diff options
| author | Nicolas Vigier <boklm@mageia.org> | 2013-04-14 13:46:12 +0000 |
|---|---|---|
| committer | Nicolas Vigier <boklm@mageia.org> | 2013-04-14 13:46:12 +0000 |
| commit | 1be510f9529cb082f802408b472a77d074b394c0 (patch) | |
| tree | b175f9d5fcb107576dabc768e7bd04d4a3e491a0 /zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101020/002495.html | |
| parent | fa5098cf210b23ab4f419913e28af7b1b07dafb2 (diff) | |
| download | archives-master.tar archives-master.tar.gz archives-master.tar.bz2 archives-master.tar.xz archives-master.zip | |
Diffstat (limited to 'zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101020/002495.html')
| -rw-r--r-- | zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101020/002495.html | 234 |
1 files changed, 234 insertions, 0 deletions
diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101020/002495.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101020/002495.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..3e065ca18 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101020/002495.html @@ -0,0 +1,234 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3C1287573312.3051.45.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002490.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002496.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection</H1> + <B>Michael Scherer</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20logo%20proposals%20and%20selection&In-Reply-To=%3C1287573312.3051.45.camel%40akroma.ephaone.org%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection">misc at zarb.org + </A><BR> + <I>Wed Oct 20 13:15:12 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002490.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002496.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2495">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2495">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2495">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2495">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>Le mercredi 20 octobre 2010 à 14:26 +1300, Graham Lauder a écrit : +><i> On Tuesday 19 Oct 2010 11:38:39 Michael Scherer wrote: +</I>><i> > Le mardi 19 octobre 2010 à 09:06 +1300, Graham Lauder a écrit : +</I>><i> > > On Tuesday 19 Oct 2010 04:27:29 Frank Griffin wrote: +</I>><i> > > > In FOSS, it doesn't. If enough people agree with your objective, you +</I>><i> > > > may find that you have enough critical mass to produce a derived distro +</I>><i> > > > with a face and personality which matches your objectives. +</I>><i> > > +</I>><i> > > This is one of the interesting elements of FOSS marketing that I've +</I>><i> > > talked about in the past. That Marketing department, which in a +</I>><i> > > corporate world always has the ear of management more so than the +</I>><i> > > Development people simply because of human interaction capabilities, has +</I>><i> > > to turn it's focus inward. The problem is, an one I've been trying to +</I>><i> > > avoid here, is that it becomes insular to the exclusion of all else and +</I>><i> > > then the community stagnates and spirals into irrelevancy. For the +</I>><i> > > community to grow there has to be a dynamism, (and I'm talking grow in +</I>><i> > > terms of the community of contributors) Userland is the big billboard +</I>><i> > > of that dynamism. Ubuntu for all it's faults and annoyances has taught +</I>><i> > > us one thing, high visibility in Userland attracts contributors. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > Then what Fedora and Debian has taught us ? +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > Because AFAIK there is also lots of contributors in Fedora, as there is +</I>><i> > in Debian, and I think they didn't really choose the high visibility +</I>><i> > path to get them. So I do not think we can really find a direct +</I>><i> > correlation between "ubuntu has lots of users" and "there is lots of +</I>><i> > contribution". +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Debian is an interesting case in viral marketing in a highly interconnected +</I>><i> demographic. I always remember the "OMG we have a new release!" that used to +</I>><i> race round the maillists and Usergroups. It never really had a market share, +</I>><i> rather it had almost a monopoly in its chosen demographic. It is deliberately +</I>><i> eclectic and famously stubborn and being part of the community is as important +</I>><i> as the software itself, I mean he named it after his wife and himself, Deb and +</I>><i> Ian, how cool is that. It was just that attitude that endeared it to it's +</I>><i> chosen community and good on them. Slackware and Gentoo have a similar ethic. +</I>><i> And more power to them. It wasn't until Ubuntu came along that Debian gained +</I>><i> much in the way of widespread traction. However it was it's obsession with +</I>><i> stability that attracted the Mark. They could afford to break things because +</I>><i> they had this super stable backstop, but at the end of the day, Debian counts +</I>><i> the Ubuntu user as it's community, I would be interested to know how many more +</I>><i> developers Debian picked up in the wake of Ubuntu's popularity, I certainly +</I>><i> know quite a few. Certainly HPs support was post Ubuntu startup +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Fedora has the benefit of age, being around a long time and focusing in the +</I>><i> corporate space is a good way to lift profile in your preferred market. I +</I>><i> don't have any figures unfortunately but I would suspect many came from Red +</I>><i> Hat sites. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> In any case, both are in fact very small in terms of the whole desktop market +</I>><i> and even in terms of all developers. +</I> +Small in term of direct users, but they are the one with the more +contributers, and therefor, the one that are likely to survive in the +long term. And while it is not a stated goal of Mageia, I hope it is +obvious to everybody that we ( aka the founders ) forked the project +because we wanted it to survive in case of problem on Mandriva side. + +If we look at the number of contributers in the overall free software +distribution community. I think that Debian and Fedora are one of the +biggest one. + +The fedora account system tell me there is 21000 members in the group of +people who signed the contributer level agreement ( CLA ), around 1100 +in the packager group, around 100 in the marketing group. I suspect that +opening a account is required to edit the wiki or something like that, +hence the high number of accounts. + +A quick search on debian ldap directory ( ldapsearch -x -H +<A HREF="ldap://db.debian.org">ldap://db.debian.org</A> -b ou=users,dc=debian,dc=org +'(objectClass=debianAccount)' ) tell me there is around 1650 accounts, +which roughly translate to the same number of packagers for the time +being. + +Ubuntu "only" have 650 people in the ubuntu-member group +( <A HREF="https://launchpad.net/~ubuntumembers">https://launchpad.net/~ubuntumembers</A> ), which is a superset of the +various groups. There is 160 people who can upload to Universe ( ie, +their version of what mandriva called "contribs" ) +( <A HREF="https://launchpad.net/~universe-contributors">https://launchpad.net/~universe-contributors</A> ), and there was 970 who +subscribed to have their packages reviewed +( <A HREF="https://launchpad.net/~revu-uploaders">https://launchpad.net/~revu-uploaders</A> ). + +When you compare to the 3000 people who committed to gnome since the +beggining ( source, gnome census of Dave Neary ), the 500 currently +active contributers of kde +( <A HREF="http://www.kdenews.org/2009/07/14/growth-metrics-kde-contributors">http://www.kdenews.org/2009/07/14/growth-metrics-kde-contributors</A> ) or +the 700 who contributed to 2.6.20 ( <A HREF="http://lwn.net/Articles/222773/">http://lwn.net/Articles/222773/</A> ), +you see the number are not much different. + +So while they may be small in term of market of users, they are the one +who successfully attracted some of the biggest community of +contributers. + +And attracting contributors is the key of the sustainability we should +aim. + +><i> > +</I>><i> > My own opinion is that Canonical pay 5 people full time to take care of +</I>><i> > the community growth +</I>><i> > ( <A HREF="http://www.jonobacon.org/2010/07/26/the-five-horsemen/">http://www.jonobacon.org/2010/07/26/the-five-horsemen/</A> ), and that's +</I>><i> > the main reason for contribution from outsiders. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Tsk a badly dressed marketing team ;) +</I> +Nope. +The team of Jono have been quite concerned with organisation ( see the +various track at UDS ), they produced some code to help on various level +( acire, python-snippet ), wrote some documentations ( for the various +community process ) and they also try to act as mediator ( see Jono +book, chapter 9 ) when there is a conflict. + +This IMHO exceed the scope of a marketing team. + + +><i> I'm not denying that marketing to +</I>><i> bring in Code Contributors is a necessary thing and in fact we've already +</I>><i> identified this group as our initial, primary target market, however the fact +</I>><i> that Ubuntu is high profile out in the market place gives Jono and crew a hell +</I>><i> of a lot more leverage to bring in new talent. +</I> +They do not seem to attract so much new talent, if we look at the +metrics I gave before. Or at least, they are not more successful that +Fedora or Gentoo ( back in the day when Gentoo was all the rage, some +years ago in 2005 ). Of course, they are more successful than we were in +Mandriva, so that's not bad either. + + +><i> > The same goes for +</I>><i> > Fedora and Redhat +</I>><i> > ( <A HREF="http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CommunityArchitecture">http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CommunityArchitecture</A> ) +</I>><i> +</I>><i> It's interesting that you point to that URL, I'm a big believer in the Biology +</I>><i> of Community that the Fedora guys talk about. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> The principle idea behind it is that once a community reaches a critical mass +</I>><i> it becomes self sustaining, in the case of the Mageia community that would be +</I>><i> the point where you could remove all of the founders from the mix and it would +</I>><i> keep going. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> To me that requires a whole community, it is a holistic beast. Yes you can +</I>><i> continue a community that rides on the coat tails of a single person or core +</I>><i> group but is it self sustaining. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Fedora has reached this point I think and would continue if RedHat was removed +</I>><i> from the equation. +</I> +Time may tell us sooner than we think. + +><i> Would Ubuntu continue without Shuttleworth and Canonical, +</I>><i> I'm not sure, but I reckon they are a long way toward it. OOo wasn't, but +</I>><i> LibreOffice has the opportunity to be. Debian, I don't know the community +</I>><i> well enough to comment. +</I> +There was a point were the Debian infrastructure was almost forked some +years ago, according to a story I heard in Zurich ( but I do not have +public source ). And there was also the old rumors of a Debian fork in +2003 ( <A HREF="http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2003/08/msg00389.html">http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2003/08/msg00389.html</A> ), +which may have lead or be fueled by the creation of Ubuntu at that time. + + +><i> The point is that community goes right across the spectrum of users +</I>><i> Not enough of the community at the User end of the spectrum is as untenable as +</I>><i> not enough at the Makers end. The trick is balance, that's what the Fedora +</I>><i> project has taught us +</I> +Then the balance decided by Fedora is not really in favor of people in +the User end, if we look at this interview : +<A HREF="http://howsoftwareisbuilt.com/2008/12/21/interview-with-jeroen-van-meeuwen-fedora-project-vice-president-fedora-emea/">http://howsoftwareisbuilt.com/2008/12/21/interview-with-jeroen-van-meeuwen-fedora-project-vice-president-fedora-emea/</A> + +"Jeroen: One of the big, essential differences between Fedora and other +distributions is that we’d rather gain one contributor than a dozen +users. In fact, if I could lose 1000 users right now and gain a +contributor, I’d do it. It’s not up to me, but if it were, I’d do it." + +-- +Michael Scherer + +</PRE> + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002490.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002496.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia logo proposals and selection +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2495">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2495">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2495">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2495">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> |