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diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-i18n/2012-May/002920.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-i18n/2012-May/002920.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..b66717572 --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-i18n/2012-May/002920.html @@ -0,0 +1,196 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-i18n] www pages: about and main index + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-i18n%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-i18n%5D%20www%20pages%3A%20about%20and%20main%20index&In-Reply-To=%3Cop.wevt27nbl2zvei%40localhost%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002919.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002921.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-i18n] www pages: about and main index</H1> + <B>Yuri Chornoivan</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-i18n%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-i18n%5D%20www%20pages%3A%20about%20and%20main%20index&In-Reply-To=%3Cop.wevt27nbl2zvei%40localhost%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-i18n] www pages: about and main index">yurchor at ukr.net + </A><BR> + <I>Fri May 25 23:02:57 CEST 2012</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002919.html">[Mageia-i18n] www pages: about and main index +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002921.html">[Mageia-i18n] www pages: about and main index +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2920">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2920">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2920">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2920">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>написане Fri, 25 May 2012 22:49:37 +0300, Romain d'Alverny +<<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-i18n">rdalverny at gmail.com</A>>: + +><i> On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Yuri Chornoivan <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-i18n">yurchor at ukr.net</A>> wrote: +</I>>><i> Just of curiosity, a couple of questions. +</I>>><i> +</I>>><i> 1. What was the reason to choose unsustainable format that is not +</I>>><i> recognized +</I>>><i> by the existing toolchains (lang)? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> My past experience with gettext (4 years, I dropped it about 3 years +</I>><i> ago, things may have changed since) has been terrible (mostly, because +</I>><i> gettext is [was?] not thread-safe and the server implementation made +</I>><i> that hugely problematic). So we had erratic server behaviour regarding +</I>><i> locale management on our websites. +</I> +I am not telling about server side at all. Why not extract all the strings +form these .lang files into reliable format. It should be deadly easy with +the current format (drop two lines and extract every line with ";" at the +beginning. It can be done even via PHP. Then generate .lang for locales +using cron with minimal task priority. + +No mistakes in quotation, no formatting breaks, no extra manual job, no +additional load on server for every single translation update, no +additional pages with lists, no wiki explanations, just tell the +translators the name of the directory in SVN and the single pot file +(generated by cron). + +><i> I could have migrated to .po files nonetheless and use a library +</I>><i> reimplementing gettext over it. But frankly, the past struggles with +</I>><i> gettext (in a Web context - it does perfectly its job in a local app +</I>><i> context) made me want to try something else, lighter (so less featured +</I>><i> as well obviously). I know Mozilla used to have .lang files too, I +</I>><i> checked it out a bit and thought it would be worth the try; and +</I>><i> perhaps would we be able to reuse their own libs in this regard. +</I>><i> +</I>>><i> 2. Consider someone decided to change something on a webpage. How can we +</I>>><i> (translators) know about the changes (Manually parse svn diffs, copy and +</I>>><i> paste diffs from PHP page? What about fuzzy matches?) ? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> First, someone would be identified - I commit about 95% of what goes +</I>><i> on www, 5 other percent are between obgr and dams. That's for the +</I>><i> code, content, layout, etc. (I'm not happy with this either). I wrote +</I>><i> quickly report and diff utilities so you can have a look (and we can +</I>><i> rework them, just tell me how), but I expect to sneak peak at +</I>><i> Mozilla's codebase. +</I> +Thanks. Great work, imho. + +But with all respect, Mozilla (currently) has some language teams with +number of members that exceeds the number of all Mageia translators. They +can waste their resources, at least in the current state. + +><i> So, upon modified or added contents on a webpage, that would happen in +</I>><i> English only (that's the pivot language). That will need to extract +</I>><i> the string from the source, inject it in the lang file, and the diff +</I>><i> will appear on the report page then. No need for anyone to play with +</I>><i> PHP code, you will only edit the .lang files. +</I> +That's what I see now: + +украї́нська мо́ва (wrong, by the way. It should be "Українська". I wrote +Oliver about this, but nobody cares :'( ): + +3 / 95 100% (looks like a cipher, 3 files, 95 messages, I guess) + +2 untranslated (heh? ";page_title" and ";Mageia 2". Penalty for +copy-pasting diff to the .lang, I guess ;) ) + +Français (fr): + +3 / 93 98% + +7 missing 8 untranslated (15/98*100 + 98% = 113.3%) + +looking further: +OK+1 (must be bonus points for 13.3% ;) ) + +><i> And there won't be fuzzy matches. The string will be blankly added, or +</I>><i> removed. +</I> +Very sad. It's not a big problem to translate even whole KDE or GNOME with +their docs and wikis (believe me, at least about KDE ;) ). It's a problem +to keep them translated. + +The Rosetta situation with whole string discarding for one comma or one +space is somewhat unacceptable without any chance to have at least +minimalistic translation memory. + +>><i> P.S. Written when struggling to realize where to place the new strings +</I>>><i> from +</I>>><i> <A HREF="http://www.mageia.org/langs/report.php">http://www.mageia.org/langs/report.php</A> +</I>>><i> Thinking about left this without translation in the future. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> ? didn't understand. What was the issue? +</I> +There are no big issues now. But it will end up bad for the following +reasons: + +1. Copy-pasting from report page can break (and will break) the sequence +of messages making a total mess of outdated/new/existing translations. +2. No translation memory, hence no uniform translations and no saving of +time if something has been already translated earlier. +3. Fragmentation with minimal scaling. What is the future? Directory with +dozens of files from different releases (2.uk.lang, 2-1.uk.lang, +3.uk.lang, 3beta.uk.lang, etc.)? Dozen of directories for different +releases? Table with 70 language columns and dozens of rows? + +><i> Note that I'm all to improve and ease the translation process for you +</I>><i> - but being alone, I do it with what my experience has been as well - +</I>><i> that will explain as well why I chose a dead boring simple homemade +</I>><i> framework for the Web site, and not an existing CMS - the situation +</I>><i> wouldn't be the same with an active 3 or 4-seats Web team. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> And again, tell me if I'm missing something or if something can be +</I>><i> improved for you. +</I> +Ok. + +1. If as a result of lacking manpower nothing can be done with the +above-mentioned issues, can we have RSS/Atom feed (automatic) for the +report page to automate the process of updating or automatic messaging to +this list (with no manual sending warnings needed) in the case when +English strings are changed/added? + +2. If it is not hard to do, can the .lang files be regenerated +automatically (with keeping the order of current English pivot)? +Identifying of untranslated strings can be harder, but at least it will +keep the logical order of the messages. + +Thanks for your answer and efforts to improve the current workflow. + +Best regards, +Yuri +</PRE> + + + + + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002919.html">[Mageia-i18n] www pages: about and main index +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002921.html">[Mageia-i18n] www pages: about and main index +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2920">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2920">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2920">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2920">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-i18n">More information about the Mageia-i18n +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> |