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diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20110309/003946.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20110309/003946.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..d92bf869c --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20110309/003946.html @@ -0,0 +1,415 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Mageia-discuss Digest, Vol 7, Issue 20 Cooker Updates + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia-discuss%20Digest%2C%20Vol%207%2C%0A%09Issue%2020%20%20Cooker%20Updates&In-Reply-To=%3C201103100247.10165.laidlaws%40hotkey.net.au%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="003952.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="003947.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Mageia-discuss Digest, Vol 7, Issue 20 Cooker Updates</H1> + <B>Doug Laidlaw</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia-discuss%20Digest%2C%20Vol%207%2C%0A%09Issue%2020%20%20Cooker%20Updates&In-Reply-To=%3C201103100247.10165.laidlaws%40hotkey.net.au%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Mageia-discuss Digest, Vol 7, Issue 20 Cooker Updates">laidlaws at hotkey.net.au + </A><BR> + <I>Wed Mar 9 16:47:10 CET 2011</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="003952.html">[Mageia-discuss] Looking for volunteer for french events +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="003947.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia-discuss Digest, Vol 7, Issue 20 Cooker Updates +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#3946">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#3946">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#3946">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#3946">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>I have been downloading updates for a while. + +When Alpha 2 is released, do I need to download it, or will the brew in the +cauldron automagically re-brand my system as Alpha 2? The DVD would be handy +to have as a more current medium for a re-install. + +Doug, MDV 2010.2 + +On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 01:01:41 am <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">mageia-discuss-request at mageia.org</A> wrote: +><i> Send Mageia-discuss mailing list submissions to +</I>><i> <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">mageia-discuss at mageia.org</A> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit +</I>><i> <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss</A> +</I>><i> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to +</I>><i> <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">mageia-discuss-request at mageia.org</A> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> You can reach the person managing the list at +</I>><i> <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">mageia-discuss-owner at mageia.org</A> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific +</I>><i> than "Re: Contents of Mageia-discuss digest..." +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Today's Topics: +</I>><i> +</I>><i> 1. alpha1 cooker updates? (Tony Blackwell) +</I>><i> 2. Re: alpha1 cooker updates? (Anne nicolas) +</I>><i> 3. Re: Fwd: Sound in Mageia? (Colin Guthrie) +</I>><i> 4. Mirror (Juergen Harms) +</I>><i> 5. Re: Mirror (Oliver Burger) +</I>><i> 6. Re: Fwd: Sound in Mageia? (Wolfgang Bornath) +</I>><i> 7. Re: Mirror (Wolfgang Bornath) +</I>><i> 8. Re: Mirror (Michael Scherer) +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Message: 1 +</I>><i> Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 19:08:50 +1100 +</I>><i> From: Tony Blackwell <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">t.blackwell at uq.net.au</A>> +</I>><i> To: <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">mageia-discuss at mageia.org</A> +</I>><i> Subject: [Mageia-discuss] alpha1 cooker updates? +</I>><i> Message-ID: <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">4D773592.2000704 at uq.net.au</A>> +</I>><i> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Is alpha1 at the stage where I can point it to a cooker repository so +</I>><i> urpmi can find what is on cooker? Is there a utility yet so alpha1 will +</I>><i> notify me when new packages are available for download? +</I>><i> tonyb +</I>><i> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> ------------------------------ +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Message: 2 +</I>><i> Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 12:30:10 +0100 +</I>><i> From: Anne nicolas <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">ennael1 at gmail.com</A>> +</I>><i> To: Mageia general discussions <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">mageia-discuss at mageia.org</A>> +</I>><i> Subject: Re: [Mageia-discuss] alpha1 cooker updates? +</I>><i> Message-ID: +</I>><i> <AANLkTimGSybaUF_54=<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">ap+GqAmtz8hzH83KBb1Kc2+No9 at mail.gmail.com</A>> +</I>><i> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Hi +</I>><i> +</I>><i> 2011/3/9 Tony Blackwell <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">t.blackwell at uq.net.au</A>>: +</I>><i> > Is alpha1 at the stage where I can point it to a cooker repository so +</I>><i> > urpmi can find what is on cooker? Is there a utility yet so alpha1 will +</I>><i> > notify me when new packages are available for download? