. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> l. +</I>><i> _______________________________________________ +</I>><i> lsb-discuss mailing list +</I>><i> <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">lsb-discuss at lists.linux-foundation.org</A> +</I>><i> <A HREF="https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lsb-discuss">https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lsb-discuss</A> +</I></PRE> + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="007586.html">[Mageia-dev] [fedora-arm] ARM summit at Plumbers 2011 +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="007493.html">[Mageia-dev] Fwd: [Mageia-discuss] PROPOSAL: so, you are already contributor, do you want to be maintainer? +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#7587">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#7587">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#7587">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#7587">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev">More information about the Mageia-dev +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> |