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diff --git a/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101006/002231.html b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101006/002231.html new file mode 100644 index 000000000..be5959d5d --- /dev/null +++ b/zarb-ml/mageia-discuss/20101006/002231.html @@ -0,0 +1,226 @@ +<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> +<HTML> + <HEAD> + <TITLE> [Mageia-discuss] Mageia governance model draft + </TITLE> + <LINK REL="Index" HREF="index.html" > + <LINK REL="made" HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20governance%20model%20draft&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTi%3DPbYmjDyXmb5597LYCJWLauEf%3DWZxbjxnj6Es0%40mail.gmail.com%3E"> + <META NAME="robots" CONTENT="index,nofollow"> + <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> + <LINK REL="Previous" HREF="002230.html"> + <LINK REL="Next" HREF="002233.html"> + </HEAD> + <BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"> + <H1>[Mageia-discuss] Mageia governance model draft</H1> + <B>Romain d'Alverny</B> + <A HREF="mailto:mageia-discuss%40mageia.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BMageia-discuss%5D%20Mageia%20governance%20model%20draft&In-Reply-To=%3CAANLkTi%3DPbYmjDyXmb5597LYCJWLauEf%3DWZxbjxnj6Es0%40mail.gmail.com%3E" + TITLE="[Mageia-discuss] Mageia governance model draft">rdalverny at gmail.com + </A><BR> + <I>Wed Oct 6 00:35:10 CEST 2010</I> + <P><UL> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002230.html">[Mageia-discuss] Wish List +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002233.html">[Mageia-discuss] Is it possible to give a platform for translation of different languages? +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2231">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2231">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2231">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2231">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + <HR> +<!--beginarticle--> +<PRE>On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 18:55, Michael Scherer <<A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">misc at zarb.org</A>> wrote: +><i> Le mardi 05 octobre 2010 à 17:03 +0200, Romain d'Alverny a écrit : +</I>><i> I also think we should use the cooker practices and policy. If we intend +</I>><i> to fork mandriva, we should start at this point. And once we have a +</I>><i> release, then we can discuss to change the policy. +</I> +Makes sense but I would suggest you (whole team) already take into +account questions/improvement suggestions while this first release +(not to apply them at once, but to answer and prepare post-release +work and discussions about them). + +I'm sure we all know the two imperatives here: + - setting up the build system and pushing the first release for the 3 +coming months; using the stable existing policies of Cooker; + - advocate, debate, discuss, develop and improve policies. + +(and, actually, that's valid for almost all other teams as well - +sometimes it may be worse, when there's just no policy yet) + +><i> In the case of packagers, we still need to discuss ACLs on packages. +</I>><i> Even at mandriva, who has the most open policy I have seen in term of +</I>><i> commit rights ( when compared to Ubuntu, Gentoo, Fedora and debian ), we +</I>><i> had ACLs on some packages ( kernel, glibc, etc ). +</I>><i> +</I>><i> So who decide the acl ? The board, the team, a technical comitee ? +</I> +For this kind of discussion/decision, the rule is the same (be it for +packagers or others): + - team discusses; and either: + - reaches an agreement, then inform the Council & Board, then apply; + - can't reach such an agreement, then escalates the issue to +Council, then Board, who will listen, ponder, decide (or return the +discussion to the team). + +Here, provided the Council is not yet constituted, the Board will +directly handle here. + +><i> As I said on irc, I kinda dislike calling a group "master" for +</I>><i> packagers. We are trying to reduce the gap between developers and users, +</I>><i> and as a developer, I am really bothered by such appellation because I +</I>><i> feel it put too much distance between me and non developers, and I think +</I>><i> we try to avoid that. +</I> +I believe we all understand the idea behind it but the wording does +not match everyone's picture. + +It's about having a committed/granted role within the team; or not. +Indeed, there is a difference between someone who has spent some time +in a team, has been recognized by her peers, gets an advanced commit +right for some specific packages, has a say some team-specific +policies, and someone who has not. And there are degrees. + +There's a difference, but that doesn't make a distance. Here, it's a +matter of skills, commitment recognized and approved by peers. We have +to materialize this with roles, name these roles and explain why/how +they interact. + +All the rest is a matter of how you and non-developers interact; can +be distant, or not. + +Please note that it's not a master/slave or dictator/executant +relationship. It's about, as Ahmad said, about experience within the +team, regarding policies, processes; and about acquiring this +experience. See <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apprenticeship">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apprenticeship</A> somehow. + +It could be, indeed, jedi/padawan, "the great beatle"/"young +grasshopper", whatever. We can