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> you mean cauldron ? :) +</I>><i> sure have a look here: +</I>><i> <A HREF="http://mirrors.mageia.org/">http://mirrors.mageia.org/</A> +</I>><i> +</I>><i> mdkonline is not yet imported so notification system for updates is +</I>><i> not ready yet +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Cheers +</I>><i> +</I>><i> > tonyb +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > Op dinsdag 08 maart 2011 13:38:36 schreef Wolfgang Bornath: +</I>><i> >> 2011/3/8 Colin Guthrie <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">mageia at colin.guthr.ie</A>>: +</I>><i> >>> Out of curiosity, what did you change it from and to? Can you supply +</I>><i> >>> the "pacmd list" output (just want to double check that the default +</I>><i> >>> profiles/ports are sensible on your h/w). +</I>><i> >> +</I>><i> >> I installed phonon-xine with its dependencies and then in the +</I>><i> >> multimedia section of the KDE configuration I put phonon-xine on top +</I>><i> >> of the list in the backend tab (before it showed only +</I>><i> >> phonon-gstreamer). +</I>><i> >> After that all sound applications worked (dragon, amarok, kscd, vlc, +</I>><i> >> firefox plugins, etc.). +</I>><i> >> +</I>><i> >> See output of "pacmd list" attached. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > i had a similar problem, but that was codec related of the gstreamer. on +</I>><i> > my machine, phonon-xine worked a lot better than phonon-gstreamer... +</I>><i> +</I>><i> The downside generally is that phonon-xine is not developed (neither is +</I>><i> xine itself), full of very annoying bugs, and has terrible support for +</I>><i> pulseaudio. GStreamer fixes all these issues but obviously introduces +</I>><i> others. Personally I don't have any problem with GST, but obviously +</I>><i> milages varies. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> FWIW, Wobo, what you changed was not "Speaker Configuration" as you +</I>><i> previously indicated... you changed the Phonon Backend. So my reasons +</I>><i> for asking the question no longer apply, which is good :) +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Col +</I>><i> +</I>><i> > 'Twas brillig, and Maarten Vanraes at 08/03/11 19:18 did gyre and gimble: +</I>><i> >> Op dinsdag 08 maart 2011 13:38:36 schreef Wolfgang Bornath: +</I>><i> >>> 2011/3/8 Colin Guthrie <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">mageia at colin.guthr.ie</A>>: +</I>><i> >>>> Out of curiosity, what did you change it from and to? Can you supply +</I>><i> >>>> the "pacmd list" output (just want to double check that the default +</I>><i> >>>> profiles/ports are sensible on your h/w). +</I>><i> >>> +</I>><i> >>> I installed phonon-xine with its dependencies and then in the +</I>><i> >>> multimedia section of the KDE configuration I put phonon-xine on top +</I>><i> >>> of the list in the backend tab (before it showed only +</I>><i> >>> phonon-gstreamer). +</I>><i> >>> After that all sound applications worked (dragon, amarok, kscd, vlc, +</I>><i> >>> firefox plugins, etc.). +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > FWIW, Wobo, what you changed was not "Speaker Configuration" as you +</I>><i> > previously indicated... you changed the Phonon Backend. So my reasons +</I>><i> > for asking the question no longer apply, which is good :) +</I>><i> +</I>><i> I was not precise enough. Here is what happened: +</I>><i> +</I>><i> 03/03/2011: +</I>><i> - I had to install task-pulseaudio with all dependencies AND +</I>><i> - backend was only phonon-gstreamer +</I>><i> - in speaker settings of "phonon" I changed sound device from +</I>><i> "Internal Audio" to "High Definition Audio Controller" +</I>><i> It worked. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> 08/03/2011: +</I>><i> After updates this setup did not work anymore. So I +</I>><i> - installed phonon-xine and put it on top in the backend tab +</I>><i> - changed sound device back to "Internal Audio", the output setting +</I>><i> to "Internal Audio Analog Stereo" +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Works in stereo with internal speakers and headphone. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> This is the current working setup with all updates installed (no +</I>><i> /testing repos set). +</I>><i> This is also the setup I created the "pacmd list" output. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Sorry about the unclear report. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> > Talking to people at Switch brought up some facts which Mandriva should +</I>><i> > be aware of: +</I>><i> > ?- There is a heritage of bad experience that has been made with +</I>><i> > Mandriva. ?- It is not the first time that I hear the argument Mageia = +</I>><i> > Mandriva = forgetit. +</I>><i> > ?- Mageia happens at present to be perceived as "just another one of +</I>><i> > those distros that appear and disappear to oblivion" (maybe with a +</I>><i> > component of unfriendlyness towards Linux). +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Yes, I guess this is based on personal opinions and you can't really fight +</I>><i> that. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> > By the way, at my university there was a similar experience: Mandriva was +</I>><i> > part of the officially supported infrastructure (mirror, consultancy), +</I>><i> > with fees paid to Mandriva - that broke in dysharmony due to bad +</I>><i> > administrative response from Mandriva, leaving quite some ill feeling. +</I>><i> > Sorry if I wade through these negative arguments, but these +</I>><i> > beyond-the-enthusiast-user spotlights count. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> You can't compare this setup with anything related to Mageia. Mageia +</I>><i> does not ask to become a consultant to Switch and Mageia does not ask +</I>><i> for any fees. Furthermore "bad administrative response" is one of +</I>><i> those things about Mandriva that Mageia will avoid by all means. It +</I>><i> was caused by lack of manpower of a commercial company, something +</I>><i> which is totally different at Mageia. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> > I think that, when the stable release approaches, a small campaign to +</I>><i> > rectify these prejudices would be an excellent thing. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Time to rectify those prejudices is now, at any time at any place (not +</I>><i> only with mirror providers but in general). +</I>><i> +</I>><i> > But I think that on the long-run there are lessons to be learned from the +</I>><i> > discussion with Switch - mirrors for a stable Mageia should be preferably +</I>><i> > hosted at professionally run mirror sites (who make the kind of +</I>><i> > consideration I quoted above), university solutions should come as +</I>><i> > additional icing. In case of a second round of discussion on how to +</I>><i> > organise Mageia mirrors, it might be a good idea to have that discussion +</I>><i> > with some participation from the mirror sites. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> I can not confirm nor agree to this. As Oliver wrote, 2 universities +</I>><i> already set up a mirror for Mageia and when looking around worldwide +</I>><i> who is hosting a Mandriva mirror you will notice that educational +</I>><i> institutions (aka universities) are the majority. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Using MirrorBrain may or may not be an improvement (I can't judge +</I>><i> this) but IMHO it should not be a criterium to mirror or not. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Of course, if Switch wants it that way then it is up to the Mageia +</I>><i> sysadmins to decide what is the better way - implementing MirrorBrain +</I>><i> to please Switch or not implement it and forget about Switch - not +</I>><i> speaking about other advantages/disadvantages which may come with +</I>><i> Mirrorbrain. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> > I have now arranged for a mirror to be set up at CUI - my old lab at the +</I>><i> > university of Geneva - I hope it will come up in time for alpha-2. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> That sound great, thanks. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> > CUI is glad to help, but that is not a permanent solution - CUI normally +</I>><i> > does not provide this kind of service - permanent mirroring services +</I>><i> > should be provided by Switch as soon as a stable Mageia release becomes +</I>><i> > available. I will pursue the discussion with Switch. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Ie, not permanent, do you know how and why this would stop ? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> > Talking to people at Switch brought up some facts which Mandriva should +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > be aware of: +</I>><i> > - There is a heritage of bad experience that has been made with +</I>><i> > Mandriva. - It is not the first time that I hear the argument Mageia = +</I>><i> > Mandriva +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > = forgetit. +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > - Mageia happens at present to be perceived as "just another one of +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > those distros that appear and disappear to oblivion" (maybe with a +</I>><i> > component of unfriendlyness towards Linux). +</I>><i> +</I>><i> IMHO, our best bet for such case is to wait, so people can make their +</I>><i> minds and reconsider their position. I am not sure that trying to push +</I>><i> now is good. It take time to recover trust and make people forget where +</I>><i> do we come from. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Our problem is that if we say "we are a mandriva fork", people think of +</I>><i> their bad experiences. If we don't, we appear as just yet another +</I>><i> distro. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> So maybe it would be better to engage first with people that do not have +</I>><i> negative experience with Mandriva rather than trying to convince people +</I>><i> who did have ? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> > By the way, at my university there was a similar experience: Mandriva +</I>><i> > was part of the officially supported infrastructure (mirror, +</I>><i> > consultancy), with fees paid to Mandriva - that broke in dysharmony due +</I>><i> > to bad administrative response from Mandriva, leaving quite some ill +</I>><i> > feeling. Sorry if I wade through these negative arguments, but these +</I>><i> > beyond-the-enthusiast-user spotlights count. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Well, we should make clear to people that we started the project for the +</I>><i> same reasons that they broke from Mandriva, and that we are aware of the +</I>><i> problems. But IMHO, we should not try too hard to convince them to help +</I>><i> us, just say that we agree with them. The rest will come by itself. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> > I think that, when the stable release approaches, a small campaign to +</I>><i> > rectify these prejudices would be an excellent thing. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> That sound like a delicate task ( for the aforementioned reasons of +</I>><i> PR ). How would you start ? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> > Talking with the people at Switch who maintain the Switch mirroring +</I>><i> > service, there were also some concrete and technical arguments - I +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > quote, translating from German: +</I>><i> > "the communication with the mirror sites at Mandriva had already been +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > minimal, compared with other distros: announcing releases, checking the +</I>><i> > availability at the mirrors (QA), etc" (which is a mere quote, dont ask +</I>><i> > me to interpret). +</I>><i> > +</I>><i> > Switch is reluctant to maintain a mirror at "assembly language level" +</I>><i> > ("just run rsync every 2 hours"), they would prefer solutions using +</I>><i> > something like MirrorBrain - but probably Mandriva experiences are part +</I>><i> > of the background to this argument. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Well, what do they need more precisely ? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> We understand well that they do not want to micromanage the mirror ( I +</I>><i> think no one does ), but then they can for sure understand that we +</I>><i> cannot adapt to everybody too on our side ( ie, another kind of micro +</I>><i> management ). +</I>><i> +</I>><i> And for mirrorbrain, I do not see how this relate to rsync, as the +</I>><i> software is used on distro side to distribute mirrors lists, if I +</I>><i> understand well. Rsync is still used to mirror around. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> If I remember, the problem of switch was "there is not enough users to +</I>><i> justify the mirroring" ( as you explained before ), and I do not think +</I>><i> this will be solved until one or two years, nor that mirrorbrain will +</I>><i> produce more users by magic. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> So maybe we should just wait to be credible when asking something to +</I>><i> them and be honest about that ? +</I>><i> +</I>><i> > At present, putting a mirror on a univeristy site puts it into an +</I>><i> > environment which is in good match to the straightforward rsync approach +</I>><i> > - correct for the alpha period of Mageia. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Given the high number of university for all others distributions, I +</I>><i> think this is a good match for most of them :) +</I>><i> +</I>><i> > But I think that on the long-run there are lessons to be learned from +</I>><i> > the discussion with Switch - mirrors for a stable Mageia should be +</I>><i> > preferably hosted at professionally run mirror sites (who make the kind +</I>><i> > of consideration I quoted above), university solutions should come as +</I>><i> > additional icing. In case of a second round of discussion on how to +</I>><i> > organise Mageia mirrors, it might be a good idea to have that discussion +</I>><i> > with some participation from the mirror sites. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> I do not understand what you mean by "professionally run mirror". I +</I>><i> think this doesn't mean what you want it to mean. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> Switch.ch core "business" is not to run mirrors, this is to sell +</I>><i> connectivity ( to swiss schools ). The core "business" of a university +</I>><i> is not to host mirrors, but researchers and students. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> From my point of view, there is 2 motivations ( that can be +</I>><i> overlapping ): +</I>><i> - people who run mirrors to help free software +</I>><i> - people who run mirrors because this help them on various level +</I>><i> +</I>><i> A mirror can help to save bandwidth ( for example, free.fr is a french +</I>><i> provider, all linux user will likely go on their mirror as this is +</I>><i> faster ), or to leverage this for peering/trafic negotiation ( see +</I>><i> <A HREF="http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2008/09/peering-and-transit.ars">http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2008/09/peering-and-transit.ars</A> , I +</I>><i> also recommend to see <A HREF="http://www.blogg.ch/uploads/peering-playbook.pdf">http://www.blogg.ch/uploads/peering-playbook.pdf</A> , +</I>><i> given at the end of the article ). +</I>><i> +</I>><i> I think most universities does this to help free software, and because +</I>><i> they use internally. I think most volunteer-run mirrors, like the one of +</I>><i> Wobo fall in this category too. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> On the contrary, I suppose that most operators ( like switch to some +</I>><i> extend, but for free.fr, belgacom, etc ) does this for peering/trafic +</I>><i> reasons, and that mean they need to have enough traffic for this to be +</I>><i> useful for them, and enough users to justify the need. For now, I do not +</I>><i> think we are in a position to be interesting to this kind of mirrors. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> So what we could do is to ask for some metrics so we could now when we +</I>><i> will be able to reach a agreement, and try to have a multiple step +</I>><i> plan : +</I>><i> - first, we try to engage some universities ( or likely minded admins, +</I>><i> such as kernel.org, or others ), to cope with the load of the +</I>><i> distribution. Some being 4/5. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> - based on the feedback, we make sure that the documentation is correct, +</I>><i> that our procedure works, etc, etc. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> - once we have more and more people ( with metrics that have to be +</I>><i> found ), we try to find more mirrors. +</I>><i> +</I>><i> - once we are interesting enough to engage people in the connectivity +</I>><i> business, then we try to engage them ( likely not before one or two +</I>><i> years, maybe more ). +</I></PRE> + + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="003952.html">[Mageia-discuss] Looking for volunteer for french events +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="003947.html">[Mageia-discuss] Mageia-discuss Digest, Vol 7, Issue 20 Cooker Updates +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#3946">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#3946">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#3946">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#3946">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> |