find a better naming scheme here too +(of course, it's open); but I'd rather use that scheme now and +demonstrate within the cominig months what it is about (and improve it +with time) instead of spending yet another 60-posts exchange to nail +one down. + +(and, it's not just about packagers; it's a generic term to find for +all teams - in that there are three roles: passers-by/followers, +apprentices and masters - will be too in developers, web, +communication, marketing, design, QA, doc, users teams) + +Again, Ahmad nailed it down very well. It's not about building some +"old timers" clique that would oppose new comers. It's about making a +consistent team that manages consistent processes and evolves in a +concerted way, with everyone, but more importantly with its own +members. And the mentoring process is something that should be done in +a matter of 1, 2, 3 months at most. Maybe more, maybe less, depends on +the team. There's no numerus clausus, provided there are enough +mentors. + +That, too, doesn't prevent other people to contribute within the team +(how would one become an apprentice otherwise?). + +And that too, doesn't make it unreachable to anyone who wants to go +there; quite the contrary, that's why we insist on this mentoring +process being defined by/for each team. It's a matter of goodwill, +patience, work and fun. + +><i> More ever, some people think "I am not in the master group, this name +</I>><i> sound made for important people so I cannot do anything", and do not +</I>><i> feel empowered. +</I> +A "master" is not important but in what she masters. Through my time +in schools and universities, most doctors and masters I have met were +neither important or distant in that they didn't take some vain and +inappropriate pride in their title. They were (are) true masters in +many ways still. + +Attitude, kindness speak way more than a title. + +><i> So as we do not want to appear to have copied on Ubuntu ( as this would +</I>><i> be quite the contrary regarding the packaging community ), I think the +</I>><i> name could be changed to a more factual and a less connoted name. +</I> +That's a counter argument as well. Because they use the word "master"? +Wait then, there are a lot of other words they use over there. So +what? They may even have had good ideas in other areas; what should +prevent us from inspiring/taking from others' good ideas? (be it +Ubuntu or anyone else) + +><i> But given the size of the packaging volunteers group compared to the +</I>><i> current group able to mentor ( ie current cooker packagers who +</I>><i> volunteered ), I expect the backlog of people who want to become +</I>><i> packager to be huge for a long time, which itself bring some interesting +</I>><i> issues. +</I> +Indeed. That's tricky. What's crucial is to face this with calm and +determination to find a common working ground. + +>><i> Oh and we ought to setup mailing-lists for each team shortly. +</I>><i> [...] +</I>><i> If we expect discussion to happen, who will take care of subscription, +</I>><i> will this be "free for all" or not ? +</I> +Free for all. + +><i> How do we take care of subgroups ( ie the master/apprentice case that +</I>><i> you proposed ), does it map to the ml subscription or not ? +</I> +Everyone subscribed can post to the list. + +><i> I would recommend a alias <A HREF="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">example-team at mageia.org</A> to be used, so we can +</I>><i> contact the team ( maybe also example-team-leaders@ ), and only for +</I>><i> this, and have mailling list based on task, or group of team ( ie, -dev +</I>><i> would go for packagers and developpers , etc ). Or even something else +</I>><i> than a ml for discussion, after all. +</I> +Mailing-list subscription should be free. We can expect +followers/attendees, "apprentices" and "masters" to manage their ml +subscription by themselves here. + +Hence, provided there is a welcome page for the team explaining how to +join the list, or contacting briefly some people in the team (through +IRC, mail or a drink), I don't see the point to have a +contact-specific ml or alias. + +><i> And as a sysadmin of the project, I would also like to remind that I +</I>><i> will maybe propose to change ml naming ( because the mageia- prefix +</I>><i> should imho be removed ) and location ( ie, use ml.mageia.org domain, as +</I>><i> this would prevent clash in the future for various aliases ) and +</I>><i> software (ie something else than mailman, like sympa ) in a near future. +</I> +Yep. That's a whole other topic though. + + +Thanks for reading, thanks a lot for stating if you fear/wonder if you +misunderstand something, we are in a building process here and your +feedback is valuable in that it helps the whole thing to be better +designed and tried. + +Cheers, + +Romain +</PRE> + + + +<!--endarticle--> + <HR> + <P><UL> + <!--threads--> + <LI>Previous message: <A HREF="002230.html">[Mageia-discuss] Wish List +</A></li> + <LI>Next message: <A HREF="002233.html">[Mageia-discuss] Is it possible to give a platform for translation of different languages? +</A></li> + <LI> <B>Messages sorted by:</B> + <a href="date.html#2231">[ date ]</a> + <a href="thread.html#2231">[ thread ]</a> + <a href="subject.html#2231">[ subject ]</a> + <a href="author.html#2231">[ author ]</a> + </LI> + </UL> + +<hr> +<a href="https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-discuss">More information about the Mageia-discuss +mailing list</a><br> +</body></html> |